i would like some feed back please i know this is wrong but not sure what i should do

i know some one has changed the date of birth by a few days of one of there dogs so that its can be shown at a certain show they

the entry was made online

what to do

Have they registered a pup with the wrong DOB? If that's the case and they're the breeder then it would be very hard to prove a difference of a few days either way. If however they've entered a show with a different DOB than the one registered with this can be easily corrected, you could point it out to the show secretary. If they've entered junior for example and are ineligible they would have to move to the open class.

> not sure what i should do

I probably wouldn't bother doing anything, yes it is wrong, but if it doesn't directly affect me I'd leave them too it and think them slightly sad for having to stoop to such levels of deceit. If you're showing a dog in the same breed and show then I guess like I've said above you can complain to the secretary.

the dog is to young to be entered at the show they changed it from the reg cert or KC detail so they could enter the show

well that's just plain stupid...lol

No point, best case scenario for them is they get to compete and any rewards are then withdrawn. Worst case scenario they lose their entry fees and potentially get in trouble too if it could be proven they lied deliberately.

yes they have lied deliberately how would they end up withdrawn

Personally I would just forget about it.  I didn't like tell tale twits at school!   :-)

It's no skin off your nose, so don't get involved. 

If they win anything it will be withheld by the KC and they may well be fined because not only have they falsified the entry they will have taken an under-age dog to a show. Very silly but not really doing anyone else any harm it is just against the rules.

Have they done it just so they can bring the pup along to the show and not show it?

Anyways if they do compete and win I doubt the KC will do anything as they only look at stud book awards, so for anything to do be done about it someone has to report them.

The thing is if they have awards withdrawn it won't be until after the event, and the person who should have got the award (Best Puppy perhaps?) is denied the chance to compete in the group. Better to report them beforehand than afterwards. Whistleblowing can be the only way to stop selfish cheats ruining things for others.

they only look at stud book awards,

Don't think this can be so, you only have to look in the Gazette and you will see no end of places removed because the entry was incorrect, be it age or qualification.

done to compete they would be able to enter crufts should they be paced at this show its a race to qualify this time of year

Providing it is a show at which the breed can qualify.

What they gain at the front ..they lose at the end of puppy...does it really matter.
I agree with Jean...Telling tales is all you'll achieve.

> they only look at stud book awards,
>
> Don't think this can be so, you only have to look in the Gazette and you will see no end of places removed because the entry was incorrect, be it age or qualification.

Alot of those are people actually telling the KC themselves that they had made an error on their entry form etc
I think if someone is actually cheating by changing DOB or going in classes they shouldn't be in and are found out then I think thats when the KC take it a step up and not only remove the awards but penalise the owner

That someone thinks far enough ahead to tally up first show date with the DOB of the litter they just had astounds me, they deserve to be found out.

This is a completely different to the discussion a few weeks back about a litter born either side of midnight and which date of birth should the pups be registered under.

The stud owner will know the dates that the matings took place and whether the pups DOB is possible or not.

Certainly would be sticking clear of this breeder as who knows what other things have been falsified.

Things like this always get found out eventually if the dog does well people know from the breeder onwards........ and paperwork will be checked.

If you know this person or are friends with someone who knows her I would go straight to that person and tell them that they are playing with fire in telling lies, changing the DOB by a few days might not seem like much and at the end of the day it isn't.

The problems happen if the dog does well those the dog is up against will be mighty peeved if they lost out to a dog which should not have even been there and believe me any little lies will be found out competition brings that out in people.

Let this person know it is not worth the risk, if for whatever reasons you can't do that, would I call it in myself, no I wouldn't, but I may and probably would tell others, who tell others, who tell others................ ;-)

That is silly as if there is a check (KC do random checks) then the dog will be disqualified anyway.

> done to compete they would be able to enter crufts should they be paced at this show its a race to qualify this time of year

on entering Crufts the KC's own show you have to say where the dog qualified and it will be obvious the dog was under age, as it's DOB is on it's KC records.

they must be fools to tell people they have done it in the first place ... I mean you know so who else knows!! the truth will out.. :)

Sorry but I hate liers and cheats like this, to potentially get a place unfairly and then it possibly be withdrawn at a later date is not on especially if another dog looses a place because of this one. Sorry but I'd be inclined to report to show secretary on the day. I honestly can't believe that there are people on here saying don't get involved, don't say anything, don't tell tales.... Sorry but I don't like this kind of rule breaking and if it were my pup that lost out on a place due to this scenario and it was all seen too late where would that leave me??? Still without said place!!
Nope not on and we need more people standing up to others who try to cheat their way though!!

Ditto Suejaw. Turning a blind eye is supporting cheating.

If they have registered the dog at the KC say with DOB of 10/01/2012
Then because they can't enter the dog in a show because it's too young but if they
then enter it in a show and put that the dog was born 07/01/2012...

It will get disqualified from it's wins/placings once the awards are verified by the KC.

It's happened in our breed where a puppy won either Best puppy female or Best Puppy in Show
at a breed Ch show, they had entered puppy with wrong birth date...as I think by the time of the show
it was just into junior class..so it was over age.
Read about the DQ a few months later in the Kennel Gazette not sure if it was brought to the KC's attention
or if they found it themselves.

The people concerned don't do themselves any favoours, infact I kind of think they are sad if they are that desperate
to win a rosette/placing...just goes to show how low some go

>It will get disqualified from it's wins/placings once the awards are verified by the KC.

But that doesn't help the rightful winner at all. They've still gone home cheated of their just award and opportunity to go further on the day.

A particular dog could end up missing that place which qualifies them for Crufts, allowing them to do this won't help that dog and owner... I still can't believe the lengths people go to in order to win!! Glad someone agrees with me on this eh JG :-)

>Glad someone agrees with me on this eh JG :-)

Too right. I feel very strongly about the importance of honesty. :-) Without honesty every win is worthless.

This is a 'little white lie' as the topic title suggests. It's fraud.

A lie is a lie, if you have to win by cheating then it's a bad do. I also can't believe people implying that to take action would be "snitching" it's what appropriate action to take? Is there any way you could subtly let them know that others are aware of their deceipt, maybe they would think twice about actually doing it? This type of thing plays in to the hands of the dog show bashers, they would use it to show that to some winning is everything! I also feel sorry for any other competitior who IS playing by the rules and may loose out qualifying due to this dog being wrongly entered.

In my book this is blatant dishonesty. 'Little white lie' does not apply at all as this is downright cheating. Makes me want to give up, why bother when others don't respect the boundaries of rules? 

Cheating in my book too. Just imagine if it was the last show your dog could get a JW point from and this happened....blow the whistle.
Aileen

> i know this is wrong but not sure what i should do

Is this a breeder (who has registered the dob for the entire litter a few days adrift) or an owner (who has notified the KC the reg cert was incorrect)?

Either way I'm sure you can contact the KC with your concerns.  If the new owner has made the changes then the original breeders records will show the correct dob and the KC can easy check it, it will also be noticeable when the pup gets to it's first show as many show breeders/handlers already know the dates of each others litters and won't fail to notice an error.  However, if it's the breeder who has tweaked the birth date for the entire litter then it might be more difficult for the KC to prove...

It seems to me though that if you are concerned enough to check your facts on here then you know it's not ethical and ought to be reported, whatever the difficulties with proof.

Or have they put a different DoB on the entry form to the one on the registration certificate?

I feel very strongly about the importance of honesty

I too hate dishonesty but feel in this case they will only hurt themselves, if they win they will be disqualified and the dog placed second, third and reserve will be moved up so they will not lose anything.

They will be guilty of breaking two rules and unless they are chucked out they will be found out. However a word to the show sec would be the best way to go but if you are second to this pup then a complaint to the KC would be in order.

PS if you do make a complaint to the sec then make sure it is entered in the book and you sign it as that will go to the KC.

>if they win they will be disqualified and the dog placed second, third and reserve will be moved up so they will not lose anything.

But they might; if the pup placed second becomes Best Puppy how can it go forward to the puppy group? You can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't be disqualified on the day.

That is also why it is the most silly thing to do, it's not just if it will come out but when sure as eggs something like that will not stay a secret and it is not only dealing with whatever the KC decide to do about it, whether fined etc it will become public, the show world is a very fickle world does this person not think that they will not come upon other competitors who will not be very welcoming to someone who cheats.

She is digging her own grave here for her own vanity.

I really would make that effort to talk to her about it before it goes too far, it does beg the question though of if our OP can't talk to her, perhaps she is not close to this person so who has already betrayed that confidence, it has already started........

Just a footnote of caution for our OP though, is it truly fact and not just gossip as if the person has done it she is mighty stupid to be telling people about it?

if the pup placed second becomes Best Puppy how can it go forward to the puppy group?

That is true but very few Champ shows have a puppy group - we don't know if this is a champ show or an open but if there is a puppy group then you must complain before the class although it unlikely they will stop the pup competing as only the KC can do that having checked the complaint. So if not doing the group worries you then you need to complain now although I doubt anything will be done till after the event.

If I have understood this correctly, the breeder has had a litter born, say on the 18th June and then realised that the puppies would miss the entry for LKA by 3 days, so.....they register the litter as being born on the 15th June, making them 3 days older than they actually are.

If this is the case, no-one can actually prove any different, the Kennel Club has to take these things on trust and there will always be people who will tweek the rules to suit there own ends, one of my favourite sayings is...what goes around comes around (or something like that)

> If I have understood this correctly, the breeder has had a litter born, say on the 18th June and then realised that the puppies would miss the entry for LKA by 3 days, so.....they register the litter as being born on the 15th June, making them 3 days older than they actually are.
>

If that is the case I wouldn't be too bothered.  Nobody else is going to be affected and they could have been born 3 days late anyway :)  Like some else said, they could lose out at the other end of the puppy classes.

I would report it, if only to deter them and others from doing it again. It's pure cheating.

How could anything be proven?

Tell the truth and shame the devil!

It is how we should all live our lives, cheating, defrauding it is simply not fair!

In my family there is more trouble for my children for dishonesty than any other thing. Quite simply wont tolerate it.

Karen

If I have understood this correctly, the breeder has had a litter born, say on the 18th June and then realised that the puppies would miss the entry for LKA by 3 days, so.....they register the litter as being born on the 15th June, making them 3 days older than they actually are

From what I have understood that is not correct, as quite rightly it wouldn't really matter no-one would know.

From my understanding the litter has been registered correctly, but this pup has been registered online for entry into a show using the wrong date to get it through. TBH it may or may not be the breeder but someone just owning a potential show quality pup that has not been said as of yet.

I would like to think it is not the breeder as they have too much to lose, but an over-exuberant owner who does not quite grasp the concept of fair play and just how much trouble she will be in from the KC and others in her breed. :-)

Hopefully someone will help to show the error of her ways. :-)

Well maybe the OP will make it clearer, if your theory is correct then the new owners must be very stupid as that would be picked up very quickly!

I don't agree that the breeder would have to much to lose...it's their litter, who can prove if they are 6 weeks old or 5 weeks and 4 days old?

it's their litter, who can prove if they are 6 weeks old or 5 weeks and 4 days old?

The OP's very first post declares that someone has changed one of their dogs DOB in an online registration for entry.

There is no mention of a breeder changing a whole litters dates just one dog, so therefore I would deduce that the litter the dog came from is correctly registered at the KC by the breeder.

The KC paperwork shows the DOB therefore for a breeder to then try and cheat certainly would not go down well with others in the breed people have long memories especially if it costs others placements and it could cause a lot of future problems for them, with regards to trust issues, future breeding programmes or just plain not wanting to have anything to do with someone like that, which is why I personally don't think it can be the actual breeder...........  at least I hope not!

I have always presumed that when you enter your dog in a show whether on paper or online that someone checked that the dogs registered name exists in that breed and the DOB tallies too.

If this is a puppy buyer entering with the wrong DOB deliberately then it will be very easy to check the details given by the breeder to the KC, won't they get caught out at the time that the Club member checks all the entries for that show?

This person must have blabbed to someone for this to be raised here, I wonder how many more know?

Thing is if this is looked at after the event a puppy end up missing out altogether from say Crufts. Also I've not heard of any dogs being moved up places automatically because another dog lost its award/place.. 4th place for all we know may not be a dog worthy of a place and some places give you SB numbers and also as Merlot had mentionned JW points....
This from reading through is for a ch show!

If I had all the facts and being facts then I'd be contacting KC before and then advising show secretary on day before class starts to alert them, pay my money and hope that something is done before said class is judged!

Would doubt that the club or society would check it would take too long and entries would have to be earlier, printers may notice if they are keying in what is obviously a litter and one has a different DOB otherwise it would not come to light unless the dog wins or someone reports it.

>I have always presumed that when you enter your dog in a show whether on paper or online that someone checked that the dogs registered name exists in that breed and the DOB tallies too.

No - one of my dogs had the wrong date of birth printed in the catalogue, and a bitch was put in under her mother's name!

I thought entry dates were so early to allow all these checks to be made.

So mistakes are only picked up by the dogs owner/show breeder, if they are the the ones deliberately making the mistake then they are not going to report it.

There are so many ways they can be found out, for instance a litter mate is present in the same show but they have different DOB's/

Does the owner who has altered the DOB for the first show then revert back to the correct one for future shows?

The first show I entered my home bred boy in he was 6 days too old for minor puppy, I would never have even thought of fiddling the dates to make him one of the oldest in minor pup rather than the youngest in puppy class.

Spot checks are done (all shows have to submit marked catalogues/results to the KC), but by and large these things are most often picked up when someone reports it.

I thought entry dates were so early to allow all these checks to be made.

Even with championship shows this would be one hell of a job and it would be impossible for an open show, think that every dog would have to be looked up (not sure where) the dam and sire checked, the owner and the DOB then if that dog is qualified to enter that class, the latter is usually picked up by the printer as is if the dog is too old for an age class but beyond that checking would be very difficult and expensive.

All details, complaints and incidents are sent to the KC who do spot check but for the show society or the printer to do so would IMO be almost out of the question before a show. Championship shows will have in the region or 7000 to 10000 dogs entered and an open show anything up to 1000 when you think that you would have to check 3 dogs for each entry you will understand what a huge job this would be.

Please OP come back and clarify what a few of us are wondering! :-)

I can't believe someone would risk falsifying the DOB of a single dog on an entry form! Surely not worth the risk of someone noticing?! There was a really bitter atmosphere at a show I won at last year when the 'tip for the CC' was in limit when it was not eligible (had won out of limit prior to entries closing) and there was a LOT of muttering around the ring but nothing done as whether it was intentional or a mistake, the dog didn't win anyway!

If on the other hand it is a whole litter that has been changed prior to registration, well like others have said, nothing can be really proved either way.

Ooh the joy of showing! :-)