There is so much wrong about all this that I'm not really sure where to start.

Of course, if you are talking about a puppy which shows no signs of growling or guarding behaviour, picking it up and putting it on the floor is no problem.  It won't teach the puppy not to get up there, it won't make it less likely that the puppy will get up there in future - it won't achieve anything other than the removal of your puppy from the furniture that one time.  But if that's what you want to achieve, sure, it's no problem.

When you add guarding behaviour and growling into the picture, you are dealing with a very different situation and circumstances.

>Training apart this is the only safe way.

NO, forcefully removing a growling dog from somewhere it wants to remain is a very UNSAFE way and can result in the situation escalating, when repeated, into actual biting and full-on guarding behaviour.  Please don't give advice out like this online, it is harmful to dogs and to dog-owner relationships.

>It is in no way confrontational.

Yes, it is if your dog is guarding a place and you are removing it from that place.  I fail to see how it CANNOT be confrontational.  You want different things.  The dog wants to stay there.  You want it to move.  What can be more confrontational than that?

>And I have never known it cause a problem.

In my experience of hundreds and hundreds of dogs, of almost every breed, and over many years and in my professional experience, this type of persistently forcing what you want on a guarding dog - whether that dog is guarding a bed, a bone, a bowl, or a location - frequently causes problems, is responsible for horrific bites and injuries and has led on several instances I can think of, to a dog being PTS.

>dogs do have to know where they stand

So I'm glad we've established that we are talking about dominance, after all then.  No, dogs don't need to 'know where they stand' in terms of a hierarchy or pecking order.  They just do what works.  You can capitalise on that by ensuring that what works is also what you want.

>because they know what you ask is what they must do

Or what?  Or you will make them do it, anyway?  Even pushing a dog's bum down into a sit is using an aversive - the dog sits to escape the uncomfortable pressure of your fingers pushing on its back.  Dogs do what earns them rewards and what enables them to avoid punishment.  Punishment is fraught with fall-out and very difficult to use with the desired effects, even if we leave the ethics aside.  Rewards are the only other way to train. 

> you can't always wait for the required result in order to reinforce it.

That's why you use a lure, by way of food.  You can also use shaping or capturing, but yes, then you would be waiting for the dog to offer the behaviour for itself.  If you want to speed that up, food lures come into play.

>If you are training a 'sit' no problem you just wait for the sit and then reward the action but there are times when this is not possible for example if your youngster runs into a children's play area you don't stand there clicker and treat in hand you damned well go and collect the dog apologising as you go.

Sorry, I'm completely lost - what does this have to do with the case at hand?  Reward-based dog training is not only about giving rewards for behaviour you like, it is equally (if not more so) about preventing your dog from doing the things you don't like.  Since once a dog has done something unwanted, and found out how fabulous it was (been rewarded by it), the dog is only likely to re-attempt it in future.  Prevention is what you work on, not making your dog do something forcefully, or physically making it move.  You get out of that situation in the safest way you can (using a food lure and rewarding the pup for moving) and then you try to prevent it happening again in future.  I'd hazard a guess, though, that if a pup had guarding behaviours like this, it would not only happen on the sofa, but if you wanted (for some reason) to get the pup to move off its own bed, or if it were sleeping in front of the TV and someone interfered with its sleep there in some way:

There are 2 different issues here, one is teaching a pup not to go somewhere you don't want (see next paragraph), the other is dealing with guarding behaviour.  I would put the latter as a higher priority because it has dire consequences if not addressed.  That is what my advice, to this point, has been about.

Regarding preventing a dog from being somewhere you don't want, in this instance, you would keep the door to the room with the sofa closed all the time you're not supervising, you would crate the pup, you would have the pup trail a long-line, so should she attempt to jump onto the sofa, she is unable to - if the pup is never able to do this, the pup never will do it.  Case in point:  I live in an open plan house.  Whenever we have a puppy, we put stairgates up for at least the first 18 mnths of that new dog's life.  When the stairgates are removed, the dogs never attempt to go upstairs.  In their minds going upstairs is an impossible barrier, psychologically.  That same barrier needs to exist for getting on the sofa.  It is harder, because you can't use something like stairgates and have to rely on supervision and prevention, but it works.  Same thing goes for countersurfing in the kitchen - observe, supervise, and shut out or crate puppy when this isn't possible, keep food shut away so puppy won't get rewarded if it tries it - if it never works, it never will happen.

> I am all for using positive methods of training but you have to use some common sense and calling a pup or dog down from an area that is too high for them to safely jump from is not good common sense.

No - forcefully removing a growling puppy from their comfortable sleeping place is not good common sense.  In fact, it's really quite dangerous advice.   

As for the jumping issue - this situation, as I just explained, should not happen often because excellent supervision should be put in place to ensure the puppy isn't getting on the sofa frequently. Jumping off the sofa once is not going to damage a puppy's joints (puppies jump more in play with each other than getting off the sofa once!).  Jumping off the sofa repeatedly would not be good - which is why, as explained above, prevention is the answer.

Prevention, though, is not going to address the underlying guarding issues.  To do that, whenever you want to move the pup - even if off its own bed or when it is sleeping in front of the TV - you're going to need to pre-empt any guarding behaviour before it has happened and use a food lure so the pup comes to quite like being asked to move, as it results in something positive.

Well that is fine you train your dog as you wish and I will carry on in the same way as I have for the last 65 years - have always found my methods work both for me and anyone who asks for help but I will not and would not force my opinions onto anyone who did not want them so the OP can choose what they do and I will carry on in normal.

>They get the wrong end of the stick over what is said, blame the wrong person for saying it , accuse others of purposely mis-reading for the sake of an argument and threaten punishment of the Ignore button feature. The only ones mis-reading or mis-understanding the context of what was said was them!

An excellent summing-up. A shame there hasn't been an apology to Nova for the unwarranted attack on her.

>Of course, if you are talking about a puppy which shows no signs of growling or guarding behaviour, picking it up and putting it on the floor is no problem. 

Even if there is puppy growling there's nothing confrontational about gently removing the pup and putting it on the floor with praise when it's down there.

You previously described wiggling a houseline (let's assume that the pup hasn't chewed it and isn't lying on it) to get the pup's attention. Then what? It doesn't want to get off for a titbit; it's not going to come off when it's told to. What do you do now?

Thanks JG & FloJO, I do get irritated with evangelizing no matter what the message so perhaps I brought the comments down on my own head, in trying not to be personal I may well have been ambiguous.

When dealing with animals there is no black and white and I do get very cross with people who suggest there is, we have been training dogs successfully for hundreds of years long before anyone thought of click & treat and although it works well in most situations it has to be accepted that it is not the answer in every case.

I agree Nova.  I would do the same as you in the particular situation being discussed.  I would never claim to be an expert trainer just stuck with what has worked for me for 30 years.  I think the only rule necessary is consistancy.

Of course you can get GSDs to come downstairs without a fuss with similar training but will that stop the GSD ever going upstairs?  I doubt it, as again the behaviour of going up and down is made a game with rewards and positive interaction. 

My post wasn't to demonstrate the rights/wrongs, it was just an example of how you'd move a dog without physically picking it up or dragging it on a house line.

Sorry, I did misread the place comment as being Nova's - I don't actually live on this forum so again apologies for not being back sooner.

I still get a distinct feeling some people are being purposefully antagonistic which is why I have set them to ignore.

I will continue to give advice based on the safest possible methods available - I am afraid I stand by the fact that confronting a growling pup or dog is NOT the safest possible method, no matter how many times it may have worked for someone else, *I* deal with cases on an almost daily basis where people have done just such things and within months have a dog who snaps and bites without warning.

Perhaps the difference is that I deal with a lot of rescue dogs and so what might be appropriate with a puppy would not be with an adult animal new to the person, but then, that said, many of the dogs I deal with came into rescues precisely BECAUSE of these problems.
In fact theres a collie I am working with at the moment who at 18 months is looking for his THIRD home, because his growling was ignored as a pup and an adolescent and now he snaps instead - his growling as a pup was in fact initially because he was in pain and yet despite knowing that, his second home still ignored his growling .. and now he snaps and I have no doubt if pushed further, he would bite.

It may be worth bearing in mind that whilst some people have the experience to know when you can get away with going 'oh don't be silly' to a growling pup, there are lots of people reading forums like this who absolutely do NOT have that knowledge - those people cause massive problems, get bitten and in the end the result is often a dead dog. I would rather not take that risk, so as I say, I tailor  my advice as much as possible to prevent that.

It may be worth bearing in mind that whilst some people have the experience to know when you can get away with going 'oh don't be silly' to a growling pup, there are lots of people reading forums like this who absolutely do NOT have that knowledge - those people cause massive problems, get bitten and in the end the result is often a dead dog. I would rather not take that risk, so as I say, I tailor  my advice as much as possible to prevent that.

But we were talking to someone with a 20 week old puppy, no one suggested you use the method on a stray dog you may happen to meet. Given that a puppy should not jump off a chair I can't think of a better way than to pick it up and put it in a more suitable place, do it a few times if needed and the pup will stop getting onto items that are too high for it.

Training is not all encompassing so perhaps if the question asked was answered as straightforwardly as possible with the rider that this advice applies to this pup only if you think people are stupid enough to apply advice given for a puppy to an adult dog.

Agree with you totally, if you start when the pup is young then it will learn that growling gets it no where.
As the question was about a puppy I would expect answers to refer to a puppy, dealing with aggressive adult dogs is a totally different matter and something that should never be discussed over a forum, you need to meet the dog and owner to asses the situation
One would hope that you would never need to pick up and carry an adult GSD downstairs. If you have had it from a pup it should be well trained enough to obey when you call it

Thank you Ingrid you put matters so much more clearly than I managed. IMO an adult GSD should not be going up stairs anyway unless that is allowed so you would have no need to call it down.

Edit to add - I totally agree that advice on training problems with adult dogs should not be given on a forum just as veterinary advice should not be given either.

dog and owner to asses the situation
One would hope that you would never need to pick up and carry an adult GSD downstairs. If you have had it from a pup it should be well trained enough to obey when you call it

Of course he does! The point that I was demonstrating, is that there are OTHER ways to move a dog/pup whether adult or otherwise, than simply picking it up!

Nova said "Thank you Ingrid you put matters so much more clearly than I managed. IMO an adult GSD should not be going up stairs anyway unless that is allowed so you would have no need to call it down.

Edit to add - I totally agree that advice on training problems with adult dogs should not be given on a forum just as veterinary advice should not be given either. "

If we were to refrain from giving advice on training problems with adult dogs, the Behaviour section on this site would be very quiet as would a lot of other training/behaviour forums. Sorry but that is ludicrous! I think Rabid has explained him/her self very well but as we all have different ideas/experiences you will never please all the people all the time.

Sorry that should have read aggressive problems - there is little problem helping someone with the usual training needs but to try and deal with an aggressive dog through a third party is IMO foolhardy.

I do now think this has moved so far from the original request for help with a 20 week old dog we should leave the OP to deal with the problem she has before her pup is an adult.

>You previously described wiggling a houseline (let's assume that the pup hasn't chewed it and isn't lying on it) to get the pup's attention. Then what? It doesn't want to get off for a titbit; it's not going to come off when it's told to. What do you do now?

Who says the pup isn't going to get off for a titbit??  Do you really think a pup would rather sit on the sofa than get down for pate or garlic sausage or a sardine??  If so, I think you'd need to be working on motivation issues as well, reducing food, working for food and not getting it for free and a whole range of other things.

Your question is really (sorry) a bit silly - it's like saying 'You've asked the puppy to sit, and it hasn't?  Then what??  It doesn't want to sit for a titbit, it's not going to sit when it's told to, what do you do now?'.  Of course the answer is the same:  You increase the motivation to sit. 

I object to there being made a distinction between a growling puppy and a mature aggressive dog:  Mature aggressive dogs started somewhere, they didn't emerge out of the blue.  You are looking at one in the making, and the advice those of you are giving who suggest that it should be physically moved is counterproductive and harmful.  The right intervention now (ie not opposing the puppy and forcing it, but making it think it is a good thing to do as you ask) could be the difference between an adult dog with a serious guarding problem and a normal pet. 

Given that the two of us who regularly work with puppies or dogs in a professional training/behaviour capacity are advising the same thing here, you'd think we would be given a bit more credence. 

Here is a scenario I encounter frequently.  Owner tells you that the puppy kept growling when they wanted to pick it up to take it out to toilet at night.  Each time it growled a little louder.  They didn't believe the puppy is 'serious', since it is their little, cute puppy, so they just shrugged it off and took it out anyway.  Last week, they went to pick up their now 6 month old puppy to take it out, and it bit them.  They cannot believe it - they never saw it coming, it happened out of the blue, there were no warning signs, etc etc.  Case in point.  There are always warning signs, but if people don't heed them, behaviour is often escalated to the next level.

>Here is a scenario I encounter frequently.  Owner tells you that the puppy kept growling when they wanted to pick it up to take it out to toilet at night.  Each time it growled a little louder.  They didn't believe the puppy is 'serious', since it is their little, cute puppy, so they just shrugged it off and took it out anyway.

How did they pick it up and take it out? Were they confrontational; did they scold it or smack it for growling? Or did they calmly and affectionately pick it up and take it out, chatting normally to it (it's proven that talking calmly affects your body language and pheromones which the dog will pick up on) so that pup learned that it was no big deal and there was no need to get stressy? The first approach will cause the situation to escalate by teaching the pup that an approaching owner means trouble. The second approach destresses the pup instead.

They calmly but confidently picked it up and took it out.  They were not stressed, because they didn't think it was serious that their pup was growling.

To Nova, JG and Ingrid

If it makes you feel better about the stance you have taken (and I would too) I will refer you to The Perfect Puppy a book recommended for years to anyone about to or just got a new puppy.  I have seen it recommended time and again on this forum.

On Page 85 it tells how to deal with Challenges (from pups) and How to Cope and the example is of a puppy getting on the sofa and growling as the owner approaches to remove him.  It is said that you should react instantly and with enough force to let him know he must never do this again.  It states your voice is a powerful tool and you should use it while immediately removing said pup from the chair. It should be a scary experience for the pup (just as a timely lesson from its mother would be I believe)

Clearly, none of us suggested or intended anyone to shout or frighten any pup when we said we would scoop him up and unceremoniously put him on the floor without a word.  It seems we should have been even stronger in our message to a 'challenging' pup according to one of the 'leading experts' in puppy development.

Hope that is of some reassurance and helps the OP in making her decisions. 

I personally never felt bad about it anyway, it's worked for me with all the pups I've had.
As you state from the book, it's no different to how a mother dog treats her pups  to keep them inline.
Just do it confidently and without a fuss.
Very few dogs in my experience are pre-disposed to be aggressive it is the old nature versus nurture thing

It's all right, I feel totally confident that the method I use works and doesn't result in a disturbed,aggressive dog. The proof is in the pudding. :-)

If this is The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, then you must have an old copy of the book.  The book has recently come out in a new edition, and Gwen has been careful to remove these particular passages from it because she recognised that it was potentially harmful advice.  So, yes, thanks for that point.

>The proof of the pudding

... is in a family upset by their best friend having bitten their child, unable to trust him any longer and in the process of rehoming him after following advice similar to what you are giving out, here.

Just becuase a method has worked for you for many years does not mean it is the best method available. Training techniques move on better ideas come to the fore. Training clubs used to allow check/choke chains, Barbara Woodhouse was hailed as a great trainer.
Nowdays check/choke chains have been banned at training clubs and Barbara Woodhouse methods have largely been discredited. Things move on.
The age of the puppy is immaterial it is the behaviour that it is exhibiting that is important, and using force on a dog with guarding instincts is just asking for trouble.
What works for one breed may not work for another or individual dogs within that breed.
Picking up a dog that is growling is not suitable advice to give on a public forum. Such action could push the dog to the next stage which would be to bite.
Yes there is room for different opinions, but safety has to be the main priority.

>The age of the puppy is immaterial it is the behaviour that it is exhibiting that is important,

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Normal puppy behaviour is different to normal adult dog behaviour. Even adult dogs allow for 'puppy licence' and sensible owners takethis into account and don't claim their puppy is aggressive because it mouths them.

I would still like to know how you would remove a puppy from a chair or settee without allowing it to jump down unless you pick it up. With this sort of advice it is not surprising that you hear of people who keep their pups in cages pretty well all the time.

The age of the puppy is immaterial it is the behaviour that it is exhibiting that is important

Your statement only makes sense if you also point out that - a puppy exhibits puppy behaviour and and adult will exhibit adult behaviour to suggest anything else would, lets face it, be stupid.

If this is The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, then you must have an old copy of the book.  The book has recently come out in a new edition, and Gwen has been careful to remove these particular passages from it because she recognised that it was potentially harmful advice.  So, yes, thanks for that point.

That's not quite correct as I had my friends go through the new revised paperback and kindle versions yesterday.

What Gwen Bailey says in her Foreward in the revised edition is that she is pleased her original edition worldwide best seller (selling houndreds of thousands of copies since 1995) has helped so many people raise well-adjusted pups so there wasn't that much wrong with the original. 

In the new version she still advocates the use of a loud verbal No or Arrggh to deter a pup from doing something you don't want, or physically blocking its route or Moving it away if it resists/ignores the previous suggestions.

In her chapter on leadership she states the 4 important factors that owners of pups need to create are to:

provide a safe place, control resources, use good communication and Win all Challenges (from the pup).

What she has done is remove the part that advises owners to raise their voice so loud that it scares the pup.  She has made that change, not because it is harmful but because as she says in her Foreward it creates  a "less intimidating" approach that she now wants to promote.

What she says is likely to be harmful and create an aggressive pup is an aggressive approach from the owners and the use of physical punishment.

And that is as accurate an account of the 'revised' edition as I can give based on 4 peoples reading of the matter.

Well, as was said in previous posts by Nova and others,  they "would scoop up and move" said pup from where it shouldn't be.  There is no  aggression involved, no shouting loud enough to scare and "intimidate" the pup and no punishment. So no harm done.

Also, you may not be familiar with Lindsay's stuff on Early Social Learning of the Oppositional Behaviour in puppies but it makes very interesting reading. 

There will always be differing opinions and we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Yes there is room for different opinions, but safety has to be the main priority.

"But Safety has to be the main priority" - exactly, so how do you remove this elevated puppy with safety, the puppies safety is what I mean and what I have been asking for some while now assuming one is not allowed to pick it up which seems the sensible and safest way.

Stupid !! Nonsense !!!! I find some of the posters on here to be quite arrogant and rude. I am not stupid and I do not talk nonsense.

I hate to blow the illusion but not all puppies are happy little fur balls.

Having been involved in a dog training club for many years, based in a large city, myself and other trainers have come accross puppies under six months of age who were showing aggressive tendencies. Suprising when it happens as it is not the norm. I have had personal experience of a couple of Akita's, a GSD, BC, Yorkshire terrier and a fourteen week old Siberian Husky all showing aggressive tendencies. This was over a 10 year period, but these dogs were not just puppy nipping or biting.

Obviously some of these puppies are quite likely to have been BY bred or obtained from the local puppy supermarket who were sourcing their pups from Ireland and Wales and quite probably they had not been handled or socialised properly, so a very different scenario to a home bred well handled pup.
Who said anything about keeping dogs in cages I certainly didn't !!!!

To answer Nova's question re the elevated puppy, I would throw some cushions, pillows or an old quilt on to the floor and lure the puppy onto that with a tasy, sausage, peice of chicken etc. Then I would block off the chair or place the puppy was guarding, with a pile of books, old fireguard, whatever I had to hand so it could not go back to that area again.
This blocking off would not be forever, like another poster said about gates, the dog becomes accustomed to where they can and can't go and that stays with them even when the barriers have been removed.

"Given that the two of us who regularly work with puppies or dogs in a professional training/behaviour capacity are advising the same thing here, you'd think we would be given a bit more credence."

Ah but Rabid some people are not willing to learn new/alternative ways of doing things and you cannot teach them anything lol!

I would throw some cushions, pillows or an old quilt on to the floor

And how do you stop the pup jumping off in delight or fear whilst you gather and throw these items on the floor.

Stupid !! Nonsense !!!! I find some of the posters on here to be quite arrogant and rude

This is not directed at the person but the methods being suggested.

I am not arrogant nor too old to learn but I do believe in applying common-sense and I think that means scoop the pup up and move it, nothing will convince me that treating the pup for jumping on to pillows and old quilts will teach it not to climb on the furniture nor will blocking it's assent.

It need to know it is not allowed not that if it manages to climb up on something you will treat it for getting off, that is teaching it to do exactly the opposite to what is wanted.  (climb on the furniture and I will give you a treat for getting off) that is teaching get off not don't get on.

If it was directed at me personally or what I said it is still offensive.

We are not talking merely about a pup climbing up and teaching it not to, we are talking about a pup growling and guarding which is a completely different scenario.

If the pup jumps down before you get the cushions or quilt, mission accomplished the dog moved from where you wanted.

If you scooped up one of the puppies I mentioned in an earlier post, you may get away with using force once or even twice, but the 14 week Siberian Husky nearly had a fellow trainers face off when she put one finger in it's collar on a recall, would not have been a good idea to scoop that pup up IMO.

If you scooped up one of the puppies I mentioned in an earlier post, you may get away with using force

Another problem, why would scooping up your puppy be thought to be using force, puppies have to be picked up there is no way you could socialise a pup without picking it up, no way you could bath it, put it on the vets table, I could go on but I am sure you will see why I find your saying the picking up a puppy is using force it just silly.

>I could go on but I am sure you will see why I find your saying the picking up a puppy is using force it just silly.

Exactly. It's routine handling, which all dogs should be taught to accept from their earliest days. You never know when it could save its life.

It's not routine handling because the puppy is objecting to it.  There is nothing 'routine' about a young puppy growling when it is handled or moved.

In puppy class, if I am teaching routine handling and there is a puppy which doesn't want a particular part of its body touched and is growling when that part is touched, I teach people how to back off and respect the growling message, how to proceed more carefully and to desensitise the puppy to being reached for and grabbed.  We DON"T physically impose ourselves on a growling puppy.

If a dog is afraid of another dog, and is growling at the other dog, we ensure that the dog it is afraid of is restrained and not free to approach it:  Again, we don't allow the feared stimulus to come closer before the puppy is more accepting of it, or aggression could well be the result.

It doesn't matter what the context is, imposing yourself on a growling dog or puppy is unhelpful and harmful advice. 

There IS a difference between a growling puppy and a growling adult, and that's simply that it's a lot easier to enable a puppy to feel safe enough not to growl, because it is young enough to learn.  However this won't happen if you force yourself on it whilst growling and ignore the message which is carried in the growling.  That will only ensure the puppy feels that obviously it wasn't making itself clear enough to be understood and will need to growl louder next time, or perhaps even to bite.

>In the new version she still advocates the use of a loud verbal No or Arrggh to deter a pup from doing something you don't want, or physically blocking its route or Moving it away if it resists/ignores the previous suggestions.

Yes, you can move a NON-GUARDING puppy away anywhere, physically.  Similarly, if your puppy is digging up your daffodils, you can say 'Arrgg' loudly to distract it.  But please do show me where she says it is acceptable to deal with guarding behaviour in a young puppy by physically moving it?  Please quote the passage specifically about guarding.  Thanks.

Exactly Rabid we are not saying that you should never pick up any puppy, or do all the normal routine handling grooming etc. We are talking about a dog who is growling and showing aggressive tendencies, quite different from normal puppy bahaviour.
In answer to Nova's point you are not rewarding the dog for getting up on the furniture and growling, you are rewarding the dog for coming to you when asked.
You are simply teaching the puppy that when it goes to it's owner it get something nice, by responding in certain ways they get a reward.
Getting the puppy to leave the area it was guarding and come forward towards it's owner is turning negative behaviour into positive behaviour.
Over time puppies learn that when they respond in certain ways good things happen, all the treat is doing is facilitating this, the more the dog wants the treat the more likely you are to get the desired result ie. The dog gives up the object or area it has been guarding.