Hello we have just bought our first dog and we did a lot of research to a breed that would suit our large family so for the last two weeks we have a new member of our family a very beautiful black male lab he is extremely well behaved in most things.... I know they like to chew which he does and has lots of toys but it's the biting he got loads worse he bites the kids all the time the youngest who is three, he goes for his legs even without clothing and my seven year old will not even come down in the morning ( that's when he is his worst) ive looked at all ways to stop him from doing this and I'm at a loss, we are due to get a trainer in who come to the house but that's not until his second injections and he's allowed out we have met her at a puppy party at the vets and I did ask but the advice she gave ( yelling loud and to ignore him turning our backs on him etc) but as you can imagine is not easy to teach a 3year old to do that or a seven year old who is very nearvous around him when he's being bitty, I know it's normal behaviour but it's very frustrating any advice would be welcome. Thanks
P.s I know this our first dog and we have gone into lots of reading and discussions before getting our dog. We have a crate and he loves it in there he also goes all night now without a accident I'm not sure I'm crate training him right as it's the holidays and the kids are home so he only goes in at night,to be fed, when we are eating, if I have to go out, and when his biting and barking is getting very bad.

Congratulations on your new arrival! If your younger child is frightened of being bitten, what I would advise for you is to get a houseline to keep puppy on in the morning. Hold it in your hand (he'll probably just chew it if it's dragging along the floor) and whenever he gets too much for your youngest, you can move him away and give him something suitable to play with.

You cannot expect a puppy to not want to go near your three-year old. They pretty much smell of food all the time, and of course have high squeaky voices which is an invitation to play, so the best way to go about it is to make sure their meetings are managed really well to minimise stress for your children!

Your puppy needs to learn what is acceptable to chew and what isn't. I think your youngest will be too young for this, but if you have the houseline to control puppy then your older child should be able to do this. Whenever the puppy gets too much, tugging on clothes or whatever, the children should stay still and ignore the attention, wait until you or your partner can remove the puppy from the situation. I would also invest in a baby gate. That way the puppy can be separated for a time out, but will still be around your children and learning to be calm around them.

The best advice I got with my dog puppy biting was to read this; http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0;wap2

What toys does your puppy have to encourage chewing? Keep in mind that squeaky toys, the 'squeak squeak' is rewarding to a puppy and encourages them to keep biting, I would be weary about giving any squeaky toys because the puppy might make the association of squeaking to keep on chewing/biting, and if a 3-year old with a high pitched voice squeals after being bitten.. the puppy might be making the wrong association and carry on mouthing.

You have lots of fun ahead of you, and you'll get loads of great advice from here! I am only a novice compared to some members who have raised tons of puppies, where as I am only speaking of experience from my most recent puppy :)

Josh

Ian Dunbar has written an article called "the bite stops here" explaining how to correct this behaviour.

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0;wap2

Hope it helps

Ian Dunbars website dogstardaily http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads has lots of good articles, and one especially about puppies and children. 

Are you saying that the behaviourist won't come out until he has had his second jab or is that just coincidence? Seems strange if that's the case as you obviously need help now and the advice I would be giving you is not dependent on the pup being able to go out in the world.

The books recommended give great advice... also as already mentioned a gate is definitely a good idea.

Whenever a family with young children are interested in a puppy from me I am always wary for this very reason... a puppy will zoom in on your youngest children as they are smaller, noisier and appear the best playmate for a young pup in thier eyes.
If I allow a pup to go to a family I always advise them to have a crate or playpen for a young pup especially during the times when youngsters are running around playing... as you will end up with a very excitable dog , they become aroused by the actions and play of young children which can cause them to nip during play as they would with thier litter mates.
I would advise them to allow play with children that is supervised for short periods through the day ... a pup of 9 wks which I am presuming is similar to the age of your pup needs lots of rest with short periods of play and training.... other wise you may end up with a pup who will always be boisterous.
My latest pup I bred his mother and have his grandmother was the worst nipper I have ever had , some puppies can be worse than others and some puppies dont nip at all.
I tried all the standard training to combat it but it was very difficult... eventually having spoken to a behaviorist friend he advised me to try the 'no' and treat scenario which worked very well he  picked it up very quickly , we now have a very sedate calm 15m old boy who has the most wonderful temperament.

You can give this a try if you wish its hard to explain .. put pup in the sit in front of you , have bag of treats available, put 1 treat in either hand , let him see the treat , when he goes to nip or mouth your hand for the treat say 'no' in a firm but kind way , the second he stops and waits then offer the treat from the opposite hand. This is all about timing .
Once pup gets the hang of 'no' then treat , you need follow it up during the day with treats in your pocket so when he stops nipping you treat ...
Also make sure you always have a toy in your pocket so that if  he nips you say 'no' then give the toy he will soon learn that he is allowed to chew the toy but not you or members of the family.
There is no quick fix you need to train and you get out of it what you are prepared to put it.

Good luck with your new bundle ... :)

I admit that this is the reason I won't sell to families with children so young.  Kids are hard work anyway, so to ask people to put into place all the criteria for a puppy sounds a mammoth task!

Very young kids are so high pitched and excitable that it is an invitation to bite.  Just as if they were playing with littermates.  I don't quite understand why you would have someone to come in for an 8 week old puppy to be honest.  Taking pup to class, and then you get to learn how to train, sounds a sensible option to me.  I think that starryeyes has given you some excellent advice too.

I think that your crate training does sound about right.  Pup seeing it as a good place to sleep is important, and I'm guessing that you already know that the children shouldn't disturb pup in his crate from all the reading you have done.  I hope that you can get some tips from Ian Dunbar's article, as he is a great guy to learn from.

Good Luck with your pup, I am sure that the children will eventually look at him as their best friend.  :-)

The biting is very normal but it really hurts and children will really suffer. The more the puppy gets to bite your toddlers the more he'll want to do it as for him it is very rewarding. Pup is simply carrying over behaviour he would do with littermates.

You have to get this under control by using kind but consistent methods and you have been given some excellent advice thus far- teaching a 'leave' command is a good idea as it will help the pup to master impulse control, you can use the method described above. Do read up on the link provided to Ian Dunbar's guide on bite inhibition- this teaches the pup that mouthing that hurts results in social exclusion/disapproval and , again, he will learn to control his biting.

I would advise you to get a puppy playpen where pup can enjoy a degree of freedom but you can be reassured that he and the children are kept separate until you can supervise proceedings. Both pup and children need to know that you are watching over and providing clear boundaries on behaviour all round, able to intervene when things get out of hand. If you cannot supervise then pup goes into playpen.

I´m not very knowledgeable about dog behaviour but it sounds to me like the pup is just very excited at having his family up and about in the morning after having spent the night presumably alone.  How about you or your partner getting up a bit earlier and spending some time with the pup on his own, playing, fussing him etc so that when the kids get up he could then be penned for a while without feeling his whole life is being spent crated or penned.

I've had pups around very small kids and this behaviour is a nightmare.  I've been there and got the t-shirt(which was then eaten by the pup!!lol).  To be honest, the houseleash and crating are the only way to go.  Separate the puppy and kids until you have a bit more control over the pups(you'll never have control over the kids!).  I like to teach my pups that they shouldn't 'bomb' about the house anyway.  If they want to run around, they can go outside but inside is for calm behaviour.  Once my dogs start tumbling around, they know I put them outside.
Once, I had a rough pup that always went for the pyjama trousers in the morning.  Ripped loads of pairs as little legs made a dash for the sofa away from the crocodile with fur! One morning, my son ran across the room and jumped up and accidently kicked the pup up under the chin, cured that pup straight away!!lol.  Not that I advocate that at all and it was an accident!!  But also remember, mum wouldn't tolerate that sort of rough treatment so maybe you are being slightly soft on him? No means No, and all that?
I've edited this as when I read it back, it looks like I am telling you to hit your pup.  I am absolutely not!  What I mean is, mum would scruff the pup or give a telling or take a time out from the pup, to stop this behaviour.

You already have some options about dealing with this behaviour so do take the time to read the advice the advice you've been given, and the links, there's some really helpful advice in there.

Something else to consider is that you already know quite a lot about the problem you are trying to solve: you know why it happens (excitement, enthusiasm, desire to play), you know where it happens (at the bottom of the stairs or the place where your kids enter the room), and you know when it happens (worse in the mornings).  With all that information it ought to be pretty easy to manage.

* Put a gate at the bottom of the stairs and another at your kitchen door perhaps - keep areas of clear space between your puppy and your children and ask them to call you if they don't want to go into the room so you can be ready with treats and distractions (for both puppy and children!!)
** Pre handle the situation by removing the puppy from those meeting places and doing some training elsewhere to channel the pups energies into something more useful
*** Show your kids how to behave around the puppy - calm and quiet, and show your puppy how to behave around the kids - he can snuggle with them when he's tired and calm but if he's nippy and over exuberant he needs to play that off elsewhere

Your timing isn't ideal - it might have been better for the puppy to arrive after the school holidays when you have more time for 1:1 training but do try and make as much time as you can to show your puppy what is expected of him.  What you are experiencing is very normal behaviour :)  A really good book for you and you puppy is The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - I high recommend it.  You can usually find good secondhand versions but even at full price it's worth the money and way cheaper than a home visit from a trainer

I agree with Freelance biting is normal for a pup.

Thats not why I posted, you wrote - ( yelling loud and to ignore him turning our backs on him etc) - stay well away from anyone comes out with the "yelling" at pups crap, you'll end up messing him up for the rest of his life, so much for modern puppy parties with modern trainers in attendance to, not so supplely , sell their shoddy services.

Hethspaw,

I agree that loud yelling, which is a punishment after all, is not the way to go with a pup. As you say it can mess them up, not least because once they have got used to you yelling on a regular basis they will simply ignore you and then you'll have to yell even harder. On the other hand you scare them witless first time and then they are scared of you.

Turning ones back and standing still may work on a very young pup but one that is bouncing around and rambunctious is likely to follow you and bite more. I guess this is why the likes of Dunbar recommend tethering and tie out stations. Social exclusion hits most pups where it hurts. It is punishment but it is not physical punishment. As we know, pups will exclude each other if things get out of hand and/or mum intervenes to stop the game that gets too rough. So this method seems to tap into a type of punishment dogs understand and can cope with. 

As we know, there is some evidence that canine mothers that aggressively chastise their pups produce more aggressive pups, so direct aggression that hurts is likely to be counter productive.

I agree that loud yelling, which is a punishment after all,

As we are talking about puppy/animal learning then we are talking about the learning theory, in which case, someone yelling at a puppy is not a punishment, a negative punishment is the behaviour of the animal itself, negative punishment behaviour 'witholds' something the animal wants, e.g. I go out without an umbrella on a cloudy day, it rains & I want to keep dry, I cannot keep dry because my behaviour of not taking my umbrella out is the cause of my inability to keep dry.

A positive punishment is the adding of an unwanted consequence as the result of any behaviour of the animal itself, e.g. I forget to take my money with me when I want to catch a bus, the bus conductor refused to carry me as a consequence, the/my behaviour of 'forgetting my money' was the 'positive (adding) punishment behaviour'.
.

Or to put it much more simply: negative punishment is the withdrawal of something pleasant/desirable; positive punishment is the application of something undesirable. However, I agree that  in terms of science the change in behaviour is key- suppression of which indicates whether or not the forgoing stimulus is punishment. Unless, of course, the dog is so psychologically damaged he is in a state of learned helplessness/shutdown.

However, I very much doubt that the first loud yell at a pup would have absolutely no effect- unless he is deaf. It is more than likely that the FIRST time the pup will be startled- thus in that moment the yell is punishment. If you don't yell loud enough it has little if any effect- much depends on the pup's individual threshold. Thereafter the pup may have learned to be startled by your voice and suppress certain behaviours whilst also becoming nervous of you. On the other hand, he may not have been startled enough and you have to yell louder next time and the next, as he gradually habituates to the stimulus. Getting that one trial learning threshold is tricky territory.

1. negative punishment is the withdrawal of something pleasant/desirable;

2. positive punishment is the application of something undesirable

Well no, what that lacks > in the way you wrote < it cannot be translated as Skinners learning theory.

Skinners theory only concerns itself with the animals (any animal) active behaviour & how the active behaviour operates on its environment to generate consquences.

Your translation lacks the emphasis that it is the behaviour of the animal itself which is the cause of the consequences.

A good human/canine example of that is in the video below, around 50 secs in on the second clip it is the humans behaviour causing the negative punishment to himself, the pleasant/desirable outcome of his behaviour is withheld.

The consequence of the dogs behaviour of operating on its environment on the other hand will positively reinforce the dogs behaviour & the behaviour will tend to repeat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edE_UOOeRgA
.

HP, Nice try, unfortunately your MO is known far and wide.

Must you keep dragging threads into this debate over Skinner, technical words and definitions and so on?

The OP asked for advice on a mouthing pup, she got plenty of it and good, there is just no need to go down this road yet again.

Nikita,
Point taken. One has a sense of being sucked into a pointless debate and deliberate obfuscation.

So, back on track, I wonder how the poster is getting on:)

Sorry, that was meant for Hethspaw!  My bad, I should have made that clear :-)

All the same I nearly bit- on a thread about biting- oh the irony! :)

> on a thread about biting- oh the irony!

:-D