I  went to purchase a second hand indoor cage suitable for guinea pigs yesterday from a lovely lady. Anyway, we got talking and she told me she paid over £1000 supposedly for a pure bred KC reg pug bitch puppy (pup is now 5 months old).. she had saved up for ages for her. Anyway, as the pug grew, she became concerned she didn't look like a proper pug, I saw the pup and it has long legs and a longer muzzle. She decided to get the pup DNA tested and discovered the pup is 25% jack russell, 75 % pug :-(
This lady had allowed the "breeder" to deliver the pup, promising to post on all the KC papers....  needless to say, they never showed up. The guy gave a false name and address, his telephone number is no longer in use and he had even given her photos of himself "showing his pugs". Lady has had a lot of support from her vet (who also happens to be mine) who has told her that the guy will have used someone elses genuine show pics and somehow managed to superimpose his own face onto them - a professional fraudster if you like.
There is, presumably, nothing this lady can do now? But just in case anyone in the Lancashire/Merseyside area is looking for a pug, I just wanted to bring their attention to this terrible story. I cannot believe anyone would be foolish enough to allow their pup to be delivered, having never visited the breeders home and seen the Mum with the pups, and then to agree to the papers being posted on, but clearly there are people still naive enough to do this.

Do they still have a copy of the advertisement?  Do they have anything in writing (ie the ad) about it being KC registered?  Has she a receipt?  I agree I can't believe anyone mad enough to do this - but if they have anything at all they could go to tradings standards (local council in most cases), they may already have complaints, but they may not and may persue.

Id leave it as an expensive lesson learnt.

I know we live in a nanny state but to be so silly as to take delivery of a puppy ...like a pizza..then want something done about it after the fact, is daft.

I didn't think DNA tests were that reliable yet.

The pictures of him showing could have been from exemption/companion shows?

No they're not, but if they paid for KC registration then historically a court would give some money back, but with 'designer' breeds now being worth more money than pedigree it may be unlikely.  Of course it'll be difficult to prove whether it's pedigree or not, those DNA tests unlikely to be worth anything but they could prove who the parents are.... but of course they'll have to find the breeder.

Personally anyone so daft as to not visit, not see the dam at least and to have the pup delivered without papers and handing over all that money... well, can't really print, but it would be nice to stop it happening to other gullible people and getting responsible breeders a bad name....

I don't know if they still have a copy of the online ad, but can find out as I have her mobile number. That is probably her only hope as presumably there is a chance they could be traced through it. I hate the idea of someone getting away with this, they must have been laughing to themselves as they drove away from the ladies house. But it really is her own fault.

"I didn't think DNA tests were that reliable yet."

No, neither did I tbh, but this is what she told me anyway.

I agree the pic could have been taken at a local fun dog show.

yes :-( some people are too trusting, but with the original ad at least there's some 'proof' of the exchange, I like to give a 'contract' signed by both parties and also a receipt for the cash, plus of course KC registration papers where appropriate, I have sold one litter without, but that was fully explained as to why, plus pedigree given and the opportunity for working register papers with my affix on - which two of the litter are (one mine) plus hopefully one other.... I didn't want to deny these pups even though to get any form of KC registration I had to 'deny' who the sire was :-(

Trading standards may be able to track them down, or watch out of more ads from these con artists... shocking how they're happy just to let the pups go for cash, I had not knowing about my pups

I doubt Trading Standards will be able to track them down if all the details they gave were false? Expensive lesson learnt, hopefully.

that's why I suggested finding the original advert... with the phone number that actually was theirs.....

I've lost count of the amount of folk who have shown me pics of their Chihuahuas.  I can see the JR in them so quickly, I don't know how folk miss it.  Although several have said they thought they had found a "bargain."

I despair sometimes.

Sorry but those DNA tests are not acurate.  Seen a few Pugs with longer legs etc. who are actual Pugs, just from dogs that may not be of the "breed standard" and more the pet types. 

I have seen an awful lot of "Pure bred pugs" bought as such, who are very obviously nothing of the sort, and very often crossed with JR.  Sorry can't be of help, but it seems to be a problem in that area, someone sent me a link to an ad. at the end of last year for a pug litter - willing ot deliver anywhere on Merseyside ON CHRISTMAS DAY for an extra charge!  From the pic it was dubious the pups were 100% pug, but hard to say on babes.  IF they still have a copy of the pic perhaps they could sent it to one of us pug folk?  We might recognise the dogs or even the owner.  Would have to think it actually was a show person, but all things are possible.

Thanks Gwen and everyone else for your replies, but I don't think they have the ad saved :-( I have seen the pup in the flesh and whilst I do not know anything about pugs, I do not believe for one minute that this puppy is pure pug! The only thing that resembles a pug is the colouring - fawn with a black mask.  Everything else points to it not being pure bred... the false name and address, the tel number no longer being active and the fact that the KC papers were promised but never arrived, oh and the fact that they delivered the pup, with the owner never invited to see Mum with pups.
I can't imagine it being a show person, but as you say anything is possible. Wouldn't be at all surprised if it was the same fraudster that was happy to deliver pups on Christmas day.

> I've lost count of the amount of folk who have shown me pics of their Chihuahuas.  I can see the JR in them so quickly, I don't know how folk miss it.

I saw an ad in my local pet shop window yesterday, selling a long-coat Chi and describing it as having a "deer head". I've not heard this term used before regarding Chi's, have you?

Oh yes!  :-)  :-)  :-)

It is the term used by owners of Chi's with ummmm,,  shall we say incorrect type?

LOL!  I think you know the type of people who would advertise in the pet shop window!

I once had a very rude lady shout at me when I told her that you couldn't show a "deer head" and she thought I was jealous because I don't have any.  The term came for the states.  Wish you could see the look on my face!  ROFL!

I am trying to envisage a "deers head" on a Chi? Fancy being that ignorant about your breed to put an obvious fault in an advert, it would be like me putting dachsie pups with much sought after "eastie westie" feet.

> It is the term used by owners of Chi's with ummmm,,  shall we say incorrect type?

Ah, thank you Jean :)

> I am trying to envisage a "deers head" on a Chi?

So am I, Rhona! As far as I know they should have round 'apple' heads (but its decades since I really looked at Chi's, I had once a friend who showed them). I think the American ones have different ears?

Jean, how do they differ? Are they like the 'JRT' ones you have seen? Why would a 'deer head' be more desirable than the breed standard?

I cannot believe anyone would be foolish enough to allow their pup to be delivered, having never visited the breeders home and seen the Mum with the pups, and then to agree to the papers being posted on, but clearly there are people still naive enough to do this.

Nope, I can't believe it either! :-D But it keeps happening doesn't it? These scammers keep finding people to scam.........

The message just isn't getting through to the public that you don't buy pups this way.

Maybe we should all hit Twitter, Fb etc at Xmas time with a message about it and see if it will filter through to the masses?????????

I think that is a brilliant idea Carrington, certainly worth a try!

The local pets and accessories fb page where I saw the ad for the indoor piggy cage on that I bought from this lady, is full of puppy ads :-( I don't know why it shocked me, but I genuinely didn't expect to see such ads on such a random page. Horrible.

> Jean, how do they differ?

In my opinion, the Chi at the top of this article is a so called "deerhead", it is nothing like the type that I am looking at here at home! 

http://akc.smallbreeddogs.net/deer_head_chihuahua/deer_head_chihuahua.html

I agree a the top one looks like deer head as I understand it. It does seem to be an american term is it allowed in american standard then ?

No - well not the AKC one according to that article.

No the required head type is an Apple shape

Extract from AKC standard
Head
A well rounded "apple dome" skull, with or without molera. Expression - Saucy. Eyes - Full, but not protruding, balanced, set well apart-luminous dark or luminous ruby. (Light eyes in blond or white-colored dogs permissible.) Ears - Large, erect type ears, held more upright when alert, but flaring to the sides at a 45 degree angle when in repose, giving breadth between the ears. Muzzle - Moderately short, slightly pointed. Cheeks and jaws lean. Nose - Self-colored in blond types, or black. In moles, blues, and chocolates, they are self-colored. In blond types, pink nose permissible. Bite - Level or scissors. Overshot or undershot bite, or any distortion of the bite or jaw, should be penalized as a serious fault. Disqualifications - Broken down or cropped ears.
..............

I'm not sure that a deerhead can be shown anywhere, as it is certainly not as described in the standard.  If you look at the rest of the article, it is not something that comes from anyone who knows anything about "proper" Chihuahuas.  First off, the average weight being 2lbs is a load of cobblers.  We all know the BYB's use this as an advertising ploy.  :-(

The correct weight for an adult in the show ring is 4-6lbs.  As this is still a very small dog, why would you want a 2lbs runt?

And they mention longhaired and shorthaired.  Only a pet owner would use that expression.  There are Chihuahua Long Coats and Chihuahua Smooth Coats.  Hair, whether it be short or long doesn't come into it.

So, as far as I am aware, the American standard is almost the same as the Uk Kennel Club's.  However, if there is also an American  Deerhead Chihuahua Club, I guess we shouldn't be surprised!  :-)

Thank you that's really interesting I have found on some chi forums that the term is used as an alternative ie either or depending on preference . Quite strange after what I have now seen. Maybe there is a deerheard club ???
Just saw a beautiful chi applehead smooth coat walking down the road would love to have known if he was. Really a good one

It does make you wonder about breeders who try to pass off obvious faults a "types".  I was directed to a Pug website which makes all sorts of ludicrous claims about colours, they seem to think that colour genetics is a bit like mixing paint, and state that by mating their Apricot to a Black they hope to poroduce "Chocolates and Silvers"!  Mind, as the picture they show of a  silver is just a "smutty" fawn they might well achieve that.  They are also derisory about the breeders who insist that pugs don't come in Brindle or White, and have pics of a bunch of cross breds to prove their point, including Brindles who are very Frenchi to look at and a white with a distinct Chi look about the head.  The only one who appears to be all pug is a poor little Albino.

Must admit I don't like the look of the deer head chihuahua! I thought they were all supposed to have the apple shaped head, mind I don't know that much about the breed as have never owned one.

We could start an 'Irish Setter Cavalier' club for the big rubies ..or the 'Beagle Cav club' for the long/plain faced ones.

Or 'Welsh springer Cav club' for those who have litters of 10 and 11 pups, huge in size and covered with ticking.

The list is endless Jean ..lol :-)

I'm still laughing at Rhodach's dachsie pups with much sought after "eastie westie" feet.  I've got this vision of roly poly puddings falling over their own feet.