My puppies are now 4.5 weeks old, they are now on 4 meals a day( puppy mousse). They get quite distressed when the bitch sleeps near them, she wants to be close to them but won't stay with them? Is this normal? What do you all advise me doing, they still want and need her milk etc but she's not interested.

We have our room so that the mother has room to move away from the pups but still be near them. This is quite normal behaviour.  She should still be feeding and cleaning them, and should also be regurgitating food for them.

The pups should always be pleased to see her and should interact when she is in with them.

I don't really understand what you mean by distressed?

Perfectly normal and frustrating stage.  The pups are frustrated that the Milk bar now has reduced opening hours,, it's called weaning.

This is often when you hear novice (and sometimes not so novice) breeders say the bitch has had enough of her pups, ans separate them.

This is not true, the bitch is just cutting down her milk supply to facilitate weaning and after a week will cease to seem to be so mean, and the pups will learn that demand feeding is not on the cards.

with my own girls from now I find they will feed the pups morning night and some time during the day, gradually reducing frequent until by 6 or 7 weeks it's only really a comfort suck.  some will continue with this right until the pups go. 

My current litter the bitch was doing this until 9 weeks, but has now finally stopped, and the pup we are keeping and her sister who went yesterday were no longer even asking/attempting to sneak a snack.

The reason I am up, is that the pup has been shouting since 5.30am, and despite being toileted is not happy in her pen, despite Mum and Great grandma in the same room, hope her sisters owner is getting a better night.

Peni is on my lap to calm herself and I wil try to put her back down, this is just like when the kids were small.

> and should also be regurgitating food for them.
>
>

This is why we start weaning as soon as the pups show interest in Mums food, to avoid hr regurgitating. 

Mine have rarely tried to do it (despite being a primitive breed often known for it) as pups are so obviously full from their meals, which Mum gets to finish off.

What I forgot to say is that the bitch has been probably the worst mum ever, the pups are now are 4 small meals a day and they still feed off her when she lets them, she really can't be bothered feeding them only cleaning up after them and also cleaning them.

> What I forgot to say is that the bitch has been probably the worst mum ever,

How do you mean, I assume she has been rearing them (assume they gained weight etc?), and if she still wishes to be with them, she may not be doting but efficient?

If they are on 4 small meals and gainign well then she must still be feedign them well.

Not wanting to clean the pups is usually a sign of bad mothering not the other way around.

It's been complicated! It's her first and last litter.... She's stood on them drop kicked them across the box amongst other things, having said all this she improved drastically, and she does love them. She just dosen't really want to feed them much.

> She just dosen't really want to feed them much.

Many first time mothers can be slow with the maternal  instincts kicking in, but if she has fed them enough fior normal weight gain and now they are on solids they are still gaining with her top ups, then she has done fine with the feeding, and this stage is what I would certainly expect from any of my Mum's.

I usually keep mum seperate for a short while after her meal to prevent her regurgitating when the puppies were weaning as they were gaining well and still feeding from her.

By 4 weeks old my bitch wasn't too happy to be pounced on by 3 or 4 pups wanting a drink for comfort as they were eating and drinking normally and showed no signs of being hungry till Mum appeared on the scene, she would stand up and walk off and growl at anyone still hanging on at which point they let go.

Having other adults to interact with the pups meant they were getting a variety of teaching, my male let them get away with murder, hanging off his ears and tail, scrambling over the top of him, the other bitch and the dam stood for no nonsense and brought any rough treatment to an abrupt end, needless to say Uncle Rhuari was the preferred play mate for them.

Reading threads on here over the years no 2 bitches are the same and even may react differently with each litter.

Barbara I feel for you having to cope with the one pup who till now has had a sibling to sleep with and now is on her own, how soon do you put her with the adults at night, thus far I have kept 2 or sold all in the litter of males so not had this problem.

I normally keep a pup. I have the litter in the same room as the big dogs by 6 weeks so when the litter mates go the one left behind is still in the same place with Mum and Granny just outside the puppy pen. I usually dispence with the puppy pen by 14 weeks or so. It has worked a treat up till now and I usually get to sleep till 7am. :-) I make sure there is plenty of paper down in the pen and last wee is at 11.30 ish then I just clean up any mess from overnight. Thats why I like a pen not a cage. I have not yet had a pup who was not clean and dry by 14 weeks overnight (and through the day).
Your bitch sounds normal and she is doing as nature intended and weaning the pups off her milk. I will not let the Mother regurgitate if I can help it, doing as has been said and feeding her away from the pups and keeping her away for an hour or so. I want my girls to get back into condition after feeding pups and giving up half her meals will not help. It is not as if the pups NEED this food as thier meals arrive in plentyfull amounts and at regular intervals not like in the wild.
It is not nesessary at all.
Aileen

Mine have been in the same room with the adults from 3 weeks of age, but pups in a puppy pen.

By the time they can climb out of the pen they will be loose with the rest of the gang, in kitchen fi we go out, through may be crated at night.

Some of them go in the kennel (theri bedroom) at night and pup will join them when she goes through the night without needing toileting.  The kennel is a double, with two baskets in each under a full width bench that is two feet wide.  At present a crate is on one of the benches where Safi (17 months) sleeps as she decided to chew the kennel framing.

At present she is sleeping in the kitchen with Mum and great grandma, though Mum is asking to go out to her bed in the kennel, probably because she likes a lie in and pup is waking us up!

Ditto merlot about prefering to clean up than get up at night, so use a puppy pen (6 x 3 feet) so pup can toilet if needs to.

>and should also be regurgitating food for them.<br />

In all my years of breeding, I have never had a bitch regurgitate.

My last bitch would; but then she'd guard the 'sausage' of food from the pups and I had to clear it away! She was a bit  confused about what she was supposed to do!

>but then she'd guard the 'sausage' of food from the pups

My most maternal bitch of all time (now spayed and trying to steal others pups), was so meticulous with her pups, that she would wait to retrieve a "sausage" as it was emerging from a pup.  Disgusting!  I had to watch her like a hawk with pups I kept, as she would have still been doing this when they were 8 months old!

My current girl woudl clear any puppy mess doen indoors even now, which is why I have to keep her out of the puppy pen (pup now 10 weeks old). 

Once they were going outside (from a month old) she would leave it to me, but inside the house and it had to be cleaned up, and she would whine at my shoulder as I cleared up in the morning.

In all my years of breeding, I have never had a bitch regurgitate.

Once most of my litter is homed and I have the odd one or two kept back from 8 weeks onwards I allow my mum to come over with her dogs for part of the pups socialising and every time her alpha will regurgitate for the pups, it is so strange as she has not seen them or been around whilst they are reared but she will eat a chicken wing and go over to where the pups are and give them her offering.

And as for her little crossbreed she is the ultimate nanny she is straight over to any pups to play with and watch over she never leaves their side, my girl is very good about it all as my mum's pack come along and give her an afternoon off as they all watch over the pups I find it quite amazing when they haven't been around or even met the pups prior, but it goes to show even though my mum's dogs do not live with us they generally visit every day so my girl and her pups are just treated like part of the pack anyway. :-)