Hi all, can anyone tell me what the ruling is regarding the following: If you enter your dog in AV veteran and you are beaten and then you go in to your breed class and win and get BOB can you still compete in the group or would you be considered as a beaten dog having been beaten in AV veteran?

You'd be a beaten dog. 

Only classes that are not based purely on the dog, like Brace, Team, Stud dog etc would not count as beaten.

in that case would the dog be allowed to compeat for best of breed if it was beaten in av befor the breed judgimg?

It could compete in breed classes, including BOB.

I was told that if the dog was beaten in stakes it could not compete in the challenge if beaten - Jess missed the YKC stakes class this weekend wuth Bentley in order to compete in the challenge - a shame for her as she also missed her handling class due to clashing with her breed class! 

If an exhibit is judged as an individual and is beaten then it is a beaten dog and can't continue to compete in the group or BIS, unfortunately the YKC classes are judging the individual dog so the dog becomes a beaten dog but the handling classes are judging the handler so they do not count.

Puppies and Veterans can compete in AV puppy or AV Veteran and if they win they can go forward providing they are not beaten in any other class they may have entered and I think different shows have different rules for the veterans but it always applies to Puppies. A puppy that has competed and remains unbreaten can go forward to group or BPIS the only problem is very few Championship shows have group and BPIS challenges.

I find this very unfortunate really. Some of the Ch. shows hold their qualifiers for the Pup Of The Year competition before the classes, so you pay your money, and take a chance on whether it is before or after your breed class, esp if you have no tickets and are not being judged till later.

e.g - We will not be judged before 12pm at Midland Counties, BUT the POTY class (puppy stakes) is being held at 10.30. There is a note on the schedule which reads "N.B. Puppies are exempt from entry in their breed classes prior to entry in Variety Classes, unless there is a class for the breed for puppies under twelve months of age" Does this mean I can enter the POTY class and still enter my breed class even if I am a beaten puppy in the stakes class???

Does this mean I can enter the POTY class and still enter my breed class even if I am a beaten puppy in the stakes class???

Yes your can.

Not sure if it would have an effect it would have if your pup is beaten by another puppy of your breed and then you go on to beat that puppy in the breed class.

Thanks folks that is basically what i thought, that it would be a beaten dog but it can still get BOB but would not be eligible to compete in the group. Really just wanted to check this out as I have only entered one veteran class last month at our local open show as our dog has just turned 7 she was placed third but there was no breed class so had not entered any other class, but atthe next there is a breed class and I usually like to support them and just wondered about the ruling in the event that we got BOB.

Many thanks for all your help folks.

I entered the champion stakes at one championship show some years ago with Jozi, who was always hard to show until she settled in those days.  She was out of coat so I went into the stakes which were before breed,a dn of course I didn't win,btu it did settle her nicely.

We then won our class, the Bitch CC, and BOB, so of course couldn't go in the group.

I do feel that as the winners of stakes classes can't compete for Group or BIS, then they should count as seperate competitons and the beaten dog rule not apply.

Thing is brainless you can't be BIS if another dog at that show has beaten you or rather your hound. Suppose if you could prove that no hound had beaten you then you could perhaps make a case for entering the group but even then I think the rules say unbeaten so although it may seem a bit unfair rules is rules as they say.

What I meant is that the stakes should be seperate competitons from the judging of breeds, group and BIS, as at championship shows only those in breed can go all the way not those in stakes.

But the stakes are part of the show so if you are a beaten dog at that show in any class you are beaten and therefore can't be Best in show.

That is what I mean they should be seperate from the show itself. 

they should be seperate from the show itself.
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How would you do that?

They would be ruled as a separate competition, (after all they are really as they do not count towards progression to group or BIS, so are a separate competition to that of BOB, leading to Group, leading to BIS) same as other events held in conjunction with the show.

At the moment support for stakes classes is very low. 

I remember being in Houndshow stakes classes filling the ring, and on Saturday just 5 in bitches, and 3 present in dogs ;)  didn't make getting a place very satisfying, though the £5 prize money was enough for a snack.

The second class entry fees are now so high that knowing one might have to miss the stakes anyway makes people loathe to waste £5 per class, to enter stakes alone at CC or even Non CC price with no real win, also doesn't encourage participation.

I do understand the logic of what you are saying but don't see how it could be arranged without a completely different set up to that we have to day.

The first problem starts with Best in Show, how can you have a best in show winner that has been proven not to be best in show because it has been beaten at that show. You would have to call it a contest of the BOB winners so the winner would be the best of the BOB and the groups would be the best of the groups BOB winners and so on. The only problem here is it could lead to a dog that had been beaten by several other dogs taking the title winner of the BOBs (the old BIS) and that would not be very prestigious.

The only way would be to have the breed show first do Best in Show just after lunch and then start on the Stakes and Varieties classes then you have the problem of people leaving (as they do now after breed judging) also do you allow the winners of the first part of the show to compete in the second.