Hi all.(sorry a bit of an epic) Must share with you my experience last night and check you think am doing the right thing. Well you expect sleepless nights with new mum and pups but last night was something else. No sleep whatsoever and couldnt figure out why until it dawned on me as the day dawned!! Mum whelped on Friday night. Five healthy pups. All went well and  vet check passed. Mum being the perfect mum (second litter). Just the usual for me, running around with water, saving squashed pups, seeing to mums every need etc etc Quick power naps in between. Around 11 oclock last night, it was like a button had been pressed and my girl turned into a totally distressed, demented, neurotic dog. She was pacing around, searching in boxes, under chairs, as if she had lost a pup. She would jump in and out of the whelping box, crying loudly, sometimes barking.Cant explain how upset she was. She wouldnt be calmed by me and would stop and feed the pups more than she would have normally, but wouldnt stay in the box, but jump out and start the pacing and crying. If the pups made the slightest noise she would (and still is) stare at them and start crying as though it wasnt normal and they were hurt. It was awful. She then started to pick the pups up and put them on the settee near where I was supposed to be sleeping. (one foot away from whelping box, which is covered like a den) I was firm with her here as  was scared she would drop them, so kept taking her back to the box. Then I decided to move the box into the front of the settee, so that I could literally hold her paw for comfort!! that didnt work.  Got my Book of the Bitch out to check symptoms of eclampsia but discounted that. In and out of whether  to go or not to go to the emergency vet (you know what I mean) A long, long night. After she went out for her wee this morning, she seemed a little calmer. That is when it dawned.! Her mum is at my daughter's house for a couple of days. Usually, around 10 at night, I let the two of them out and without fail, her mum starts barking. Its the only time I allow this, as I need them to have their wee, and me going out to them makes no difference. Its only a matter of five minutes and relatively early so I go along with it. I just take it for granted but the reason she barks is that we back on to a sort of dell, at tree top level. The dell has badgers, foxes etc etc and the lady next door feeds the badgers every night. When I let my girl out last night, on her own, of course,  she did the barking and I had to bring her in because it was louder and longer than her mum. That must have been the trigger. She must have sensed the animals around and panicked and thought that they were going to come and take her pups. Doh! But as I said, its just a normal nightly routine and it never entered my head. Stupid really.She is still bothered by even the slightest squeal from the pups and isn't totally calm but  better than in the night! I am now thinking of bringing her mum back because, although she wont let her in the same room at the moment, she can go out last thing with her and go through the usual routine. Maybe she will feel safer with another dog in the house? I will also go out first and make a hell of a row to frighten off any very close foxes in the hope that the girls wont feel the need to "chase" them away. Would appreciate your comments and tell me if you think that this is what caused the problem last night. Thank-you

I would think its a calcium drop that caused her to react in this way ... cool some fresh milk in the freezer and give her a drink or some ice cream ... depending on her breed some need calcium supplements if not sure best contact your vet for advice.

Oh really?, right, funnily enough I did give her some ice cream in the night! Will give her some more. Thank-you

Going to vet tomorrow, just to give her another check over.

It sounds like her normal routine has been upset, her dam isn't  there and she has been looking for her.

Low calcium doesn't normally happen this early unless she has been getting extra calcium throughout the pregnancy which can stop the body processing it properly post whelping. Giving her goats milk, cottage cheese etc. on top of her normal diet won't do any harm.

If she still hasn't settled then I would take her to the vet for blood tests.

Gosh, had not thought of her missing her mum. She gets very testy with her when she is pregnant and then with the litter, wont let her in the room but she can see her passing up and down through the baby gate. Will get her back tonight as missing her myself. Yes, going to vet tomorrow regardless, just to be on the safe side. She is still a little hyper but has calmed down a lot since last night. Is now feeding the pups and staying with them to do toileting. Last night she wasnt  toileting them at all so I had to take that over. thank-you

Sorry, the calcium point. No have not been giving her extra at any time.

My bitch did this a couple of days after whelping.  Not moving pups about, but looking around as if searching for something, staring at the pups and whining. No reason for it, pups were safe in a den like box, she was feeding them OK. She herself was eating and drinking fine. It lasted maybe a couple of days then just stopped.

Oh good, light at the end of the tunnel then if its the same as your girl. Its so distressing. The pups were getting stressed too as she was flinging em about. Good job they are made of rubber!! lol  She is now quietly feeding them while Ive nipped upstairs to the PC. A definite move forward. Back I go down. lol Mum coming home shortly too.

actually my bitch did this after 2 litters and at the same stage (I checked my books), I was advised by a breeder who in my breed to put milk in the freezer to cool quickly that in giving her the milk  a couple of times a day would give her a calcium boost , it worked each time after a couple of days she was fine.

Oh right, does sound like that then. Not the foxes or badgers lol. Well I did give her some ice cream during the whelping but not too much, and then some after reading these posts. She is calm and lovely at the moment. In the box with the pups all the time now, which of course is normal at this stage, but last night, she just didnt go in and stay. When you say milk, do you mean something like Nutro Lac ? which I have in for the pups.? 

If I have opened milk for supplementing pups then I will give Mum some, other wise it is goats milk which comes in "long life" now so easy to keep as it doesn't need refrigerating till it has been opened, mine won't drink plain water post whelping and up to when the pups are weaned.

Oh brill. thank-you so much. x

goats if you have some ... but  ice cold.

why ice cold??

it gives a boost to the system..

> it gives a boost to the system..

Not sure what system or why :) but I would imagine it will be palatable and tempting.

stoogie poogie....dont know how it works as not med trained but do know that it works and thats good enough for me.:)

Ah right, I understand. Thank-you so much everyone. So so appreciated. X

>goats if you have some ... but  ice cold.

There are rumours on the net that the shock of ice-cold drinks to dogs can send the stomach into spasm and can actually trigger bloating; I don't know how true it is but I'd be cautious.

I would bring mum back too.  My girls aren't allowed in the room with mum and pups but mum likes to know her 'pack' is around to help her.  My girls always get extra protective when their is a litter in the house even before they have seen any pups!  The all scan the horizon in the garden and do laps of the fence checking for intruders!lol.  The cat is also not very welcome with the entire pack when their is pups too.

Gosh, the bloat thing. I wonder if that is just breeds that are already susceptible to bloat.

Mum is back now. So funny, she hasnt been here since before the whelping but as soon as she walked into the house, she went straight upstairs to her bed. She wasnt prepared to meet daughter head on just now, before being formally requested for her presence!!!! They are not daft are they! Remains to be seen what happens at bedtime, whether mum will join daughter for a last run and bark in the garden. Last litter, daughter wouldnt let mum anywhere near the pups until they were 4 1/2 weeks.

Just an update. All well yesterday during the evening. Sat watching the closing ceremony feeling all warm inside watching mum and pups together. Had a thought at the back of my head that maybe I should be trying to have a sleep whilst she was content and quiet. Wish I had. Switched telly off and lay down on settee at 12. 10 minutes later it all started again, but I would say worse than last night. She was doing everything else plus constantly bringing the same pup out of the box and walking around with it. Depositing it on me, then I insist that she goes back into the box. During that long night, re-denned her whelping box to make it even more enclosed. Tried cooling the room a bit. Tried different bedding - shredded newspaper or vet bed etc, tried un-denning the box. Tried everything I could think of. Waited for vet to open at 8.30 and managed to get an appointment at 10 to 10. Grabbed grandaughter from her dad to help me and off we went. Vet did a thorough check of pups again. Said they were all doing very well.  Thoroughly checked my girl over. No problems. He said he would check her calcium levels and ring me when he had the results. Rang as soon as I had got home and levels were absolutely fine. He just thinks that she just hasnt settled after the whelping yet and that possibly she thinks she may have lost a pup and is constantly searching for it. My PC is upstairs and keep nipping up to do this post, but can here every little squeek so can get back down very quickly, but interestingly, she doesnt take the pup out when I am not in the room. Still whines and whimpers, but leaves them in the box. I am not sure now what else i can do to make her feel more secure and wonder if it is just a matter of her getting over the whelping, post whelping pain and realisation that she has all the pups she whelped.

Is it always when you turn the telly off, switch the lights off and settle down to sleep?  Shes OK during the day??

If so, it maybe she doesn't like the shut down. Maybe I would leave a lamp on, leave the TV on quiet and maybe trying to sleep propped up on  a chair. Very odd, hope its better tonight.

I was thinking the same rocknrose.

Well its considerably worse when I close the telly down. I do leave a small light on as obviously up and down all night Since being back from the vet, she is slightly less stressed. Still bringing me that same pup (its the smallest, but gaining weight on a par with the rest) and still insisting that she puts it back in the box. Have now started giving her, her favourite treat every time the pup is put back into the box, with plenty of "good girls" She usually then settles down to feed them all, even though this has happened a few minutes before, she still feeds them again, or attempts to anyway, as they are usually full and asleep after every feed. It is a bit of a strange one. Hoping it will just gradually settle down. Maybe I will try with the telly on low and see what happens. thank-you

It is strange that it is the same pup each time, I have heard of this happening with a poorly pup which has later died but yours have been checked over by the vet and no problems found.

I had a cat many years ago and she kept hiding one of her kittens, always the same one, when I got them sexed it was the only male,looked identical to one of the others bar for a darker patch on his chest, don't know if this had anything to do with it, she only stopped when he got too big to carry.

Oh that made a shiver go down my spine. I certainly hope that isnt the case. All pups are well, fat, round and twitchy and quiet in between their feeds I do watch that this smaller pup is not bullied by the other bigger ones, although weight wise they are not that much bigger. I watch that they are not knocking her off the teats. Maybe mum is doing the same??? Maybe she wants to feed it separately? Wouldnt that be clever of her? All lovely and quiet at the moment. Managed to have a nap and dont feel as zombieish now. Thinking back to her last litter (my brain is a bit frayed) I dont remember all this kerfuffle and nothing in my log, but I certainly remember her concentrating a lot on the smallest boy.

Has there been any major changes since her last litter, moving house,changes in humans present etc. to make her react so differently this time?

Was the lady feeding the wildlife around then too?

Have your 2 bitches been allowed to see each other yet, did they go for the final wee of the night together?

No major changes at all. All the same as last time, and yes, the lady next door has been feeding the badgers for 20 years.

Grandma came home yesterday but mum didnt join her at going out time. when she came home, she didnt even bother to go into the living room area, she went straight upstairs to her bed. Mum visited with her a couple of times with a waggy tail, but didnt get too close. Today, they met outside the whelping room and had a bit of a row. My fault. I have a baby gate separating the whelping area from the hall but I had left it open for mum to come through and see her mum if she so desired but I think it was too close too soon. Grandma is still preferring to stay upstairs out of the way. If she barks when she hears something outside, mum joins in with her as she normally would. Tonight, I am hoping to get them both out for the last wee because I feel that will confirm their relationship again.

Well it s a lovely sunny day here and mum and pups are calm and settled with doors open to let the sunshine in, surprising after another awful night. Its like a button has been pressed. Again, now, she is happily feeding and caring for her pups and you wouldnt know, except by looking at my drawn face, that anything was bothering her. Let her out with mum last night but kept her on the lead, which was lucky, because she was really aggressive towards mum. Later when she went upstairs to my bedroom where mum was sleeping, it was as though her mum wasnt there!! Must have been too close to the pups downstairs, even outside.
Well after looking at everything, I am pretty sure now that its the wild animal thing. What else could it be? Crazy at night and calm by day!! Tonight I will see if letting her out the front door makes a difference. We do get animals around there but if she stays in the front bit, with me on the other end of the lead, she might not get a scent or sound. My 15 year old grandaughter just looked after them all while I escaped to do some essential shopping. All was well while I was out. She did come up with an idea though. (She is a very doggy girl!!) Why not put a litter tray down for her in the room nearest the outside door, just until the pups are less vulnerable. Then she wont have to go out at all. This of course, throws up all sorts of doubts, like teaching her to toilet inside, which is not really what we want but to save all this stress to her and the pups, might be an idea. What do you think?

I think its the night time routine rather than the toileting issue. Maybe you need a fresh pair of eyes to have a look and see if there is anything happening.

Sorry that the nights are still being a problem, as she is fine during the day it has to be something after dark that is upsetting her, I was wondering if  DAP [dog appeasing pheromones], Bach Rescue Remedy or essential oils like Lavender would calm her down, they could be used all day and maybe increased at night.

Maybe someone else can come up with a solution

Yes, my daughter (as my brain is like fluff at the moment) asked me if I knew of doggy equivalents of Bach etc. Had a long sleep to catch up this afternoon and feel better and clearer headed and am sure I have lavender oils somewhere. Failing that will definitely have a try with Dap, which i assume you can get at P A H??

I know you will probably disapprove of this but in my angst last night, and not coming up with any solutions I did one of those online vet enquiry things. I got a reply from a specialist dog vet in the USA. Her reply was, extremely controversial, but I can see where she is coming from. She is basically saying that I am buying in to my girl's anxiety and making the situation a whole lot worse. That its up to her to sort the problem out and not me. Its quite a long reply which I will post if anyone is interested. The controversial part is that she says I should put her in a small room, with no outside view and then go out of the house for 10 hours (cripes!!!!!) and let her sort herself out. (as I said, she explains it much longer terms than that) The thought of leaving  a mum with 5 day old pups is of course, out of the question but i do see what she is saying about the attention giving. If this happens again, I will try not to show her that I am terrified out of my mind, and as much as I can without pups being harmed, ignore her behaviour, turn my back etc. This does make sense because we all know that if our dogs are upset about something, it makes them a lot worse if you make a big deal of it and give too much sympathy. My last resort, tomorrow, is that there is a dog behavourist/trainer in my town who is held in high esteem. She also breeds dogs for the police. I will ring her if we have another bad night, tonight. Probably cost an arm and a leg but will see what she has to say. - Found the lavender, thanks for that!!

Could it be when the house goes quiet/dark, the wild life comes closer and she can hear/smell them?
Why not try leaving the lights&TV on, everything on for noise factor (to cover the outside noises)...
Or could you maybe move her upstairs in your bedroom?
Putting a radio outside to keep the wild things away?

Hi Noora, yes, have been doing that, leaving the telly on and light etc. The room she is in is a middle room so that you cant hear what is going on outside. She would hear more from my bedroom. When the badgers come into next doors garden at night, they get bowls of fruit in metal bowls, They knock the lids off and we hear them every bloomin night when we are in bed (the girls sleep in their own beds in my room) It always disturbs them but luckily, in the room downstairs, we cant hear that at all. It really is the best room for her to be in away from outside noises. I am beginning to think more and more that she actually came face to face with a badger or fox on that first night and that must have been the trigger. I am thinking of taking her out the front tonight, just in the front garden for a wee. the only problem with that is that it in itself is unusual so that might cause her to react as well. Poor girl. Not a foot wrong all day again. Hardly had to do a thing as she is being a totally wonderful mum. You would not dream that she would turn into a screaming banshee at midnight. Will see what the night brings. xxxx

Don't forget that she can hear things you can't so although you can't hear the noise she will be able to.

I have no suggestions to offer you but do hope that things start to improve as the babies get older

Yes, you are right, but that is normal here. Always foxes and badgers about. Never worried her before but obviously things are different when you have young kids lol. I still think she must have had a closer encounter though.

I have used the normal Bach Rescue Remedy on my dogs with no problem, I start it about a week before the time I think there may be problems[ fireworks ], you don't have the time scale but using it throughout the day will allow some affect before bed time.

Lavender oil on bedding or from an automatic air freshner has also worked in the past, it helps me sleep better too.

Just a thought. Is it ok to use Bach on dogs who are feeding their pups. Just mentioned it to my daughter who studied aromatherapy years ago and she said when she was pregnant there were certain things, like burning certain oils, that she could not use while breast feeding. she thought that lavender may have been one of those oils but is going to check on it when she gets home. Was unsure about bach and pregnancy.

The only thing it states to be aware of is the alcohol base and being sure to dilute it during pregnancy, seems like there is a Bach Flower Remedy for every feeling during pregnancy and after.

Lavender Oil seems to get mixed reactions, inhaling appears safe, ingesting or on skin can cause problems in early pregnancy.

Right, thank-you. Daughter called out tonight so cant look back at her records so thanks for getting back to me.