When i got my girl as a pup who is now 10 months, i made sure to tak her out places and use to sit outside tesco with her to get her use to people and she loved everyone and would happerly go up to any stranger to demarnd they say hello to her. Well at 6 months she got kennel cough and we had to keep her in for a week and when she was allowed out she was nevours of strangers. I was hoping that she would snap out of it after a while of being out and about but sadly a few weeks later she got parvo (was was vacinated but they didnt work) so she had to be kept in for about 2 and a half months while she recovered, stopped shedding the virus and re-vacinated and blood tested. She has only been awllowed out for about 2 weeks and she is worse than befor (compleatly unstandable).
I decided to take her to tesco again like i did when she was a pup and she shakes and trys to run away and wont sit still or clam down. When we meet people she knows she is perfectly fine, and fine with other dogs. But when we meet a stranger she will normaly try to sneak up to sniff them and then try to run away, if they give her any attention she trys to run away and runs back and forth trying to drag me away or hides behinde me. A few people she has barked at when they didnt go away (she only barks when someting spooks her) like when i was talking to someone she didnt know. Some people she will imedatly like but most often she is afraid. Ive tryed to get a few people to offer her a treat (she normaly loves food) but she either wont take it or will eventualy edge closer cowering and take it and run. People must think she is beaten or something.

We dont normaly get visotors to our house as we dont live near family and i only have 1 friend who i see reagluary, she comes over and my girl loves her. I do take her to ringcraft class once a week so i was thinking of asking people there to either go over her or just say hello (depending on how she reacts) as they wont be compleat strangers but she wont know them well, and was also thinking about taking her to town every day or every other day and just walk her about. Also going to take treats with me on her walks and ask the regular people we meet to offer her one as they wont be strangers.

So wondering if anyone on here could offer me any advice on what to try with her? and how to handle her when she panicks?

I would definitely consult a behaviourist - preferably one who knows how to use BAT.

You need to take this slower. For a dog that is scared of strangers, even offered food by hand is often too much. Absolutely do NOT let anyone touch her until she is happy. To start with you can offer treats when she looks at a stranger, even if it is at a distance. Eventually get people to drop food on the ground nearby (without making eye contact), so she doesn't have to walk up to them or touch their hands. Let her dictate the pace. Then continue in that way.

If you take her in to town etc, be careful because you COULD make it worse, depending on what she is like. If the mere presence of strangers is worrying to her,you need to start out in areas with few people and gradually increase it. (Look at it this way-if you were scared of snakes, what would make you feel least bothered: being forced to walk amongst hundreds of them, or in the general area, at a safe distance, as just one or two?) Keep offering treats and praise when she looks at anyone without reacting. If she won't take treats,you know she is too uncomfortable. Very important as well: when she gets scared LET her hide behind you, or walk away. Don't force any interactions.

Agree with goldmali, initially you want her to be comfortable with just people,around and then explain to people she is afraid and that they should not look at her or try to interact but just chat with you.

When I was fostering some unsocialised dogs I took them to the shopping centre with mine and they were able to stand back and watch mine enjoying the interaction with people (I explained about ignoring her unless she came up to them herself).

Do you have another dog who is people sociable so they can take the attention off her until she feels ready to cope.

Thank you for the suggestions. My friend has offered to bring some of her dogs down so we can walk them. We went to a show today and she was walking around quite happerly after a little while (she was unsure at first) and was sniffing people when they wernt looking and even jumped up to see someone!

So a case of seeing how she reacts and take it at her pace.

Oh dear,poor both of you!My Jess was exactly the same after being spayed-like you,Id made sure she was well socialised.I wouldnt believe the nurse when she told me Jess had snapped at her,as she had always been a softy with people -till I saw her behaviour at the next days checkup! It escalated to the point when a friend tried to push the point(foolishly as the dog had clearly said"go away!"by hiding
behind my legs)she actually snapped.There was one guy in particular she was terrified of,would pull like crazy to avoid him,and sods law,we were always coming across him on our walks!
What helped Jess was continuing with our training classes and having to join in"controlled greeting".Im sure this is what helped.(big circle of dogs and handlers,handler and dogs take turns in "visiting"and being visited,depending on how advanced they are,the "greeted"dog gets a treat from the person doing the greeting,if its bum stays firmly on the floor,she got to love that,knowing what was coming! So I think,if your class doesnt do similar,your idea of asking people to give your girl a treat is a good option.
2years on,I no longer have to worry about her,though of course Im always careful,I think general walking, and experience helped her along,too.(mind you,the vets is a different matter,not had to put that to the test for a while!)  I do wish you well.

Back to basics, start with qieter plases and built up gradualy, as you would do with a baby pup. at start dont have strangers petting her, let your dog buid up in confidence and she will eventually want to 'investigate' the people. even going to class and just sitting watching for a few weeks before you get involved. good luck

Just a thought (I can't help with the behavioural side as I've no experience!) but a friend of a friend's puppy was very jumpy (and very cute) so people kept approaching her and then letting them jump all over her, "Oh dogs love me, it's fine etc etc etc" so in the end she resorted to getting a t-shirt printed saying "In Training! Do not pet if I jump up!" on it. She would wear it when off lead and likely to be jumping up on people (as on a lead she was more controlled.)

Maybe something like this would help people understand and leave her be?

I watched Patricia McConnell help a little CS who was frightened of strangers at a seminar last year. She used the method of strangers tossing her treats that's already been mentioned.
She got half a dozen people up to help, all stood out of the dogs "danger zone" approached a few steps tossed the treat, then retreated immediately, absolutely no eye contact. Even in the short time of the exercise, the dog showed great improvement, and even started to take a few steps towards approaching strangers. Tricia did emphasise that the exercise needed to be carried out in numerous locations and would take months for the behaviour to disappear.

thank you, i just got tofind people to help out then, the only obedance class isthe same night as ringcraft so that is out as i think she would be better at ringcraft as she knows the place.
The teashirt is a good idea but i think my girl would proberly eat it lol

Ill be taking her to town tonight to see how she does just wlaking about with lots of treats. I was going to go thismorning but had an emergancy with one of my budgies, also going at arouind 5.30 there will be less peopel so wont be as scairy. Ringcraft tomorrow, thinking about it last week she jumped up at a new person, then sort of realised what she had done then got down and moved away.

I think you need to put yourself in the dogs shoes.
If you find a situation stressful, going over and over and over the same scenario and set ups, would make me dread the whole experience more every time.

With the kind of 'behaviour altering' type training, which makes the dog look forward (without dread) to an experience, you get success much quicker.

Like all types of therapy, someone has claimed it and named it but it has been around for ever. Common sense tells us that when desentisation isnt going to work and another tack is needed, letting the dog know that the set up it hates so much isnt going to be foisted on him ad nauseum.

Dog meets people - sees them approaching - shows stress signs - get dogs attention (happy voice) and turn them away with a click or a sign..thereby removing the stress.
No rubbing their proverbial nose in a difficult situation.
Next time - dog sees people - perhaps less stress or closer - then shows stress - turn away - give click and reward which may just be happy voice and no stranger contact.

If you do this often enough and with consistency the dog will realise that he is not FORCED to meet strangers and the heat is off. You may find he will take the lead and want to sniff...do this with your eyes peeled for stress/ back off/ and turn the dog away - click and happy voice.

It works, always has and I used it 30 odd years ago on a show bitch who had been sat on a bench out side a supermarket on and off for weeks to desensitise to no avail.

The draw back of going into town to desensitize her is that it's out of your control, you can't predict what people may do, ie, someone coming upon you unaware s and making contact with her, that could set her back hugely, or even a rowdy group of teens. So you really need to keep your eyes and ears peeled and get her out of any situations pdq.
Good luck, hope it goes well :-)

You need to give your girl some space, take things slowly. If you force her into situations she feels uncomfortable she will not be able to trust you, will not feel safe and the situation will become even more stressful for her. Be kind to her and let her set her own pace. Let her know you will look after her, reward all positive responses and if a situation is too much for her, remove her from it straight away. Taking her to shows/town can force her to confront her fear and allow her no opportunity to escape. Personally, I think situations like this should be avoided until she is comfortable in lower stress situations.

Let her know you will protect her so she can relax. If anyone tries to say hello to her tell them to leave her (even if you have to be rude... sometimes you will because some people think they know better than you). If dogs make her nervous send them away, if their owners will approach, send them away. Walk away from strangers if she is unhappy. Never make her confront a situation that is too much for her. She will learn to trust that you will not force her into something she isn't happy with and manage to relax. Once she is relaxed and trusts you more reward her for positive responses towards strangers (dogs or people), but still don't let them near. Eventually move on to people dropping food for her (never making eye contact, speaking to or touching her) and walking away or ignoring her. She might sniff them and return to you, but don't push for more. This stage will be hard and will take time and patience. When she is comfortable enough to move on and take food from people, let her. No matter what stage you are at though, always be prepared to walk away if she is uncomfortable. She might find strangers in an enclosed space difficult, it is harder to get away. As with all the other steps, be kind and patient and leave if things are too much for her. Letting her know she never has to confront something she is scared of will reduce her stress.

It works, I have the happy dog under my desk as a I type to prove it. Like your pup, my girl was ill and not allowed out for a long time. Now she likes most people and dogs, but those she doesn't like are ignored because she knows we can just walk away if they bother us. I am still careful, but that is just to make sure she stays happy. Thinking about it the last time she got worried and felt she had to react (barking and hiding behind me) about someone was over 2 years ago now and we had just lost our oldie who had been her mother figure from the day we brought her home. They had been very close.

What is being described here - the dog learning to feel in control of approaching others and things being taken at the dog's own pace, the dog not being forced into situations etc - is the keystone of BAT and would be really very helpful for this dog.  Please do get help from a qualified behaviourist who can use BAT - if that's unaffordable, then you might want to buy Grisha Stewart's book on BAT and try to learn about it yourself.

I think you call that enabling. I have just had to buy that book to have a look at it; though I suspect your reply was meant for the OP not myself. I'm sure there is still something I can learn from it. It has some positive reviews.

ok thank you, im looking at his site now. Im defernatly not going to force her and drag her up to peopel, posible on wensday we may go for a walk with my frends pack, see if she feels more confident when she is with other dogs. That is if im not hurting too much from haveing my wisdom tooth out.

We passed two nabours on our way back from our walk, She was on her extendable lead and the first person she went up to sniffed and moved away then walked around her then when to go back to them bu changed hr mind, then got destracted by another dog then as she left quickly sniffed her. The second person she sniffed moved away then watched then followed then moved away. I filmed her so will have to upload it.

Heres the vedio of her meeting the nabour. We use to walk with him and a lab he walks befor she got sick but we seem to be missing all the dogs we use to meet for some reason. So this was her first time seeing him in person since. He was asking me how she was and her lead is very long so she had the choice weather to go see him or not. I had run out of treats by then so i gave her a fuss after we left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6LlDF1N_5g

What a lovely pair of bloomers, cute girl, not too bad reactions at all

i love her fluffey trousers too. she was a bit more jumpy with the first nabour (actualy the wife of the guy in the video) but she said hello to her when she sniffed her and fay hasnt seen her as much as the guy, as the guy didnt pay her much attention to her at all as he was busy i defernatly think that helped. We did also see a couple walking a young dog (looked kinda like a tebitan terrier puppy but was way to big to be that breed) but she saw them comming and didnt want to see them (she veared towards the pavement as we were walking down the middle of the road) so we took the pavement and didnt say hello to them and she just looked at them.

She has had some unpleasant experiences with the illness, vet visits etc, so taking at her pace and ignoring worry with jolly hockey positive vibes from you she will come along steadily.  Natural Spitz and puppy curiosity will win through.

thank you barbra. We met the guy again today on our walk and he had the lab he wlaks so as we use to we joined them. I saw them first so left her off her lead (its a fenced in field) then she saw the lab and quickly trotted over but the lab didnt see her and walked behind some long grass so she stopped to sniff the floor then look at me who was catching up, then saw the lab again and went over to give kisses. She followed her around the whole time as normal and at the end of the walk i gave the guy a treat to offer her but fay and just stolen the labs ball and doing her 'my ball u cant have it' rutien so was not intrested in treats. She didnt pay him any attention the whole time but didnt seem to be nevours when he was near her either.

The one good thing is she likes the vets.

Went to ringcraft last night and she did fanstasticly. when we went in there was an lady with a siba inu that i she had met once in town about 6 months ago and she played with her dog then went to sniff her, took a treat off her and didnt seem bothered and went back to playing with her dog. When a couple she met last week there came in she had a little panic and tryed to run away and hid behind me but eventualy decided to go up to the and had a qucik sniff and ran back to me. Then later on she decided to go say hello and had a treat form both of them and even put her paws on the ladys lap to sniff the toy she had. She also decided to get and say hello to another owner that she hadent seen for about 3months but by that time i had run out of treats so i just told her how good she was. She was fine on the table with the two normal people who do it. I decided not to push it and ask any of the owners to go over her on the table as she did so good saying hello to every one i wanted to leave her on a high. Dont get me wrong she did look slikghtly unsure but she chose to see everyone herself. Im asuming its becase she was in a place she know well she felt more confotable.

We wont be able to go to class next week as she came into season at class, ive be suspecting it was comming and have been told that can make bitches go a bit funny so hopefully her suddently getting worse could be partulay linked to that as well as her isolation.

Has she had her first season yet?  I have found with my girls who are normally bomb proof out and about that when they were coming up to their first season they suddenly went through a fear stage but nothing had happened to cause it.

My newest girl who was 10 months old when I got her, hadn't been socialised etc., returned to her breeder at 8 months old when her owner was down sizing, she has had her second season with me and hasn't had the relapse in her social skills which I have worked really hard with her on, the conclusion I have come to is the hormones for the first season affect them not just in the reproduction dept.

Please do get help from a qualified behaviourist who can use BAT -

IS there even a single one in the UK? Didn't think there was.

Yes, there are lots of behaviourists in the UK who use BAT.

Grisha is also running a course very soon in the UK which will result in a certified BAT practitioner, so there will soon be a list of folk who have done her BAT training in the UK. 

Until then, though, you can still find a behaviourist with experience of BAT.  Grisha has done a couple of v good seminars here already, sold out, so many behaviourists have attended and have knowledge of BAT.

> Until then, though, you can still find a behaviourist with experience of BAT.  Grisha has done a couple of v good seminars here already, sold out, so many behaviourists have attended and have knowledge of BAT.

I was hoping someone would explain what BAT is, as I have visions of cricket bats and balls going through my head ;).

Barbara I am glad you asked, I didn't want to show my ignorance as everyone else seem to know what BAT stood for, it was a new one on me.

I know Grisha Stewart is doing seminars here, I keep saving the details of the next one in the hope that I might be able to afford to go as I'd love to, but I've never heard of anyone actually offering the type of training here. Googling brings me nothing.

He he, me too, was hoping someone would say so I wouldn't show my ignorance.

It stands for Behaviour Adjustment Training: http://functionalrewards.com/

It stands for Behaviour Adjustment Training.  Basically it gives the dog some control over the situation.  You put the dog in a challenging situation but keep it below threshold.  If you see a behaviour you like then you reward it by letting the dog move further away from the situation (or towards it, if that's rewarding to it).  The dog then learns that if it behaves in a way you like, then it can control the situation.

Of course excellent observation and timing are essential - as well as plenty of time.  But it seems to be extremely effective if done well - esp. for fear-aggressive dogs.

I'm going to a lecture by Grisha in the autumn so will be interested to learn more.

>I was hoping someone would explain what BAT is, as I have visions of cricket bats and balls going through my head .

Does not involve cricket bats! 

Have a look at the website for more info:  functionalrewards.com

Essentially, and in a crudely simplfied nutshell:

1)  approach scary thing.
2)  stop approaching as soon as dog even notices scary thing (or earlier if dog is not looking, it is best to err on the side of starting further away than you need)
3)  wait for dog to offer any behaviour which isn't barking and lunging - this is hopefully a cut-off signal (scratching, lip-lick, blinking, looking aside and disconnecting from the scary thing)
4)  mark the alternative behaviour with a verbal marker ("yes!") and retreat from scary thing a good distance
5)  Keep repeating & you will be able to get closer to the scary thing, progressively.

The retreat from the scary thing rewards the dog for the alternative behaviour.  So the dog is more likely to offer the alternative instead of being aggressive.  As the dog learns that it is in control, and can dictate when the retreat happens, so the need to be aggressive decreases - because the dog can control proximity to the scary thing and no longer needs to be aggressive to gain it.

Although I've written here about aggression, it works just the same for fear without aggression - since the cause of most aggression is fear.

>I know Grisha Stewart is doing seminars here, I keep saving the details of the next one in the hope that I might be able to afford to go as I'd love to, but I've never heard of anyone actually offering the type of training here. Googling brings me nothing.

It is best to contact an APBC behaviourist and ask them if they've been to Grisha's seminar and offer BAT.

Or you could join the BAT Yahoo group and ask if anyone there can recommend someone in the UK.

Has she had her first season yet?

This is her first one. Which now means ring crafft is out for a few weeks. I said to my friend months ago that i bet once she was allowed out again she would come into season just to be a pain lol

You should start by letting her meet a few new people. Do not bring her to town where strangers can be numerous. Take it one day at a time. If she responds well, then gradually increase the number of people until her reactions become positive.

She met 2 new people the other day and did well. She had a vet appoitment and i was told the one she has seen the most was working that day but she wasnt and it was a vet and nurse ive never seen befor. We went in the room and she wanted to go see the male nurse but kept changing her mind and running away. Put her on the table and she was ok with sniffing him and was ok with him holding her. She was nervous but not panicking or trying to get away. So she had the nurse and me holding her and she was fine with the vet lifting her head up (she was in for a blood test) but when the vet touched her neck she realised what was about to happen (this is her 3 one now) and did put up a bit of a struggle but as soon as the needle was in she was fine and after it was done she stood on the table while we chatted and i held tissue on her neck looking sorry for herslef for getting a needle. Then she got a nice cows ear.

Were not meeting peopel on our walks at the moment as im taking her out later and only on the road due to her being in season.

Deficiency of proper socialization as a puppy is another reason many dogs afraid of strangers. Dogs that haven't had a chance to see a wide variety of people as puppies are more likely to develop a fear of people they don't know. If a dog is pushed too far out of his comfort action and not allowed to get away, he might also resort to biting to escape. While dogs do enjoy being around people, some are shy or fearful of people. That type of conduct is due to many things including breed characteristics, abuse and temperament.

This is certainly not the case with this puppy though, it was a well socialised puppy until it caught parvo at 4 months old.

nope she use to love people befor, she went a bit unsure after a week quariteen with kennel cough then about a month after that she go the parvo at about 6month (not much luck i know) then went like she is now. When i first got her i carried her thruogh town and use to sit outside tesco with her all the time and she loved everyone i was haveing to walk around people so she didnt trip them up.

Due to her being in season she hasnt been going to class or out and about like normal, but when we went ot look at a new car we took her along and she barked at the man when she first saw him (she wasnt impressed when he looked in mums car) but when we followed him inside she sniffed him and she was fine when we were sat talking and she seemed ok when we were following him him around the show room, she was walking behind him and infrount of me. A friend poped by the house this morning and she ran about barking at her but once we went outside she did sniff her hand then run about some more and when we all got in the car she had another sniff then ignored her (friend was in the frount and her in the back). Weve taken her to my dads twice and one of the times a carer came in his room, she wasnt happy about it and kept going to go up to her then running and hiding under my chair, but didnt bark at her. Picked up my car form the garage last night and took her for the ride and she saw the machinics but didnt want to say hello untill one walked away then she ran up behind him and had a sniff then ran away again. Dont think there is anything else to update since my last post. Will be going back to ringcraft class on tuesday.

Essentially, and in a crudely simplfied nutshell:

1)  approach scary thing.
2)  stop approaching as soon as dog even notices scary thing (or earlier if dog is not looking, it is best to err on the side of starting further away than you need)
3)  wait for dog to offer any behaviour which isn't barking and lunging - this is hopefully a cut-off signal (scratching, lip-lick, blinking, looking aside and disconnecting from the scary thing)
4)  mark the alternative behaviour with a verbal marker ("yes!") and retreat from scary thing a good distance
5)  Keep repeating & you will be able to get closer to the scary thing, progressively.

The retreat from the scary thing rewards the dog for the alternative behaviour.  So the dog is more likely to offer the alternative instead of being aggressive.

I have a question about this approach which is, as someone else has said, an old concept given a new name and with a twist.  It is the twist that confuses me.

Displacement behaviours are what a dog does when it is stressed by something to relieve its own stress and give it some distance form the trigger causing stress.  DBs in dogs are said to be scratching themselves, sniffing the ground, turning attention elsewhere. 

Calming Signals are intended to  communicate something to the other dog or person and are used pro-actively to prevent poor relationships with others or to calm an already tense situation.

Your list above contains both Displacement behaviours and Calming Signals  (some are interchangeable).

If a dog is offering DBs then I can see that you should remove your dog from the stressful situation and retreat just as you would with Desensitisation. But if your dog was offering Calming Signals to others then you should not turn your dog away as it is communicating something vital to the other parties involved in the meeting and a handler would be  interferring with  that and  frustrating the objective of a 'calm' positive meeting.

Does BAT give a 'definitive' list of which are Displacement Behaviours and which are Calming Signals and what criteria is used for the BAT classification ?

Thanks



 

took her to town today as had to whip a friend to argos. she did much better, she was shaking on and off but not as much just her back legs a bit. When we were just standing outsidethe shop she calmed down a bit and most of the people who went past she aproached behinde to try to sniff them. She only backed away and hid from a man in wellys and a group of tenage boys who were a bit loud

so much better than last time she went.

Glad you had some more success and that she is gaining some confidence if she approaches other people from behind (not as scary as face to face). 

Whatever method you choose, go slowly and remove her from the situation if she shows signs of any stress, even the lowest level.  Take note of those she really doesn't like ( those wearing wellies) and give them a wider berth next time.  Or go to places at quieter times not the busy ones. The more successes she has the more likely she'll feel able to cope. 

Hi,

sorry to butt in, but learning that scratching is an example of DB is v usefull info to me in understanding why  my new 6 yr bitch  will not  pee on garden grass and always just sits and has a good scratch. We'll get there!

Kathy  

Kathy

James O'Heare and Turid Ruugas give lists of which behaviours fall into which category if that helps you to identify what your dog may be doing.

Had a minni break through this week!

Ringcraft on tuesday went well (but i got told off for moving her too fast lol) with out any encouragment from me she approached people and 3 of them stroked her and she was fine! As she was doing well i asked if one of the owners could go over her on the table. She did lean back but didnt try to get away and got a lot of praise for it.
Then yesterday on our walk we met 2 strangers with a mini dachshund, the dogs met and were fine so i let her off her lead again and we were chatting and at one point fay was standing next to the female owner and she leaned down and gave are a stroke and fay actualy jumped up to sniff her! The then tryed to follow there dog home untill i threw her ball lol

Great!Having similar problems of my own,I know what its like and sounds like Fay is getting over it,well done!

Seen Fay's piccies on Facebook and her success at WKC, well done both.

Thank you, she did realy well and im so proud of her. Befor she went in the ring she let a bunch of strangers storke her and she was allmost tripping people over to sniff them didnt back away fomr anyone and wasnt shaking at all. i showed her teeth to the judge, she did back away on the table at first. She didnt like the tall male stuewerd and gave him a bark when he gave us her card. But after he moved behind us and shouted the next class which realy spoked her so i took her away form the ring to settle down. We also both jumped at the judge in the best puppy class as i was too busy wathcing fay standing i didnt notice she had came over with a rosette lol, as fay backed away the judge nelt down and held her hand out for her. She was realy good with her and kept telling her she was a good girl when she was on the table.

Think ill have to do more work on men with her.