R£PCA have hired an e-communications officer to post on all the pet forums, as a marketing tool partly and I suspect to drum up more signatures for the Born To Suffer Campaign as they have been circulating a petition which to date has 16,000 signatures. They plan to hand this into the KC to get them to change all the breed standards.

What a job to get spending all day on Internet forums !!

They are going to have to be dog savy to get any positive responses I would have thought.

Couldn't they think up anything better !

It's not that long ago that the breed standards got rehashed so they aren't likely to get much response from the KC.

Who has signed the petition, general public, anti pedigree dogs brigade or the breeders who are working to improve their breeds?

> It's not that long ago that the breed standards got rehashed so they aren't likely to get much response from the KC.

It's not that recent and I would hope that they constantly review them regarding any welfare issues.
I don't have any issue with outside agencies reminding the KC of the importance of this and can't understand why it can be right for the Canine Alliance to be claiming this territory and not the RSPCA.  Don't have any problem with them using modern internet savvy methods either this is what the people donating to them expect.  If there is no case to answer there should not be a problem and if there is, well then it is a good thing surely.

Nice to know the RSPCA are putting charity givers money to good use yet again (rolls eyes)

> Nice to know the RSPCA are putting charity givers money to good use yet again (rolls eyes)

I don't understand what you mean.  Whether we like it or not surely this is what  their donors wish them to do.  The campaign is well publicised.  Too well according to some :)

The person is getting a rough ride on another forum I contribute to - a lot of people are very unhappy with them, the way they spend their money and don't contribute to local centres and indeed employing someone to surf the net yet who isn't able to make any comment except regurgitate rubbish already put out....

It's not that recent and I would hope that they constantly review them regarding any welfare issues.

It will not make much difference until all working breeds & pedigree dogs in the UK carry out the annual fit for purpose breeding licence mandatory test as they do in Europe. Genetic traits are transmissable, it only takes one dog to spread something through entire breed, its only when somethings showing in numerous dogs someone somewhere takes notice, by then its to late.

I mean its not as if the numerous genetic disorders are always conspiciously visible, they are the opposite.

FEDERATION CYNOLOGIQUE INTERNATIONALE (AISBL)
http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/Breeding_EN.doc
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I was rather unhappy to see my rally group promoting a fun show in aid of the RSPCA - I was rather glad when it was cancelled due to weather. :-D Sorry for the organisers that had done the hard work of course, but glad the RSPCA won't be getting the money!

> Genetic traits are transmissable, it only takes one dog to spread something through entire breed, its only when somethings showing in numerous dogs someone somewhere takes notice, by then its to late.

Nothing to do with breed standards.  The issues with them is breeding for too great an exaggeration and it is never too late to draw back from them so your hobby horse is irrelevent here :)

Nothing to do with breed standards.  The issues with them is breeding for too great an exaggeration and it is never too late to draw back from them so your hobby horse is irrelevent here

I don't breed, I rely on breeders, my dogs are not found under stones left for me by the fairies. But your right, oh yes you are right, my approach, needs & insistancies are irrelevant here, here, by your implications, they are proud of being the only country in Europe which has no restrictions on who breeds what with what, except, I think, only 2 litters per annum from same dog are allowed to be registered at Das Mayfair, Clarges Strasse, Hunde Reichstag.

Thankfully my dogs are nothing to do with any of that, I want healthy dogs with sound, healthy conformations & good biological health standards which last well into old age, albeit breeders have to carry out a lot of hard work to maintain that.

I for one hope the RSPCA has a significant impact on KC & its the odd country out in Europe.

Europe mandatory tests.

Regulations of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) are binding on all member countries and contract partners.

· These FCI breeding regulations apply directly to all FCI member countries as well as the contract partners.  This means that breeding may only be carried out with pedigree dogs which have a sound temperament, are healthy in functional and hereditary terms and are registered with a studbook or register (appendix) recognised by the FCI.  In addition, they have to fulfil the requirements specified by the relevant FCI member or contract partners.

·  The only dogs which are considered to be healthy in hereditary terms are those transferring breed standard features, breed type and temperament typical of that breed without displaying any substantial hereditary defects which could impair the functional health of its descendants. The members and contract partners of the FCI are required in this regard to prevent any exaggeration of breed features in the standards which could result in impairment of the dogs' functional health.

·  Dogs with eliminating faults such as e.g. unsound temperament, congenital deafness or blindness, hare-lip, cleft palate, substantial dental defects or jaw anomalies, PRA, epilepsy, cryptorchidism, monorchidism, albinism, improper coat colours or diagnosed severe hip dysplasia may not be bred.

·  With regard to surfacing hereditary defects, e.g. HD or PRA, the FCI member countries and contract partners are obliged to record affected .animals, combat these defects in a methodical manner continuously record their development and report to the FCI on this matter when requested.
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> here, by your implications

I think you know perfectly well I was referring to this thread.

It makes it quite clear in that document:
"·  Competence and responsibility for breeding rests with the member countries and contract partners of the FCI and includes breeding guidance, breeding advice and monitoring breeding as well as the keeping of the studbook."

Many FCI countries the breeders do less health testing than we done in some breeds, for example prcd-PRA DNA testing in my breed available since late 2008, has not been taken up by Scandinavian breeders, this causes those of us who are Kennel club Assured Breeders a problem, as we are only allowed to use tested stock in our breeding programs, so going for new blood to the country of origin will be difficult.

I'm afraid you have a simplistic understanding of the regulated canine breeding world.  None of this applies to the vast majority of dogs bred outside registries, with no notice taken of any breed standard or health testing.

So perhaps the RSPCA should concentrate their efforts on the casual back yard breeder and the commercial breeders (Puppy farmers) instead of constantly picking at the easy targets, Kennel club and dog hobby breeders, who are at the forefront of health testing research and testing.

Many FCI countries the breeders do less health testing than we done in some breeds,

Indeed, eye testing abroad in my breed is virtually unheard of in countries such as France, Belgium, Holland -where the breed is FAR more popular than here so rather important to do. And Sweden doesn't see much importance to MRI scanning for Cavaliers even though as a country it otherwise is very good at health tests. Well I've said all this before, anyone else think there is an echo in here?

Always the one to make sense brainless, yet again it us the get the poke with the stick, I phoned to get a stray cat picked up the other month and the rspca would not take it, that's hardly doing the best by animals :(

The RSPCA don't take in strays - that's not their job.

They have rescues where they can go my friend runs one through them, they didn't even offer any advice, they have turned into one big fat cash cow

> they have turned into one big fat cash cow

They have operated at a loss for some time now. 
If your friend runs a rescue why did you not take the cat there?  Rescues are for rescues, the RSPCA is for the "prevention of cruelty".  
If the rescues are full the RSPCA cannot magically create homes for them, there are just too many unwanted animals.  As they rightly say they would be overwhelmed and could do nothing else, bearing in mind that they are not just for domestic animals but must spread their resources across all the needs of farm animals and wildlife.
I'm afraid the concern with whether pedigree animals are bred with welfare in mind is exactly within their remit whether we like it or not and I don't think anyone can deny some breeders in some breeds have not been properly concerned about their breeds in this respect over and above breeding to their ideal for the show ring, hence the steps the KC have taken.

The RSPCA do campaign against puppy farmers but the Kennel Club remains important because of their influence over the way that pedigree dogs are bred and presented to the public so it is understandable that they remain within their sphere of interest.  As I say, I cannot see the difference between the RSPCA poking them over this and what the Canine Alliance is claiming to stand for.

Brainless
Many FCI countries the breeders do less health testing than we done in some breeds, for example prcd-PRA DNA testing in my breed

Heathspaw
Is prcd-PRA a problem in those countries?

Goldmali
Indeed, eye testing abroad in my breed is virtually unheard of in countries such as France, Belgium, Holland -where the breed is FAR more popular than here so rather important to do

Same question to goldmali.
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I think what I need to point out is that I only deal with my own breed, I do not know & have never met, any breeder in Europe who dabbles in knowledge & comments about other breeds in Europe.

That said, there are no health, drive or conformation problems I am aware of with Dobes in Europe & I am up to date on those issues. If something shows up on the fit for purpose test the dog simply will not pass the test, which happen to quite a few dogs at the time they take the test.

The only thing is buyers knowledge on what type you want & what type you get, they get well informed on that score from breeders there, well with this breed anyway.

So what I don't understand is are the things you two mention actually problems in the countries you mention. Based on youtube messages I get from owners here there are all kinds of problems here which have either been 'problems' with the breed in Europe or it was contained long, long ago and is simply not a problem in Europe.

I cannot believe that only Dobes are as problem free over there, it makes no sence.

Below is a very good guide to assessing the state of this breed. The photos are from 1904- May, June2012. Maintaining consistent conformations for this, as a working breed, are vital, change the conformations for looks or some other bright idea someone might have and you change a whole load of other genetics as well.

The photos below over the 108 years covered show no significant changes have ever taken place, my bitch in May & Jun 2012 showing the 2 natural stances of the breed are simply unchanged since the 1904 photo, that was when the breed had reached a standard, accepted conformation & was breeding reasonably consistent dogs for a new breed (1896 first dogs). They did add a pincher of the time & a black greyhound by around 1908 and that, as far as I know, was the end of other breeds to add something to the emerging Dobermann.

Just check out the photos and anyone can see the sheer lack of messing about with conformations. Today, the breed is allowed 2cm's out of conformation & it will not get a fit for purpose breeding licence under the German ZTP fit for purpose test.

It cannot be the only breed in Europe conforming to FCI standards of contract.

*****                ********                   ********************
Dobe conformations & natural stands (non-show poses) 1904-May June 2012.

Almost all photos are of bitches to compare to my own over the 108 years covered in these photos.

There are about 3 males of 1930s & 40s period because I found no bitch photos without going through the entire photos available for the breed of the period. Males are more square conformations than bitches.

My own 2012 dog is the last 2 photos, ALL stands for ALL dogs are natural stands.

Photos - Modern working weights, 28k Bitch - 38k Dog.
http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/album?album_id=1361644460
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Breeds do not exist in isolation in different countries (except in the hands fo back yard breeders and commercial breeders who aren't going to go to the expense of importing bloodlines), they all have the same genetic background and exchange of bloodliens, especially now with travel much easier and the pet passport system has allowed UK to join in more than once was possible. 

So generally any genetic problem in a breed is likely to apply to any country in the world as bloodlines are shared.

Certainly in my breed we have imported stock from Scandinavia every generation or so adn exchanged bloodlines with the USA etc, whcih contain comon lines with thsoe in Scandinavia and UK and elsewehre in the world.

With Goldmalis breed being a european one, if there are issues in the UK stcok which was and is imported from Europe where do you think the issues have come from?

they all have the same genetic background and exchange of bloodliens

So generally any genetic problem in a breed is likely to apply to any country in the world as bloodlines are shared

That sounds perfectly sensible & straight forwards. Problem is it is far from as simple as that.

With this breed, the standard UK show dogs were bred entirely on changing looks in just about every way they could every few years, back length, weight (I have even seen dogs here must weigh around 7stone).

The very reason I went back & collected those conformation & stance photos was to exhibit by image what is very complex & difficult to explain.
But, to explain it in simple terms, if you change some external structure by breeding with certain dogs showing the structure change you want, you will not just change that, you will change all kinds of genetic predispositions with it e.g. if someone breeds for shorter ears over a few generations  they have not just changed the ears, no one but no one can sit in a chair and intellectually arrive a sound conclusion that if they do that only the ears will change, as I said in the post showing the consistency of conformations, they will change a whole host of  genetics, the dogs produced are not genetically the same as the dogs they imported, genetically they are different dogs which is what led to the problems we have here.

Here in UK with show dogs with this breed show people have bred the drives out of the dogs completely by comparison, they are couch dogs basically, with all that comes a whole host of potential herditary disorders. I would say that the ultra low drives is in itself a disorder, the dogs cannot carry out what they were bred for, same with all show dogs changed from the working dog they once were.

But as I said, it is far, far more complex than the very few simple variables I just wrote.
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Is prcd-PRA a problem in those countries? - if they don't test, who can say?

Please would you clarify something for me, in simple terms if you don't mind, are you saying dogs bred in Europe are more healthy or less healthy?

Jeff.

> there are no health, drive or conformation problems I am aware of with Dobes in Europe & I am up to date on those issues.

> If something shows up on the fit for purpose test the dog simply will not pass the test, which happen to quite a few dogs at the time they take the test.

If there are no problems in the breed then surely every dog would pass the test?

Is prcd-PRA a problem in those countries? -if they don't test, who can say?

Firstly, I have no idea what it is, but, the fact it was written as if it is some kind of problem displaying effects on the dogs, then if it is a 'problem' in the breeds home country Sweden (I think that's the country mentioned) they would know because it will manifest and the dogs would be affected by it in whatever way it affects dogs, in the same way blindness affects some spaniels.
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and my other question?

Please would you clarify something for me, in simple terms if you don't mind, are you saying dogs bred in Europe are more healthy or less healthy?

I am saying Dobes as a breed are more or less healthy, the ones with health probs fail the ZTP. I would not take any chances with any KC, I would never buy a KC registered.

But others who seem to deal with Europe seem to be indicating the breed they deal with is the same as here, no explanations as to why they deal with Europe if thats the case, until I read those indications I would have expected all Euro wortking breed clubs to be at a standard the Dobe breed clubs are so based on what Brainless mainly said I am not sure about other breeds but no one else has mentioned other breeds and Brainless has not told me if the condition she named is actually a problem in Sweden or not.

Its been very difficult dealing with Europe until Jan 1st this year, a big load of hassle & not something anyone would want if there was an equal or better alternative here at the time, now it don't matter thank heavens.

Its much to do with the combinations they breed with. A good example of how fine they are with their combination choices was when I asked a breeder over their how suitable my dog would be to breed with one dog from there, she came back just over a week later having done all the research & said she was not because if she was mixed with that particular dog she would throw 'blue' Dobes, which have skin probs, but, one of the other dogs from the same prefix kennel was fine, that mix would throw mainly black & tan. They research through their breed registration club.

I did not breed anyway.

Below is one of several messages by someone had a KC Dobe said, she had dobes in 1980s & had no problems then, I think the genetics for probs were in the breed then but took a few years to come through, the dog they had had a terminal condition :

The vet told me not to get another Dobermann if I get another dog one day as all the ones he sees have so many health problems! He has another one on the books that has 7 ongoing conditions. We've had 2 other Dobes in the past.
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> they would know because it will manifest and the dogs would be affected by it in whatever way it affects dogs

If I've googled correctly ("prcd" stands for "progressive rod-cone degeneration, PRA=Progressive Retinal Atrophy, )then it is recessive, which means both parents can be carriers and not show it but produce offspring with it. It's not as simple as not using those that show they have the condition, carriers must not be bred together even though they show no sign of it affecting them.

It's not as simple as not using those that show they have the condition, carriers must not be bred together even though they show no sign of it affecting them.

I know but its a good idea to put those things on here. Some Dobes in Europe are VW carriers but they can breed with non affected dogs without problems although their might be a gender combination which has to be a discrimination factor, I don't know.

Numerous hereditary disorders exist but they are not a problem if only the right combinations are bred from.

Quite right, and the condition is late onset, so you would not know a dog was a carrier until it was no longer being used for breeding as most affected cases were only picked up in UK at about 6 years of age, and obvious clinical signs don't show up until after that. 

Few in Scandinavia eye test so would miss the dogs loosing their sight and just put eventual blindness as down to old age.

Over the 20 years I have been in my breed despite at least 20% of all dogs born being eye tested only 4 affected cases had come to light (probably those untested in pet homes didn't realise they had it if the effects were late).

Yet when the DNA test became available a very high proportion of dogs were found to be carriers.  No-one knowingly wishes to breed dogs with problems which is why most hereditary diseases are of a recessive nature or worse still polygenic, so almost impossible to breed away from.

As for why people use overseas bloodlines, it is to keep gene pools healthily diverse and to bring in or strengthen characteristics ones own dogs do not excel in.  Traits can easily be lost, and then one needs to go further afield to get them back.

Whether dogs have changed phenotypically or not (my own also has changed little over many decades) this does not mean that health issues and mutations do not occur, we have to be even watchful, as we do not have nature to allow only the fittest to survive.

Also one has to bare in mind that nature is only interested in an organism being healthy enough to produce and rear the next generation, so those genes that cause problems of old age or late onset diseases would not be naturally selected against.

Hethspaw,
So MORE healthy over all then?
I do agree that the GB KC needs to do more but strongly disagree things are always better with FCI Kennel Clubs - more or less. As I know you appreciate there are many breeds other than Dobes and not all are in a better position health-wise than their GB counterparts and this forum is not a breed specific one hence my post.

As to a vet saying do not get a dog of "X" breed, I doubt this is based on good data. A vet is unaware of how many healthy examples there are as they are not seen.
As an example I had a very good vet tell me not to buy a certain breed because "they ALL have bad hearts" - unsound bordering on negligent advice IMHO. Of course when I took my two dogs of this breed into him with perfectly healthy hearts this advice was conveniently forgotten.

Overall I think I am saying many Kennel Clubs need to raise their game NOT just the GB KC.

Jeff. 

She hasn't been posting on all pet forums, she has mainly targeted Reptile Forums for some odd reason.

> She hasn't been posting on all pet forums, she has mainly targeted Reptile Forums for some odd reason.

High BYB content of all species.

Its not odd at all RSPCA have aligned with APA an extremist animal rights group Animal Protection Agency who have attempted on several occassions to put a stop to Breeders member sale days of surplus animals. Each time they have failed due to the excellent Federation of British Herpetologists and International Herpetological Society who took the necessary legal actions needed to see the shows continue as they are legal.

Well the herp breeders on that forum may well be legal honest and decent but that did not extend to the breeders of other species on there at all.

The Digital communications officer  sounds young , looks young in her avatar pics on the forums ,  and has been working for them for 18 months. On one forum there are 25 pages of flack , to which she has replied the standard  'image ' replies. Compared to the signatures on the Lennox  petitions , 16,000 is  small.

Will not because it's any of your business my friend was having mental health issues at the time, I think the rspca has had its day I rarely here anythin g positive about them now, I gives all my money to independent rescues now.

Brainless
Quite right, and the condition is late onset, so you would not know a dog was a carrier until it was no longer being used for breeding as most affected cases were only picked up in UK at about 6 years of age, and obvious clinical signs don't show up until after that

There is nothing anyone can do about that.

Brainless
Over the 20 years I have been in my breed despite at least 20% of all dogs born being eye tested only 4 affected cases had come to light (probably those untested in pet homes didn't realise they had it if the effects were late).

If there is no successful detection test there can be no way of predicting it, whatever the "it" is.

But, last night I looked to find historical photos of your breed to see if there had been significant changes in the physical conformations & structure of the breed for show purposes to compare them to the dobermann historical photos I put up back.

What i also could not find was any recent reference to the breed as a working dog. Is it still classed as a deployable working dog in Norway & in the breed tests do they do a working test (drives etc) ?
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Jeff
So MORE healthy over all then?

So far this breed has shown up as having an hereditary disorder which cannot yet be tested for in advance of the onset. I am very interested to know how much/to what degree this breed has been changed from its deployable, working originals i.e. is now considered to be just a show breed? (that question to anyone).

One breed, out of how many in FCI accepted breeds? KC have around 204 breeds on their books & by the way, I am talking about breeds which still have deployable working lines, not show dogs.

> What i also could not find was any recent reference to the breed as a working dog. Is it still classed as a deployable working dog in Norway & in the breed tests do they do a working test (drives etc) ?
> .
>
>

You need to search under Norsk Elghund Gra. 

In Norway and other Scandinavian countries the breed is an important working breed, and those that show do so, so that their dogs can get their Working titles as in Scandinavia no working dog can get its hunting title unless it conforms to the breed standard to a high degree, and gets 'first Quality/Excellent' grading.  Also no dog can achieve it's show title without hunting trial awards.

Be careful when looking for show photos that your not basing your judgement on US dogs where the preparation  and style of handling will give a different stylised look, in UK the presentation is more natural as it is in Scandinavia.

> If there is no successful detection test there can be no way of predicting it, whatever the "it" is.
>
>

This is where the DNA tests are a boon.

> It's not that recent and I would hope that they constantly review them regarding any welfare issues.

Don't have any problem with them using modern internet savvy methods either this is what the people donating to them expect.  If there is no case to answer there should not be a problem and if there is, well then it is a good thing surely.

The KC constantly review their breed standards, they also understand that you cannot make dramatic changes over night which the RSPCA don't seem to be able to understand. Probably this is because the RSPCA have no experience of breeding any animal, unlike dog breeders and any other stock keeper.

I do have a problem with the RSPCA spending a lot of donation money on employing a girl (and it may well be more than one) to sit and play online every day. How many dogs could be helped for that amount? Even if it was only one then I would rather as a dog lover save that one dog.

In Norway and other Scandinavian countries the breed is an important working breed, and those that show do so, so that their dogs can get their Working titles as in Scandinavia no working dog can get its hunting title unless it conforms to the breed standard to a high degree, and gets 'first Quality/Excellent' grading.  Also no dog can achieve it's show title without hunting trial awards.

Thats exactly the same standards as the German ZTP for dobermanns except no one can show a Dobe in an international championship show with gaining Sch 1, it's a different, there is a protection & courage test in ZTP but it's not the same as Sch.

The reason I asked is I was looking for your breed in a European working context as well as archive photos to see if the conformations & other things have changed as the years went by but I did not find the elk hound on euro working dog site I use sometimes, it's the photos I really wanted.

http://www.working-dog.eu/?new_lan_en
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Be careful when looking for show photos that your not basing your judgement on US dogs where the preparation  and style of handling will give a different stylised look, in UK the presentation is more natural as it is in Scandinavia.

Nooooo.....I was not, would not, bother with photos for show poses.

The Dobe photos I put on yesterday were the dogs natural stance, I looked at the list again this morning & I think if the photos of my own dog in 2011 & the other was, I think, last month, were made into B/W and stuck in at any point from the first 1904 photo dog no one would notice any significant difference over all that time.
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This is where the DNA tests are a boon.

There was a related program on TV last night, or maybe it was part of BBC2 10:30 newsnight. Its the funding they  all lack, the human thing last night was that they can release specific anti body cells which eat cancer tumours, the cells attack the tumours straight away. But they dont have the funding to research into a medicine which triggers the release of enough anti-bodies.

How they fund research into dog DNA specifics heavens knowns but you can be pretty sure that with the right amount of funding they would be years in advance of what they are now.

Breed clubs raise the funds as the Border collie breeders did for CEA(edited to add alone with other breeds), CL,TNS and now Glaucoma

Yes and it's the real breed lovers, the small number that use the kennel club/ISDS not the back street breeders and commercial breeders that fund research, same as breed rescue.

To be honest the only photos you will see to assess a whole dog are ones from shows, hunters usually have their dogs sitting by the kill, or their backsides on teh hunt, or if yoru lucky barkign at the moose at bay probably photographed with a long lens so fuzzy pictures, so won't tell you much about the conformation.

As I said previously you need to serch for the breed under it's original name 'Norsk Elghund Gra', which actually means Norwegian Elk(Moose) dog (gray).

> I do have a problem with the RSPCA spending a lot of donation money on employing a girl (and it may well be more than one) to sit and play online every day. How many dogs could be helped for that amount?

Depends on what she spends her time doing.  If she is there to help educate people in responsible animal ownership then a great many animals could be helped.  From what others have said this does not seem to be particularly aimed at dogs.

OK brainless, it will take more research for photos than I thought there seems to be three types - In europe Dobes also have 3 types, the working & shutzhund lines which are the same in conformation its just the weight they are 28k female 38k male but these dogs the owners don't show, they just do schutzhund & the dogs which are predominatly shown but also do a minimum degree of Sch & invariably the ZTP (fit for purpose test).
The pure working lines are same weight etc as Sch dogs but the temprament etc is not so good really, not really many of those around since the collapse of communism & the border etc.

But here, this says there are the 3 types of your breed, it could take ages if at all to find old photos of a type that shows any significant changes over the  years.

http://tinyurl.com/cbpavrd
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There are not three types (a variation in the same breed) there are 4 elk dog breeds a bit like we have different breeds of Spaniel or Setter. 

The Swedish white Elkhound was originally derived from the Swedish Elkhound or Jamthund (which has white markings) and only recognised in the last 20 years or so, it essentially has the same standard as the Jamthund except for colour.

There is the Black Elkhound, which is quite rare and is smaller, with less coat than either the Norwegian Grey or Swedish.

Then you have the Norwegian Elkhound (Norsk Elghund Gra).  To confuse matters in Sweden there were dogs that to all intents and purposes were identical to Norwegian Elkhounds, and were called in Sweden 'Grahund', and these were bred with the tall Swedish until the 1930's I think (not good on dates), but this was stopped and they were incorporated/accepted as Norwegian Elkhounds.

So again only look for Norwegian Elkhound (in English speaking countries), Norsk Elghund Gra or in Finland (where they are in the top 10 breeds) 'Harmaa Norjanhirvikoira'