Hopefully this will spark a healthy debate from the CD breeders with years of experience because i'm genuinely interested in hearing what you've got to say.
Which do you consider to be the lesser of these evils, and why?

Please try to give factual and educational answers and leave emotions and "drama" to one side. lol

Thanks

Why don't you start us off with your opinions? :)

At this stage i don't really have an opinion one way or the other about which is right, wrong, or occasionally justifiable. They've all got pros and cons and i'm currently researching this topic (and genetics) quite intensely.

>Which do you consider to be the lesser of these evils, and why?

And why are they evils?

Perhaps you'd like to share some of your research for us to discuss??

There is no black and white answer because everything depends on the dogs involved. What they carry that is either good or bad. You could have a closely inbred litter being much healthier than a total outcross, or vice versa, depending on what is in the lines. Which is why we don't like to breed by numbers but by using our knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree.

I will read this with interest, still trying to get my head around all of these concepts :)

>Which do you consider to be the lesser of these evils, and why?

Unless you're crossing two different breeds, the three systems you refer to in the heading are the only methods of breeding - why do you call them 'evils'?

Outcrossing is mating two (as far as possible) unrelated dogs of the same breed; line-breeding is mating two fairly distantly related dogs of the same breed; in-breeding is mating two closely-related dogs of the same breed. There is no fourth option.

I think it also depends on the breed and genetic variety/illnesses in the breed...
I can honestly say in my breed nobody can get away linebreeding/inbreeding for very long without being hit by one(or more) of the inherited illnesses, well in 20 years I am yet to know anybody who has successfully done so!
But then my breed was hit by the wars and only 8 or so dogs remained and are the new beginning of the breed and were bred very closely for quite a few years...

There is no black and white answer because everything depends on the dogs involved. What they carry that is either good or bad. You could have a closely inbred litter being much healthier than a total outcross, or vice versa, depending on what is in the lines. Which is why we don't like to breed by numbers but by using our knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree.

I couldn't agree more.  To me good breeding is about KNOWING the dogs on the pedigree.  Breeders are dealing with living animals not numbers.  Close breeding alone doesn't produce problems, it only amplifies what's already there, so can be a very useful tool if there are no serious problems.

To me, outcrossing where the dogs are not known to the breeder is a much more dangerous can of worms!  You can have dogs that are not related but carry the same problems and if the breeder doesn't know enough about each of the dogs, then the pups produced could have many more problems.

So I think that each method of breeding has it's merits but the bottom line is that the breeder should know as much as possible about as many dogs as possible on the pedigree.

Before I started breeding I thought there was only 2 options, mate unrelated dogs[good] mate very closely related dogs [bad] then I learnt that there was linebreeding[between the previous 2 options] and with help of a mentor have been helped to pick the right studs for my girls as they had over 20yrs knowledge of the breed and the various lines bred by the serious ethical breeders and what could work, no guarantee, and what to stay away from.

My breed was hit hard when the trial results for DNA testing for PRA cord1 was announced in Feb 2005 because there were so many affected dogs and few clear results, some kennels threw in the towel, others retired their affected dogs[later when everyone realised that affected dogs can still be included provided the mate was clear it was too late for those dogs who had been neutered] and waited to buy in clear or carriers, relying on stud owners to let them use their clear males on their their carrier bitches, there were long waiting lists for bitch pups in particular,even those who had been in the breed for years having to wait 2yrs or more and then accept a carrier. I got my first male dachsie in 2004, when he was 6 months old I started looking for a suitable bitch, he was nearly 2.5yrs old before a small time breeder trusted me enough to get one of her PRA clear bitches and became my mentor and introduced me to many show/ breeders.

Many pedigrees have the top studs of the day on them, these dogs took part in the trials back in the 90's, one turned out to be PRA clear but his top stud son was a carrier, they had passed on to the Rainbow Bridge before the testing was rolled out for general use, so there was alot of very close breeding going on to build up the gene pool, now we can't register fathers and daughter or mothers and sons pairings.

When researching pedigrees you have to rely on everyone being honest about any problems in their lines, unfortunately not everyone is and it is hard to find out what happened to the pups sold as pets and therefore not shown or bred from as they may be hiding some hereditary problem.

So which ever option you choose, linebreeding or out crossing you need to do your homework and even then things can go awry.

and of course it isn't either or, when breeding one often uses all three systems. 

If you have bred close in one generation you would go out in the next all depending on the results.

Wise breeders often do a close breeding such as half sibling on any new blood brought in to see if anything unwanted turns up, before the new blood has been incorporated too far to move away from.

Breeding out all the time is a bit like sticking your head in the sand, you may not get problems, but you may be disseminating them into the gene pool unknowing, and when two individuals with the same ancestors come together a problem may be produced, even if they both have the common ancestor a fair way back.

Barbara are half sibling matings allowed by the KC? Is it only parents to offspring that are not allowed?

Not that I have half siblings now but may have farther down the line.

Half-siblings are allowed; it's only parent/offspring and full-sibling matings that aren't.

Thanks JG,another bit of info to store in the little grey cells.

Would imagine the ability to use half sibling would be important if trying to fix or retain a desired feature mind you not to be used as a regular policy. Would think the risk of producing the unwanted in half sibling would be less than in outcrossing but that decisions on pairing should be made with care by the well informed or the help of the well informed.

but that decisions on pairing should be made with care by the well informed or the help of the well informed.

Wel informed seems to be the bit that's disappeared today!

When I got involved with my breed 30 years ago there were a number of 'old' breeders who still attended shows and were very happy to help anyone that they could see had a serious interest in the breed and not just breeding......  These people who had kept a large kennel of dogs for many years and knew the ins and outs of every dog they had every owned and bred and most exhibitors were still going to these 'real breeders' to buy their next puppy to show and very few 'little people' were actually breeding their own.

Now things have changed and anyone who owns a bitch seems to want to breed without taking the time, and golly it can take many years, to learn about what's behind their own bitch let alone other lines.

I rarely got to shows now but recently when 2 newish (perhaps 10 years each?) came and proudly showed me photos of their latest litters, and I said "Did you think about *****?" mentioning known (certainly to me!) problems behind those lines, they didn't know what I was talking about.

Times change and not always for the better. :(

In my breed there has been a completely outcrossed litter which produced 3 white puppies (not a breed standard colour). It shows how important it is to know what is behind the lines we bring in from abroad and how we use them.

> Now things have changed and anyone who owns a bitch seems to want to breed without taking the time, and golly it can take many years, to learn about what's behind their own bitch let alone other lines

I totally agree with that!

I have been showing for 8 years and haven't even thought about breeding yet! But there are so many people who have started out around the same time as me (or even well after) and have bred umpteen litters. I can only assume it was for the money as I don't see how they can know enough about the lines to produce something outstanding, because they haven't.

My mentor has only bred 3 litters in my 8 years of knowing her and was Ourdogs top breeder 2010 2011 and in the past (1994 onwards) for the breeds annual awards has had dam of merit spread out over a period of 15 years with monther, daughter, grandaughter & 2 greatgrandaughters and that is not from have loads of litters, just the odd litter with numerous top winners, that comes from years of understanding of the lines and knowing not just what the dog infront of you will produce but whats behind there can produce & come through.

ETA - and has also steered clear of health issues and hopefully when more info is available we hope to be clear of the latest issue

I'm no expert, but in my opinion, close inbreeding isn't a good idea, though a really knowledgable breeder, who has known most of the dogs involved in the pedigrees for 5 or 6 generations back, can get away with it. Outcrossing is ok for beginners but it increases the 'pot luck' aspect of different characteristics appearing in the puppies. Again, a knowledgable breeder will know when outcrossing is a good idea to increase the genetic diversity in their line. I think the majority of the top breeders will line breed - again, these people have usually owned or bred most of the dogs in the pedigree, so they know what is behind the dog or dogs that they are line breeding to, so they can fix type without doubling up on unwanted things. :-)