Hi guys

My 2 and a half year old bitch girl has been bred twice.
Both times she failed to conceive.

I just want to know if there can be a reason for this?
She is bred based on vaginal cytology smears, around days 11-14.

She does develop appetite changes but mostly a decrease, then never increases.
Also, she does have some mucus discharge, stringy and clear.

At the last days, she does produce milky fluid through her nipples. But then she's empty.

I just wish to ask why this is so, to either not conceive or to absorb?
She loves to jump about but can this be the reason?

Thanks

Was it the same stud or two different ones, and did you get a tie or not?

I am taking it as read that she has been hip scored, and passed any other breed relevant health/temperament screening.

Well wrong timing is the most usual cause for missing. 

Have you used the same dog each time? 

How many times was she mated over how many days?

As you started trying so young (for her to be missing twice at only 2 1/2) you have plenty of time, and I would advise getting progesterone blood tests next time, to pinpoint more accurately the right time, and determine if she is actually ovulating.

If there are no hormonal reasons for not maintaining a pregnancy it is either timing or some physical problem with her reproductive system or the studs.

I had a bitch have 4 phantoms with 4 different studs, one unproven but he was my own and had his semen checked out and it was fine.

After 2 phantoms I found out she ovulates very early on day 8, 3rd try she went to stay with her breeder/stud owner from beginning of season, again had phantom, on her next season had her hormones checked out and the following season with my own male she failed again.

Last summer I decided to give her one more go as she would be 5yrs old in Dec., day 39 at least 3 pups seen alive and fitted the date of her middle mating, day 61 she had a 4 hr labour which resulted in one fresh stillborn[ I had felt movements over night as she was in bed with me] and 2 partially decomposed pups, she just wasn't meant to have pups, she is now spayed and living with a couple in Cheshire.

I know how disappointing it can be and waiting 6/8months for the next season seems like an eternity but that is what we do in the hopes of getting it right.

Can be bad luck. I had a bitch once that I mated 3 times but she never took. Just wasn't to be.
My best timing now seems to be 15 days as I have had good size litters last 2 times on this day. 11-12 days would be too early for us but all bitches are different of course.
As has been said - at 2.5 years I  would just be starting to think about it. A at that age, you have a few years ahead too try.

Rhodach there ARE hormonal reasons links to reabsorbing of litters. IF progesterone levels decrease due to leuteal failure the litter will be lost. This isn't however a common cause of infertility in bitches but without reproduction specialist advice it is not possible to determine reasons for bitches missing

Suggested previously the most typical cause is incorrect timing of mating so based on this I would recommend progesterone testing from approx day 5 to pin point day of ovulation and mate 2  and 4 days later. IF progesterone levels post mating are considered a potential problem you could progesterone test weekly from day 5-7 from last mating  to establish if levels are declining prematurely.  You can supplement with hormones to maintain pregnancy If leuteal failure is identified BUT this can only be done in conjunction with a repro specialist and I believe supplementation can result in feminization of male pups & crytochidism so decision to take this route needs careful consideration

http://www.ivis.org/advances/concannon/root/ivis.pdf

K

Why on earth would anyone consider going to these lengths to keep a subfertile bitch in their lines?

Personally I wouldn't do it, I may test to establish if leuteal failure was the cause of the problem so that knowledge can be used to inform breeding from related lines but personally I wouldn't want to supplement with progesterones. I take the view that even if you get pups you may well have fertility problems in the next generation ..

quite right, only those that can breed (given the opportunity to mate at the right time) should breed. 

The fact that we can use AI, pinpoint ovulation should not be to allow sub fertile animals to breed but to enable us as owners to facilitate breeding between animals who may be separated by time and distance to enable breeding.

>Why on earth would anyone consider going to these lengths to keep a subfertile bitch in their lines?

Agree. If a bitch repeatedly misses to different dogs then she's a pet only, not a brood bitch, no matter what her lines are.

I wouldn't go as far as supplementing with hormones, all the tests she had on seasons she wasn't mated[she never had phantoms after those seasons] ran the usual course hence my final attempt, I did prove she could get pregnant but things failed at the last minute, the stillborn pup was the spitting image of her sire a cream brindle and at 9ozs the biggest pup I have had so far.

She was the last bitch in her line, her sister was killed at 10 months old by a staffy, her half sister from same dam wasn't a good mother and killed all but one pup[owners were idiots and left her alone post c/section] the other pups her dam had were males and went to pet homes.

I would probably give up sooner if I had the same problem in the future, who knows.

> Was it the same stud or two different ones, and did you get a tie or not?

It's two different studs. One had a perfect record of getting bitches pregnant (I guess I destroyed that record.)
And yes, each attempt was mated thrice, all tied. I was there.

> I am taking it as read that she has been hip scored, and passed any other breed relevant health/temperament screening.
>
> Well wrong timing is the most usual cause for missing. 
>
> Have you used the same dog each time? 
>
> How many times was she mated over how many days?
>
> As you started trying so young (for her to be missing twice at only 2 1/2) you have plenty of time, and I would advise getting progesterone blood tests next time, to pinpoint more accurately the right time, and determine if she is actually ovulating.

Yup she's healthy, all passed.

In terms of timing, my vet and I did vaginal smears over a period of time to determine cornification and therefore, estimate LH surge.

However, I do agree that there is always a possibility of mis-timed mating, particularly if she's very far from the textbook bitch.

I'm purchasing test strips to determine hormonal changes resulting to the LH Surge. I'll be using these daily on her next heat to ensure effectivity.

My question is since she is very very jumpy, can this have caused absorption? I know dogs may exercise normally during the first 4-5 weeks and slow down beyond this.

> If there are no hormonal reasons for not maintaining a pregnancy it is either timing or some physical problem with her reproductive system or the studs.
>
> I had a bitch have 4 phantoms with 4 different studs, one unproven but he was my own and had his semen checked out and it was fine.
>
> After 2 phantoms I found out she ovulates very early on day 8, 3rd try she went to stay with her breeder/stud owner from beginning of season, again had phantom, on her next season had her hormones checked out and the following season with my own male she failed again.
>
> Last summer I decided to give her one more go as she would be 5yrs old in Dec., day 39 at least 3 pups seen alive and fitted the date of her middle mating, day 61 she had a 4 hr labour which resulted in one fresh stillborn[ I had felt movements over night as she was in bed with me] and 2 partially decomposed pups, she just wasn't meant to have pups, she is now spayed and living with a couple in Cheshire.
>
> I know how disappointing it can be and waiting 6/8months for the next season seems like an eternity but that is what we do in the hopes of getting it right.

Thanks for the story. Well with mine, if I've done this daily hormonal testing the next time she goes in heat and still fails, then yup maybe shes not meant to be a mom.

She'll just be my baby girl forever and chase squirrels and peanut butter treats haha

From your replies I would say it was probably a case of mistiming. A dog that jumps around would not effect the dogs ability to conceive nor carry a whelp to term but if you mean she is jumpy, nervous then perhaps she should not be bred from anyway.

Next time get a blood test but bear in mind that it is possible she is unable to conceive for a physical or hormonal reason, have you had a vet check for physical deformity perhaps a very thick or high hymen.

> From your replies I would say it was probably a case of mistiming. A dog that jumps around would not effect the dogs ability to conceive nor carry a whelp to term but if you mean she is jumpy, nervous then perhaps she should not be bred from anyway.
>
> Next time get a blood test but bear in mind that it is possible she is unable to conceive for a physical or hormonal reason, have you had a vet check for physical deformity perhaps a very thick or high hymen.

Thanks for the comment.
Jumpy I meant always jumping especially when she sees people she likes (everyone in the house). She'd jump about and go round and round.

Is the stringy clear discharge at about 8-9 weeks of her "pregnancy" suggest she once carried pups and just reabsorbed? Because she does not show false pregnancy symptoms if she wasn't bred during her heat. On her heats that she was bred, she would show these symptoms despite being empty.

Now that I am not sure about but would doubt it however if she is aborting there may be a very good reason why so perhaps try once more having done a blood test and if she fails again then I think I would accept that nature thinks it better she does not reproduce. Persisting to try could find you with a deformed litter or a dead bitch so let the bitch decide having been mated at the correct time if she stays in whelp or not.

Mis-timing I would suspect. I mated a bitch twice, two different studs and she missed.

Third attempt I got my friends expert GSD to tell me the day, he is invariably right...and it was day 7..mated.... litter of 4... 1 UK champion.
Fourth attempt....day 6...litter of 4..1 UK champion....who herself has had one litter and produced a US champion.

If the issue is human error than dont despair..... but if this bitch goes onto have further fertility problems after you sort out timings....then Id say shes not a brood bitch and I wouldnt flog a dead horse.

Hi guys

I'm to try one last time and if this one does not end with a litter, then I'm not attempting to breed her again.She'll do well to be my snuggle buddy forever LOL.

I'm ordering these Pre-Mate strips that you insert daily in her vulva to detect LH surge.You can check it out here:
http://pettastic.multiply.com/photos/album/16/PRE-MATE-TEST-STRIPS

I'm from the Philippines so I'm getting this shipped to my house.

I'll give you guys updates. I'm expecting her heat next month because her heats come about every 4.5 months (her cycles come quick).

Might be worth putting her on a course of antibiotics at the start of her season, just in case there is an imbalance of bacteria in her reproductive tract.  A friend had a bitch who had a litter to one of my dogs, then missed twice when mated again.  I told her she had to put her on antibiotics because it was a waste of time just going on mating her without doing something.  She did and the bitch had 9 pups.

Might be worth putting her on a course of antibiotics at the start of her season

Don't think that ABs should be used like this they are a valuable way to fight infection but when used to excess they lose their efficacy. By all means have a swab taken and a white cell check but do not use ABs unless there is an infection present.

Have to say I have used these type of strips and found them a waste of time!!  I know some people have liked them but I'd say more breeders than not found them a waste of money!!

> Have to say I have used these type of strips and found them a waste of time!!  I know some people have liked them but I'd say more breeders than not found them a waste of money!!

Hi.
In what way? Were they unreliable in determining the proper timing?

Thanks

Also do you guys know any products that increase fertility in a brood bitch?
I want to start her on something as early as now so that we can get maximum odds when she gets into her season.

I heard evening primrose oil works, or wheat germ.
But then both commonly are rich sources of Vitamin E.

Does that mean it's the Vitamin E that is the agent in encouraging fertility? Maybe vitamin E pills would work? Or an extra egg yolk a day?

Thanks

Is she fit and healthy?
Then you need do nothing more.
If it needed to take any kind of extra effort to assist her in conceiving you have really picked the wrong bitch for a brood.

Do not use supplements that way can lead to all sorts of problems, try again but accept if she does not conceive she is not meant to and leave it at that, of course, have the vet check out there is no mechanical problem and you could also have a blood check done to check that her organs are functioning as they should but apart from that if she does not conceive I would accept that she is just not brood material.

Forget any tests / test strip etc to detect ovulation other than a serum progesterone they are simply NOT accurate enough especially in a bitch with a history of missing twice. Test from day 5 .. She may prove very early ovulator ( had one ready on day 5 ) or late. Unfortunately they don't  read the text books and some cannot be assessed by behavioural presentation only..... Some bitches will stand before or after optimum time.

Forget any tests / test strip etc to detect ovulation other than a serum progesterone they are simply NOT accurate enough especially in a bitch with a history of missing twice. Test from day 5

Sorry klb that does not make too much sense, you say forget any tests and then you say test from day 5 - would you like to explain what you meant.

>Other than serum progesterone

So presume they mean that :)

"Forget any tests / test strip etc to detect ovulation other than a serum progesterone"

Not sure, read that as forget any tests, test strip etc to detect ovulation other than serum progesterone.

That was in reply to me and I had written "have the vet check out there is no mechanical problem and you could also have a blood check done to check that her organs are functioning as they should"

So was not sure if the poster was suggesting that a vet check and blood test was not worth doing as I had not suggested any test to highlight ovulation.

> as I had not suggested any test to highlight ovulation.

I know but I think that is klb's interest so that is what they have responded with :) 
I agree with you, I would not do any of this testing to pin point days. If a bitch does not conceive readily within the normally expected span of days I think you are digging yourself into more trouble in the future if you go to these lengths to work around that.

Forget the ovulation pads, they're a waste of time and money. Go for a progesterone quantitative test from Idexx instead, this will give you an accurate indication of when she's actually ovulating (assuming she is).

I have used the ovulation pads as have many friends here and abroad,we have found them to be accurate, it was them that picked up that one of my bitches was ovulating on day 8 instead of day 11 onwards that I expected.

I have also with my last litter had blood tests done as well as testing using the ovulation pads and the results tallied, so I will continue to use them.

Sorry for any confusion Nova the comments on tests was not directed at your post about vet checks.

Stooge I have NO vested interst in progesterone testing .. Don't work for a vet, laboratory or any other allied canine science centre BUT I do use these test as routine, as do many other breeders. Dogs as humans demonstrate many variables and NORMS are simple averages. Many will not conform to these norms but are still perfectly normal. Before traveling the length of the country, or further, it seems sensible to me to know I am going on right day. JMHO

Second get bloods done and send off to Idexx.

> Stooge I have NO vested interst in progesterone testing ..

I said interest not vested interest :)

>Dogs as humans demonstrate many variables and NORMS are simple averages. Many will not conform to these norms but are still perfectly normal.

They may be normal but I do think we should continue to breed from animals that fall easily within the average ranges otherwise we may find we are moving them further and further to the margins.
I appreciate what you are saying about travelling but the difficulties this may present seem to me another reason why we should be selecting for bitches that are as naturally predictable as possible.

> I have used the ovulation pads as have many friends here and abroad,we have found them to be accurate, it was them that picked up that one of my bitches was ovulating on day 8 instead of day 11 onwards that I expected.
>
> I have also with my last litter had blood tests done as well as testing using the ovulation pads and the results tallied, so I will continue to use them.

Hi.
Are the pads similar to the link I posted?

And did you breed on the day of ovulation (1-2 days after the color change), giving a 2 day head start for the sperm? Hoping you can share.

And guys,

My girl cycles every 4 months, which is a bit on the short side. But I heard that's not so unusual for a GSD.
You think that contributes to her inability to conceive?
Or does that simply mean that even her ovulation is earlier than average since she cycles earlier than the average 6 months?

Season that occur every 4 mths or less CAN be an indicator of conditions which can lead to reproduction problems. Polycystic Overies springs to mind ... In your shoes I would be organising to see a repro specialist vet to discuss your concerns before her next heat. Again JMHO 

VERY common for GSDs to cycle every 4-5 months.

> VERY common for GSDs to cycle every 4-5 months.

Yup I heard.
My girl's last heat was May and now, she's blowing her coat--an indication for her that in a month she'll be in season.
At least she's consistent haha

> Season that occur every 4 mths or less CAN be an indicator of conditions which can lead to reproduction problems. Polycystic Overies springs to mind ... In your shoes I would be organising to see a repro specialist vet to discuss your concerns before her next heat. Again JMHO 

I have read this but a lot of people in other forums also say that GSDs commonly get these rather short intervals between seasons.

These are the ones I use

http://www.ovulationpads.info/

Don't order too many at once unless you are sharing the order as they only last 6 months

I warn the stud owner that the bitch has come into season, test daily and at the first sign of colour change I take her to the stud 48 hrs later, if  can stay near by I do another mating 48hrs after that.

The corners are sharp for a small bitch so I snip a tiny bit of each corner with my nail clippers.

When I am using my own males as there is no long distance travel involved I tend to go by how the dogs are reacting to each other.

> I warn the stud owner that the bitch has come into season, test daily and at the first sign of colour change I take her to the stud 48 hrs later, if  can stay near by I do another mating 48hrs after that.

I understand that the spike is seen through a series of color changes: 1 somewhat burgundy brown on the sides, then the peak spike would be burgundy all over. Then it will recede again.

Do you mate them 48 hours post the peak or right after the first burgundy color you see? And with your method, I understand you mate on ovulation day. Then second mating, 48hours later, is "egg ripening" day.

Thanks.

It depends on how much vaginal secretions there are as to how much of the pad changes colour, I base my timing on any colour change of the pad, this indicates ovulation taking place, eggs are not ripe for another 48hrs giving you time to organise any travel arrangements with the stud owner etc., many breeders only do one mating when having to travel some distance to the stud and being unable to stay locally, so far I have managed to stay and do 2 matings, puppies have arrived 2 days early to first mating and 63 days post second mating.

I read somewhere that if a dog cycles quickly like per 4 months or less, once of these seasons in a year is not fertile?
Is there truth in this?

Thanks.

Is there truth in this?


No, would not think so, the coming into season is all part of a hormonal cycle and if the bitch was not fertile then the hormones would not bring the bitch into season. There are reasons why eggs are not shed or do not implant but that has nothing really to do with the fact the bitch is showing colour, that is just the outward sign of the hormonal cycle.

I think that a short  cycle can sometimes inicate a split season, so the first half may not be fertile, but the second part may be.

Been reading a book on Canine and Feline reproduction by Prof.Gary England and Angelika von Heimendahl - sort of thing that you pick out the bits you want, but full of information.

Jo

Yes Jo that may cause people to believe that a season may not be fertile or indeed that a bitch is coming in 3 or 4 times a year when in fact they are having a couple of split seasons although I have never known a split season with a 4 month jap but that does not mean they do not happen

I can confirm though that GSDs often have 3 seasons in every 12 to 14 months though.

> I can confirm though that GSDs often have 3 seasons in every 12 to 14 months though.

Thanks for this.
Yup it's been regularly per 4 months.