20 week old pup has started to growl when she has settled down to sleep somewhere inappropriate and I try to move her.
If it was just me in the house I wouldn't mind but I have kids and they have friends visiting so I don't want any aggressive behavior.
How do I go about this ?

When mine try this (they all do at some point - my son used to grumble when I shifted his feet off the furniture too!) I just say "Oh no don't you be such a silly baby! Who taught you that bad language? I blame your father" or chat along those lines and gently but firmly move them anyway.

Try to wake her with something nice - think about whether you'd growl if you were sleeping somewhere comfortable and somebody grabbed you and moved you! Lure her away from the inappropriate sleeping place with a treat, and don't let the kids mess with her when she's not properly awake. :-)

LOL JG that is my attitude as well, scoop the pup up and put it where you want it to be mumbling something along the lines of don't you speak to me like that young man my home and you will sleep where I tell you, place it in it's bed and then tell it what a good boy it is.

As you say most try it but only lasts a week if that.

Think that what you say will make your body language change and it is probable helpful as it will stop you being amused at the youngsters cheek.

Also I would not trust other peoples kids around my dogs unsupervised.  Children should not be unsupervised around any dog, and vice versa, too much room for misunderstandign/silliness.

When children had friends round the dogs were put somewhere they couldn't be interfered with, or kept by me.

So have pups crate in a room the visitors aren't allowed in, when my kids were small, my first dog a highly strung herdign breed would be offered the opportunity to go upstairs to chill in my bedroom, whcih she usually was more than happy to do, she lvoed my kids but coudln't cope with more.

I would put a houseline on the pup, assuming you are home, so the pup trails this everywhere.  When you want to move pup, approach with treats and take hold of the end of the house line.  Very gently (just to get attention) wiggle the line, to wake pup up, show treats and say 'off' (or whatever word you want to use for telling pup to move).  It probably won't take much repeating.  Soon your pup will quite like you approaching whilst sleepy and asking her to move!

Google 'houseline- no pup should be without one.  Only cost £2.50...

Yep - I make moving where I say (off, on, over etc) a game way before this sort of thing occurs, but you can do it afterwards as well - houselines are brilliant for making something happen without getting confrontational.

I don't ever want to let a dog think growling is ignored (ie, that I will carry on doing whatever it was the dog didn't like) because thats a slippery slope to a dog not bothering to growl, but biting instead, and invariably its not ME that will get bitten, its the visiting child or adult who tries it.

So if I know a pup is going to be reluctant to move and might growl, I encourage rather than demand - I avoid the growl happening in the first place and make the pup think it was allllll its own idea to move and do what I ask, that way they don't fear me and theres no confrontation, and no learning that growling is pointless, just bite instead.

It would depend on breed but at 20 weeks I don't think I would be using a house line, useful as they are, would rather pick it up and move it after all there will be times when you may need to lift the dog so it will have to learn some time and easier when it is still a baby, after all you can't bath a pup on a house line you have to use hands,

If you pick the dog up, you are encroaching on its space and making it do something you don't want:  You are setting yourself up in opposition to it.

Far easier to make the dog think it's doing something of its own volition.  That's after all, what all good, reward based, training is about.

And suppose I want to lift it into the sink or onto the grooming or vets table?   Would rather my pup knew if I or anyone else needed/wanted to lift it they have the right to do so without any complaint from the dog.

Um - you teach the dog to be picked up, I can't bend that far so my little dogs are taught to put their paws up onto something (my knee, the sofa, the bed) and then lifted - with dogs who don't like restraint or physical contact I work on that first.

If you have a pup then its pretty easy to sit on the floor and reward being touched, kneel and reward paws up on your knee and being touched, stand and reward a pup for staying still whilst you bend down and touch/restrain etc.

I totally agree that its necessary to teach any dog that being handled, lifted, restrained is safe and not a frightening experience - but the way you go about that is crucial - if you force it then yeah, YOU might be able to pick up your dog whenever you like.. but the chances are pretty high that someone else trying it is going to get bitten if your dog doesn't actually like it, or finds the process uncomfortable or frightening.

Um - you teach the dog to be picked up

My point was you can't do that with a house line.

A pup from the nest will allow it's self to be picked up, well it will if the breeder has done their job properly, so you just continue and if and when your pup complains you ignore after all you can't have a pup telling you it has now decided it will call the tune. You don't need to shout, scold or fit a shock collar you don't need to treat either till he relaxes then you can if you like.

Nooo.. i don't recall anyone said you could. YOu can get round the problem of a dog growling because it doesn't want to be moved partially with the aid of a houseline though..

But I totally disagree with ignoring a pup growling, or that you can't have a pup telling you it has now decided it will call the tune - I want my dogs to communicate with me and to feel comfortable to do so - that is how I raise and train my dogs and funnily enough  I can do anything I like with them and not only do they welcome it, but I know immediately if something is wrong.

For example, I was brushing Kelda earlier and she made  a tight face and tiny grr  - by your reckoning she was 'calling the tune'??

No, she was telling me she had a tangle I hadn't seen and it was pulling - I know her, I know how I raised her so I know when she tells me something its important, so I looked and found the tangle (and it was a nasty little knot pulling right on her tummy).

Dogs growl when they don't want something to happen - they don't want things to happen because they fear them, they are frightened, uncomfortable, in actual pain - I want my dogs to tell me when such t hings  happen so that I know about, I can investigate and sort out the problem. To ignore it and decide that the dog is trying to boss me around is just silly, if I had ignored Kelda I would have pulled that knot hard and hurt her - or do you t hink dogs should just accept painful things because they are dogs and we are humans?

With a little puppy testing out how he can control the world around him, you just set things up so that he doesn't fear anything - make it all fun and rewarding, theres no need to force the issue and insist he submits, why make it an issue in the first place?

Think we will have to agree to disagree, do not think a dog telling you that you are pulling on a knot is the same thing at all as a pup deciding it wants to lay outside all night and although used to being picked up complains because it does not want to come in.

Think we will have to agree to disagree, do not think a dog telling you that you are pulling on a knot is the same thing at all as a pup deciding it wants to lay outside all night and although used to being picked up complains because it does not want to come in.

I agree with you Nova.

I remember reading (Lindsay I think) that dogs show defensive aggression (fear) when they feel threatened or fear physical pain and dogs show anger or offensive aggression  when their comfort has been compromised.

Moving them from a seat you don't want them is all about loss of comfort on does not evoke fear, whereas pulling on a knot when grooming might if they have previously had a painful experience when being groomed.

The two aggressions have different motives and involve different emotions and so should be treated differently.

I look at growling when moved as resource guarding; guarding the resource of that spot on the sofa. So I might move the puppy and then put them back again, and then move them again in a few minutes, or give them a cuddle before moving them, and then reward greatly when they've moved. Can't say entirely though as I've never had one of mine growl at me.

> Try to wake her with something nice - think about whether you'd growl if you were sleeping somewhere comfortable and somebody grabbed you and moved you

I agree, some puppies sleep so deeply that a grumble is almost instinctive and done before they are even aware it's you.  I used to tickle mine awake gently and then call them from their spot with the reward of something nice.  If all else failed, and they were struggling to wake up then I'd walk off and make interesting noises from around the corner - my dogs have always been so nosy that they can't resist coming for a 'look-see'.

As a last resort with a truly slumbering, impossible to wake chap I have resorted to tipping the sofa up and letting him slide gently onto a pile of cushions.

...it's funny, my wire haired vizsla's are definitely not wide awake dogs.  My boys have always been deep sleepers as puppies - one of them used to be slid around the group ring whilst waiting for our turn.  Woe betide us if we were in after 5pm, his internal dinner bell went off and then he'd want to go to bed :)

>A pup from the nest will allow it's self to be picked up, well it will if the breeder has done their job properly, so you just continue and if and when your pup complains you ignore after all you can't have a pup telling you it has now decided it will call the tune

No, that's exactly how to make the problem even worse.  If you set yourself up against the puppy, then the puppy will only growl louder next time, and even louder the next time - until it decides that what it's doing isn't working to scare you off, so it had better escalate things further.  Granted, not every puppy will do this - but why take the risk, especially when giving advice out on an online forum where you don't know the OP or their dog??

I've no idea what the stuff about grooming and being picked up for grooming has to do with anything:  Of course you can pick a pup up whilst it is wearing a houseline...??  The house line just dangles down.  And of course, if a puppy is showing no signs of disliking being picked up, you don't need to do anything like giving it a treat and can just go right ahead and pick it up.  What we're talking about here is a puppy which has started to develop a problem, which needs to be nipped in the bud before it turns into something serious.

Almost all aggression originates in fear, and certainly any aggression coming from a very young puppy originates in fear.  If you were in deep sleep, a million miles away, and suddenly were woken up by someone picking you up, don't you think you might perhaps be afraid until you'd woken up properly and realised what was going on!? 

Don't we tell children to leave sleeping dogs lie, and blame it on parents not supervising properly if they get bitten after harrassing a sleeping dog?? 

Why is this instance any different?

>I look at growling when moved as resource guarding; guarding the resource of that spot on the sofa.

You are exactly right, it is extremely similar - almost location or position-guarding.  And we wouldn't walk up to a puppy which was growling when someone wanted to take an object away, and forcefully take it away - we would teach the puppy that us approaching is a positive thing, resulting in positive outcomes, so the puppy starts to look forward to our approaching and loses any desire to guard from us - so, in this situation, we teach the dog that us approaching whilst it is dozing and wanting it to move, results in positive outcomes and so doesn't need to be 'guarded' against.

> So I might move the puppy and then put them back again, and then move them again in a few minutes,

This would be analogous to someone taking away an object from a resource-guarding dog, to show the dog that the object can be taken away.  What effect does it have?  It only further reinforces in the dog's mind that we want to take away their precious objects and that therefore we're a threat which needs to be guarded against.  Ie - it makes resource-guarding worse, not better.  For the same reason forcing a dog which is position-guarding (let's call it), to move, is again only going to make them resent you approaching them even more.

>and then reward greatly when they've moved.

That's the bit which would work.  But how do you get the dog to move, without being a threat in the first place?  With a house line.

>But how do you get the dog to move, without being a threat in the first place?  With a house line.

Basically that's no more than using force at a safe distance.

It would seem I have a different attitude to the way my dogs behave in my home, guess I treat them to some extent with a good deal of tolerance by I have rules and they are my rules and my home.

Have never considered that they will not obey my wishes and in the most part they do and when they don't I make it clear I am not best pleased. I don't hit, shout at or chastise my dogs, I don't consider I need to train my dogs to share my home with me although I do train them to comply and that means what every I do or ask is what happens and I have never considered that every little thing would need to be trained and it has been my experience thus far that it has not.

>I encourage rather than demand

Same here.  I won't go out of my way to be confrontational.  I don't consider that to be "giving in" to the dog either.

I don't demand I just expect.

I expect good behaviour, but only because I've encouraged it. I don't 'expect' my dogs or puppies to do something they haven't been trained for, and if they aren't doing what I ask I look to the source, instead of just making them do it any way.

Rabid, I move and then return the same way I give back a stolen item; to reassure that me taking it away is NOT the end of the good thing, so that it doesn't signal the end of that resource. Instead I take away, give back, take away again and reward. I do it when they pick up a cigarette packet as puppies in the street, it has to become a non-threatening game to them so that they don't find my taking away the resource a threat or signal to guard.

Do agree that using a house line can work, but I would actually rather clap my hands gently and call them to you as you walk away; this is a really non-confrontational way of getting them off the sofa, you're actually moving away from them, and encouraging them to you. Then reward like crazy. I actually teach the off command too but as I said, I've never had my dogs growl at me before. Granted my eldest will try to bite me if I tug a knot in his coat (v. low tolerance threshold!) but he's abysmal at warning.

Speaking of warning... I never recommend telling off for growling to anyone, as you're removing the warning sign that precludes a bite.

I really really don't like the idea of taking then giving back (or indeed, move and return), because as much as your intentions are good, its how your dog perceives your intentions.. and again dogs will tolerate something from their owner, but not from someone else, and they may mistake someone elses actions as about to take something away (or move them) and react badly when the person wasn't going to do that at all..

Far better to encourage, reward, teach a clear command or in an emergency situation, create a distraction elsewhere, than to confront the issue head on and move a dog who is saying clearly 'do not move me'..

For dogs taking stuff, pickign stuff up - swapping is much the better tactic - think about it, if I take your purse... and then I give it back.. which of those two events held more meaning for you? Now imagine that a total stranger grabs something... are you going to wait to find out if they will give it back?

I teach puppies to bring me things they find because its a fun game, its super rewarding to bring me what they have because I will swap it for something nicer, I might also give it back after having swapped it, I might not, but I will always react pleasurably and rewardingly when a pup has something in their mouth and they head towards me with it. If they don't head towards me I do something super distracting and exciting so they will come my way and we can do a swap (or they will drop whatever they have because what I am doing is more fun).

By the time a pup is 6 months old they have no thought of taking stuff or guarding it, because they have NEVER had any need to do so. Similarly they don't mind where I move them to, or when, because they have never had any reason to see being moved as a bad thing.

I do expect my dogs who I have had from puppies to behave as I wish them to - but only in situations they have learned to understand what is expected from them. A lot of this happens almost automatically, its the way I live and it doesn't feel like 'teaching' but it must be because they are learning.

With the rescues, I cannot 'expect' them to behave the way I want, they would be wildly guessing and liable to fail and that would be unfair, and it would result in accidents and disaster. I concentrate on teaching the most important things (such as 'get off the sofa when I ask' and 'move over when I ask' and 'drop that when I ask') and I find much of the rest again sinks in because I teach as I go along without really thinking about it.

The problem with telling people that dogs behave because you expect them to is that whilst YOUR expectations might be reasonable, and you very likely are teaching as you go with out noticing it, unfortunately the world (and particularly the internet) is FULL of people who actually do think that their dog will automatically KNOW all manner of things, just because they expect it.

For example, from the last two weeks - 1 person expects their rescue terrier to know the difference between friend and foe, shes had it a week and it barks at everyone passing the house and everyone entering the house.  Should she just continue to 'expect' this dog to know who is ok to bark at and  who isn't? Or do you think that would result in someone being bitten and a very unhappy dog?
Then theres the person with the jumping crossbreed - should she just expect him to know not to jump at people, or teach him not to? Some people actually do believe that their dog iwll behave PURELY because they expect it!

Just to clarify the situation.
This pup has got herself into a comfy place and is not asleep but she is in the wrong place and I want to move her.
This is a new behavior and I don't think she fears me as she has no need to, she just doesn't want to move !
Now I have learned from this forum not to tell her off for growling as she may stop growling and go straight to a bite, so I just wanted to know how best to go about moving her without escalating the situation or making it worse in the future.
I don't think she would move for a treat as I think she would prefer the prized comfy spot to a treat, and also I am concerned about rewarding the bad behavior of growling.
She has already worked out that if she grabs something she shouldn't have, such as a dirty sock from the washing, that she will get a game of me chasing her then a treat to swap when she finally decides to swap.

I think that teaching her a firm 'off' might be the thing to do.
Thanks for your replies.

Very interesting conversation...

When I brought my first Golden puppy home, I found myself calling the breeder after the first couple of weeks because the cocky little thing got onto my bed one day and growled at me when I went to get him down. Now as a novice owner, I had absolutley no idea how to deal with this. The advice given to me by the person who had bred this breed for over 30 years was to just get the puppy down and ignore the growling as he was "testing" me. To say I was nervous was an understatement. When it next happened, I actually closed my eyes cringing whilst doing it, puppy growlng all the time. Needless to say he didn't bite me and never ever "tested" me again! He was the perfect dog actually, a family dog who loved our children and all their friends.

I personally think the no nonsense approach is the best. The more we set up for confrontation, the more likely it is to happen. As for puppy sleeping where it shouldn't, why is he not in his bed? The rule in our house especially with children, is when puppy/dog is asleep in THEIR BED, they must never be disturbed. Therefore, puppy learns if it wants to sleep undisturbed it should go to it's bed. This should also be situated in a quiet place (as far as possible with children running around), as puppies can get way too overstimulated with children running around etc) which can easily cause nipping and undesirable behaviour). If there are visiting children at the house, perhaps puppy should be allowed to play for a while then put into another room where its bed is. I would not allow the puppy just to sleep wherever it decides, especially with my own or other children in the house, far too much risk that a child may trip or stand on the sleeping puppy.

Of course kids and dogs can be a great combination, but extra careful management is required, and boundaries learned and respected by both the children and dogs. Watch what's going on if pup/children are together. The minute the puppy looks like he needs to have a rest, remove him and put in his bed (can be taught "bed" command. Never let a tired puppy be with the children.

I do agree that encouragement rather than brute force always works better. I generally get a pup to do as I want by distraction or encouragement, and when older reverse psychology tends to play a part, e.g. if dogs are ignoring me, I will say "see ya" and off I trot. Now when I say this, they will hightail it over to me!! Somehow, I've managed to get to the situation with all my dogs where I can take anything off them (even chicken bones off the street), they don't protect anything and definitely don't see me as a "threat". If they pick up something I don't want, I simply dive in and get it out. So perhaps I've managed the naughty puppy stages correctly. I also think that if you pick your battles (very important) the minute you sound like you really mean it, they will listen! Just as the person who is wailing constantly at their dog invariably has the dog who completley ignores them and shows no respect!

Somebody mentioned tiny baby puppies allowing themselves to be picked up... in both my litters, we had one individual pup which would give a little growl when being picked up. So that puppy would be gently handled every day until it accepted it. In this case, I feel it is doing this as is unsure what is going on (eyes still closed). Absolutley amazing moment when going to the nest and seeing a row of puppies looking at you with eyes just opened, realising the voice they could hear and smell not their mother was me...

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

> I think that teaching her a firm 'off' might be the thing to do.

It needn't be firm as such but it does need to be reliable and consistent.  Teach her 'up' or 'on' as well as 'off' and build that into your daily exercises

If you think she won't move for a treat then your treats need to be better.  If it's one spot that is causing the issue then prevent rather than confront:  make that room/furniture out of bounds unless you are there to observe and discourage her from getting on in the first place or don't wait for her to get fully comfortable before asking her to get off.  As the previous poster also said - don't allow her to fall asleep anywhere, if she's droopy put her in her bed and keep the kids away

I find this possessive stage is just a phase with youngsters and easily managed if you stay on top of it.  You are smarter than she is so you just need to pre think the situation.  Same with stealing things: remove as much as you can then NEVER chase her (whatever she has) just make sure she knows that you have the most amazing, fantastic treats and toys that are only produced when she recalls to you.

Build up all the standard exercises such as recall, sit, down, leave, off, on, stay etc and whenever she's doing something you don't want then simply ask her to do something you prefer, and can reward.  Try liver cake, garlic sausage or ham and if you keep them in the same box/tin she'll soon learn to come running every time you move/touch/or shake the container!!  I have one dog that went all the way through to Gold Good Citizens and years later he still zooms in and shows me everything he knows if I pick up the clicker and open the fridge door :)

>Basically that's no more than using force at a safe distance.

No, if you read what I wrote above, I said 'wiggle the long line' - purely to get the puppy's attention.  That is not 'force' - I'm not pulling the puppy anywhere or making it do anything.

>so I just wanted to know how best to go about moving her without escalating the situation or making it worse in the future.

St Domingo, I'm an APDT dog trainer who teaches many different classes, offers one-to-ones and has worked with hundreds of puppies over many years.  I specialise in early development and have several puppy classes running at once.

I strongly advise that you use a houseline if you need to get the puppy's attention.

>I don't think she would move for a treat as I think she would prefer the prized comfy spot to a treat,

I would encourage you to consider what your idea of a 'treat' is, if you think your puppy would prefer to stay there rather than have a 'treat'.  A treat which is going to work in this instance isn't a Bonio or a processed dog treat, it is something incredibly tasty like a bit of ham, chicken, hotdog - essentially, just go to the fridge and see what you have left in there which you could use.  I can assure you that if treats can obtain reliable recalls out and about with great distractions, then treats can also encourage a dog to move off the sofa.  It's just a matter of finding a treat which is high enough value to be effective.

>and also I am concerned about rewarding the bad behavior of growling.

This is a concern which owners often have.  Having worked with many resource-guarding puppies, it just doesn't work that way.  The reward will most strongly reinforce the behaviour which just occurred.  And the behaviour which just occurred was getting off the sofa:  SO your treat is going to reward getting off the sofa, not growling. 

A further reason why the growling won't be rewarded, is because you are not going to wait for a growl any longer.  Knowing that your puppy has this propensity, you are going to anticipate it and - whenever you need to move the puppy, for now - go and get a treat, in advance of any growl.  In short:  There will be no growling happening, to be rewarded.

>She has already worked out that if she grabs something she shouldn't have, such as a dirty sock from the washing, that she will get a game of me chasing her then a treat to swap when she finally decides to swap.

This is the beginning of resource guarding.  Given that your puppy is already growling when you want to move her, are you now going to chase her when a 'hot' object is in her possession, and then force her to give it up to you?  If she 'has already worked out that if she grabs something...she will get a game' - who has taught her that?  You!  If you show any desire for the object she has, or make any attempt to get it, you are communicating to her 'that object is highly desirable'.  She is only going to want it even more, if she sees that you want it. 

The solution is to pretend total lack of interest in the object she has taken, go to the kitchen, get a treat.  (By that, I mean - something incredibly tasty, perhaps even a blob of pate, garlic sausage - whatever works.)  Put the treat on the puppy's nose and STILL make no attempt to take the object.  When the puppy smells the treat, she will release the object - STILL do not take it - because she will see you.  Instead, lure her forwards a few steps so she passes the dropped object, and, when her back is turned and she's not looking, then pick up the object.  It's a bit like a magician's sleight of hand.  The most important bit is that the puppy doesn't see you pick the object up.  For some reason, if they turn around and see it in your possession, it has no effect - what you don't want them to see is you taking possession of it.  (This is also the basis for the clicker retrieve, when you have a dog which has a tendency to value objects and teaching the clicker retrieve can also be an extremely effective solution to resource-guarding of objects.  But that is a bit more complicated, so I won't get into it.)

It takes many words to explain this, it takes only a few seconds to do it.  It pretends resource guarding before it has even happened and it should be taught in every puppy class.  You can start to put a word to this (Leave), and eventually you'll have a dog which will immediately leave things it has picked up, because it believes a treat is coming.  You can then sometimes provide a treat and sometimes not.

If you continue to chase the puppy around - and this is a puppy we already know has guarding tendencies - you are really pushing things towards the puppy beginning to guard objects from you as well, and seeing you as a threat to the object they've taken possession of.  Setting yourself up in opposition like this really doesn't work.  I have had people come to me with young dogs which have bitten them, as a direct result of them chasing the dog around the house.  Only last month a tibetan terrier owner told me they were considering rehoming their dog as it had bitten the cleaner and their 17 year old son, after running off with a feather duster.  To them, this had happened out of the blue.  When questioned what had happened in the past when the dog had picked something up, it emerged there was a long history of the dog running off with things and being chased and forced to give them up.  Even the dog's growls had been ignored because these people didn't believe their dog would actually bite them.  When this behaviour first started, they thought it was kind of cute in a puppy-ish way.

I can warn you repeatedly and I can point out what is likely to ultimately happen.  I can't 'make' you do what I suggest.  Perhaps you might at least try it.

I would encourage you to consider what your idea of a 'treat' is, if you think your puppy would prefer to stay there rather than have a 'treat'.  A treat which is going to work in this instance isn't a Bonio or a processed dog treat, it is something incredibly tasty like a bit of ham, chicken, hotdog - essentially, just go to the fridge and see what you have left in there which you could use.  I can assure you that if treats can obtain reliable recalls out and about with great distractions, then treats can also encourage a dog to move off the sofa.  It's just a matter of finding a treat which is high enough value to be effective.

Strange how attitudes change.  When I was doing a canine psychology course students were told NOT to do this as the owner would be estabilishing and perpetuating unwanted behaviour.

Many dogs quickly learn that if they jump up on the sofa and find a nice resting place their owner comes with a piece of really tasty, high value food titbits so the settling down in unwanted places is positively reinforced (operant conditioning) which is exactly what you don't want.

What is needed is a way to get the dog off the sofa first and then produce a treat so the dog clearly knows which behaviour has been rewarded.  Offering and enticing it off with food is counter-productive.

It's very difficult to approach a sofa with something smelly and tasty, without the dog knowing it's there.  So even if you tried to conceal your treat, the dog's going to know it's there.  But good luck to you, in attempting that.

No, the treat is rewarding the behaviour which just happened.  Sure, if you walked up to the dog on the sofa and fed it a treat there, you'd be rewarding the dog for being on the sofa. 

If the dog jumps off (whatever makes it jump off) and then you reward it, you are rewarding the getting off the sofa.

Same as we train no-jumping-up:  Dog jumps up, we turn our backs.  Dog sits, we reward.  Just before the dog sat, it was jumping up though.  So, are we then rewarding the jumping up, which came before the sit??  That would make a lot of dog training very difficult for sure.  I mean, how far back must the dog have done something unwanted, before you can reward a good behaviour without rewarding the bad behaviour???  Dog pulls on the lead, we don't reward.  Dog walks at heel, we reward.  Are we then rewarding the pulling, which just happened before the walking at heel??  Wow, a lot of training suddenly becomes very difficult.

Yes, there are such things as behaviour chains, but you can quickly see when you're not getting the desired effect and the behaviour is getting worse instead of better due to a chain.  If behaviour chains happened everywhere and always, it would make training almost impossible, as the example above shows.  In reality, you can see when a chain is occurring and you can see the effect of any training:  Something gets worse.  Or it gets better.  I really wish the OP would at least try what I've suggested and then perhaps they can let us know what happens.

And, by the way, the house line would also help with the picking up and running off with things - since you would be able to limit the running-off and practise the 'Leave' as mentioned above.

I'm done with this thread now, because I've explained the approach I would take, clearly.  I'm not being paid for the advice I'm giving, here - I'm doing it because I care about puppies and feel they have so few advocates and are frequently so misunderstood.  It is hard enough to work with people who really want to learn and take onboard what I say; getting them to apply it in the right way is still a challenge.  I probably should just stick to offering advice to owners who consult me:  For one, it pays.  For two, they listen.

I do think there is one thing being overlooked though and that is that dogs learn to 'chain' behaviours together and many will link getting on the sofa to their owner coming with a treat and enticing it off and rewarding.  They are very adept are training us!

Dog walks at heel, we reward.  Are we then rewarding the pulling, which just happened before the walking at heel??  Wow, a lot of training suddenly becomes very difficult.

And how many dogs, collies in particular, learn to run out in front to be called back to have a treat.  A lot of collies can be quite obsessive in their behaviours and spend a lot of their walk 'looping' forward and back simply because they learned that going out ahead and coming back again resulted in a reward.  It does make training hard - that's why different methods are needed for different breeds and situations.

> A lot of collies can be quite obsessive in their behaviours and spend a lot of their walk 'looping' forward and back simply because they learned that going out ahead and coming back again resulted in a reward.  It does make training hard - that's why different methods are needed for different breeds and situations.

And I guess it all depends how you look at it.  The Pastoral breeds are, and always have been, my favourite.  So, for many years I have had Collies in the house, along with my toy breeds.

The Border Collies that I have owned, have exhibited the "loop" that you mention, and have never, ever been given a reward for doing so.  There was me, thinking it was a BC trait, and it has never bothered me.  :-)  I have definitely never thought that they were expecting a treat.  I just thought they were exhibiting normal herding behaviour.  Which is why I have always found another activity to channel their energy.

Yet my 2 Bearded Collies don't "loop."

And my Border Collies have always thought that my word was law!  :-)

The Border Collies that I have owned, have exhibited the "loop" that you mention, and have never, ever been given a reward for doing so.  There was me, thinking it was a BC trait,

I thought it was a herding trait too until I read a book on understanding border collies by Barbara Sykes and then watched the training method at various training clubs.  Intelligent 'thinking' dogs soon work out what gets them a treat/reward and use it to their advantage.

Going back to the original problem..

Puppy on sofa, comfy, secure place (people often over look just how safe and secure a sofa IS for a dog, it smells of people (you put your butt there!), its off the ground, often against a wall with a view of a door.. super safe!)...

Don't approach and get the growl, whatever it is you know will elicit a growl.. don't do - INSTEAD call the puppy before that happens, call from the kitchen, call with a food bowl in your hand, call wtih the leash or the car keys in your hand - whatever it is you know will get you what you want without confrontation.

Whatever it is you use as your bribe (yep, in this instance this is a bribe, though its more an indirect one than waving food under the nose), follow through on your promise, if you lie to your pup they will remember that sooner or later.

That gets you out of the 'emergency situation' without a growl - for the future - don't allow puppy on the sofa when you are not in the room (shut the door), and teach the puppy asap the commands 'up' and 'off' when shes NOT in the mood to settle on the sofa for a snooze (ie, when she is in the mood for a game).

Within a short time you should then have a pup who has NO reason to suspect there will be confrontation over getting off the sofa, and now knows there is a game called 'up' and a game called 'off' and both are rewarding.

For a puppy who takes stuff and runs off with it - DONT CHASE. If you chase, she gets a game - if you chase and panic because she has something expensive/dangerous theres a chance she might (even if you normally swap for stuff) think 'nah, I;m not swapping' and try to swallow what she has, fast - believe me, any dangerous item a dog has in its mouth is TEN times more dangerous if they are trying to swallow it whilst running away, so NEVER chase, even if shes got a carving knife in her mouth.

As she clearly wants attention, the best thing you can do is be very much 'oh.. you have that.. well im off.. g'bye!' and go the OTHER way, ideally with some food or a toy, or again, pick up the keys or the leash or the food bowl, whatever grabs her attention best. The reward in this game comes as much from chasing as anything else, so if you DON'T chase her, the fun wears off, she comes to find you, to see what you have, what you are doing and then if she still has whatever, you can swap, or she will have dropped it in which case distract her with the good thing  you promised.. and go remove the stolen item when she is out of the way.

I'm not being paid for the advice I'm giving, here - I'm doing it because I care about puppies and feel they have so few advocates and are frequently so misunderstood.  It is hard enough to work with people who really want to learn and take onboard what I say; getting them to apply it in the right way is still a challenge.  I probably should just stick to offering advice to owners who consult me:  For one, it pays.  For two, they listen.

No one gets paid for the advice they give here its all given with the hope that something they say is going to help someone.  Unfortunately, you seem to want everyone to accept your way as being the 'right' way and that yours is the only idea worth listening to.  Some people on here have been involved with dogs for years and have considered many ideas, methods, principles etc and come to their own conclusions.  That doesn't make them wrong because they don't agree with your suggestion - just different.

Sorry still not in agreement with most of the advice, in the first place I would not want a pup of mine jumping off the sofa so I would not be calling it. I would walk up, scoop it up, place it on the floor saying off then walk away, I would say in 60+ years I have never had that method not work. I am not saying other ways would not work, dogs are bright enough to know what is and what is not wanted and almost any method that shows the dog what you want would work it depends I suppose on just how much you are prepared to risk the pups legs.

Sorry still not in agreement with most of the advice, in the first place I would not want a pup of mine jumping off the sofa so I would not be calling it. I would walk up, scoop it up, place it on the floor saying off then walk away,

So would I. Best place to start teaching a puppy its place is while it is still a puppy.

Have to agree, no swapping, tempting just pick it up and move it with no hesitation.
When I  got Merlin first day he decided chewing the stair carpet was a good idea, told him no and moved him,
he went straight back and this time growled, got unceremoniously dumped in the garden and left there, came back in and tried again, this time a sharp no did the trick.
He was never the easiest of dogs, but never ever showed any aggression towards people of most other dogs, the odd grumble but he knew it wouldn't work.

> Best place to start teaching a puppy its place is while it is still a puppy.

Sorry, I didn't think training a dog was about teaching it its place.  Dominance-related training is now largely accepted as being completely discredited.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

Personally, I want my dogs to WANT to do what I ask.  Not to do it because they are afraid of me. 

I didn't think training a dog was about teaching it its place

Never heard such nonsense, of course you have to teach a dog where it can and can't go - can't believe yours are allowed to access any area they like never mind the danger.

I don't think Rabid meant 'place' as in places dogs can go, places they can't and to be fair I read your comment about dogs knowing their place the same way Rabid did, and I think you are purposely mis-reading for the sake of an argument.

Rabid, I fully agree - I can also highly recommend use of the 'ignore' function for the sake of your sanity.

Actually no I was not misreading Rabid's post because I did not even use the word place in my post except in the statement (in the first place), that apart how would you get a puppy off a chair or down stairs without picking it up?

I can get my adult sizedGerman Shepherd down the stairs.. and I certainly can't pick him up! It is easy, you convince them (through having treats, toys, exciting voice etc) to move by themselves!

Exactly the same way that you'd train any other behaviour, lure the dog into performing said behaviour, and then reward for performing it! :)

> that apart how would you get a puppy off a chair or down stairs without picking it up?

I don't think the argument is that one should never pick up or carry a dog but rather that you might want to choose other ways to manage the situation when confronted with a grumbly pup who is resisting being woken up or doesn't want to move from its comfy spot.

>Rabid, I fully agree - I can also highly recommend use of the 'ignore' function for the sake of your sanity.

Like!

Your pup should not be allow up stairs or to jump up on things in the first place, but the unexpected happens and if you can pick them up the safest and best way if they have jumped onto something much taller than themselves, pick them up and move them, answer to the OP. Training apart this is the only safe way. It is in no way confrontational. And I have never known it cause a problem.

BTY dogs do have to know where they stand it is the only way they can relax in their home environment, it is what is natural to them, I am not suggesting that you have to beat them up or set up confrontations to do this just that clickers are not always the answer.

To train a dog they need to know what it is you are wanting and then obey either because they want to, or because they know what you ask is what they must do. Now some breeds of dogs want to please you others want to please themselves.

How you train this wanted behaviour is to some extent dependent on what you consider right and are able to deal with, the same applies to unwanted behaviour but that can be even more difficult particularly with a reward system because you can't always wait for the required result in order to reinforce it.

If you are training a 'sit' no problem you just wait for the sit and then reward the action but there are times when this is not possible for example if your youngster runs into a children's play area you don't stand there clicker and treat in hand you damned well go and collect the dog apologising as you go.

So yes, I am all for using positive methods of training but you have to use some common sense and calling a pup or dog down from an area that is too high for them to safely jump from is not good common sense.

To me the issue here is not the pup being somewhere it shouldn't be, it's how it reacted to be told to move or moved.
Growling may seem fun or not a prblem in a pup, but get an adult dog and you have a major problem.
Same as when a pup jumps up at you for a fuss, aww cute, when it grows up it's not so, stop it early and you won't have the problem.
All my dogs have been allowed on the furniture, that's why I paid a fortune for leather, but without exception the simple word "OFF" meant they did just that and I never used reward or clickers, well I did but that came in the form or praise and a fuss.
Treats were just that something given to them because I loved them

Ingrid, I have always treated a puppy growling as their way of registering what they desire but in my home what I desire is paramount so there is no question if I wish to pick a pup up then I do, I ignore any growling and it only takes a few occasions for the pup to realise the growling gets it no where and will try something else, if that something else is acceptable then you reward, either praise or treat.

Jumping up, if you don't want this behaviour then never allow it, not ever, even when the pup is 8 weeks old, and how do you stop it, well I turn my back and walk away, call the pup to you and tell it to sit, then you reward. But never ask the pup to do something it is has not learned you are setting it up to fail.

I would like to answer Theemix and Rabid as they both seem to feel that Nova made the comment 'about teaching a puppy its place .....'

Actually, it was me who made that comment first and it was in response to the post by Nova as shown below.

Nova said:

Sorry still not in agreement with most of the advice, in the first place I would not want a pup of mine jumping off the sofa so I would not be calling it. I would walk up, scoop it up, place it on the floor saying off then walk away,

To which I replied:

'So would I. Best place to start teaching a puppy its place is while it is still a puppy'.

Quite clearly Nova and I WERE talking about ' place' meaning location ie the difference between sofa and floor and it was in fact Rabid who completely mis-understood what we meant and took  my comment to mean something entirely different as this post by Rabid shows:

> Best place to start teaching a puppy its place is while it is still a puppy.

Sorry, I didn't think training a dog was about teaching it its place.  Dominance-related training is now largely accepted as being completely discredited.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.p

Personally, I want my dogs to WANT to do what I ask.  Not to do it because they are afraid of me. 

Well, my comment had nothing to do with Dominance-related training, it was never mentioned either overtly or covertly so why on earth Theemix made the following comment is bewildering as she is clearly incorrect in saying:

'I don't think Rabid meant 'place' as in places dogs can go, places they can't and to be fair I read your comment about dogs knowing their place the same way Rabid did, and I think you are purposely mis-reading for the sake of an argument.'

'Rabid, I fully agree - I can also highly recommend use of the 'ignore' function for the sake of your sanity'.

What is ironic is the last sentence Theemix wrote -  how dominant and dictatorial is that?  They get the wrong end of the stick over what is said, blame the wrong person for saying it , accuse others of purposely mis-reading for the sake of an argument and threaten punishment of the Ignore button feature. The only ones mis-reading or mis-understanding the context of what was said was them!

 
The whole point of this thread was that someone's puppy was settling to rest in an 'inappropriate' place and the pup objected when removed.  If you take theemix and rabid's way of dealing with the growling puppy you may cure the growling but it will do nothing to stop the pup jumping up and resting in 'inappropriate' places.  After all, jumping up gets rewarded several times over using their method - by positive attention from the owner, with games of jumping 'up'  and 'off'  to teach the pup  what those words mean, and with food rewards.
 
However, by scooping up a pup and placing it on the floor without anything being said the experience is not rewarding for the pup and chances are it won't bother doing it again.  After all, first it isn't allowed to settle, there are no fun and games, there's little interaction with the owner, no titbits, nothing.  Neither is it anythign to do with 'dominance-related training'.

Isn't that what the OP wants? 

Of course you can get GSDs to come downstairs without a fuss with similar training but will that stop the GSD ever going upstairs?  I doubt it, as again the behaviour of going up and down is made a game with rewards and positive interaction. 

Dogs have to learn there are places so inappropriate they shouldn't ever go and pups jumping onto furniture if the owner doesn't want that is one of them.  Why encourage it with games of jumping up and down?  Sure it will get the pup to come off but will it stop the pup getting on ?  Isn't that confusing the pup?  Aren't owners always told if you don't want your fully-grown adult dog jumping on furniture then don't allow it in the first place?

Of course training should be done positively but like Nova said in her latest post, sometimes it doesn't work and in a situation like this is at best counter-productive.