Anyone out there ever had the experience of owning rotties and dobe's??? I know that each dog is an individual and the character is very dependant on how their owners bring them up but I'd like to know from people who have had first hand experience of how they compare (in general) to each other. Not which one is better, but what are the pro's and con's of both. Do they react the same to family/strangers/other dogs? How are they the same, and how are they different? How do their personalities differ? etc etc
Josh_

Josh -do you mean rotties and dobes together at the same time ??
( sorry extra dim today ;) )
Liz

hi steve

I think that is what he means at the same time! I can't comment as had no experience keeping two seperates breeds at all I own or should i say he owns me :D one male dobe brown and tan

Alison

dont be silly liz, its me not being clear enough. I have a GSD bitch at the mo, and am contemplating to get either a rottie or dobe when she has fully matured. I just want to know the opinions of people whom have had first hand experience with both breeds as to what they thought.
Josh_

I was gonna say ----ARE YOU MAD :D :D
there is a thread at the moment - i think its gone to idle chat now -some one else was looking for info on dobes
I've got a 15mth male if theres anything i can answer for you ! ( Can't guarantee it'll be right though ! )
As for rotties sorry can't help
Liz :)

mad.....but not stupid!!!:)

The thread info on dobes is back in general but thread locked, some good info on there though.

Alison

yeah I know there are thread about, and I've got loads of books on them as specific breeds, but I thought I'd ask around to see if there was anyone out there who has lived with, and trained both. See what they thought. If they thought that training their dobe was easier than their rottie, or visa versa. Whether they trained the dobe in a certain way, but when they tried that with the rottie, it didn't seem to work aswell. How their rottie was towards other people/kids/other dogs as compared to their dobe etc etc etc

Hi Josh,

I may be able to offer a teensy-weensy bit of help on this. I've got a 20 month male dobe and am good friends with a lady who owns rotties. We thought about dobes versus rotties & decided on the former. I have found Hugo, my dobe, to be boisterous to the point of being dangerous around other dogs and kids. He lunges, jumps, spins, leaps up at faces (trying to lick you but ends up headbutting you) just far too over eager to be friendly to everyone. He's intelligent and learns quickly. Any new trick is learnt within 3 attempts and never forgotten. However, he goes deaf when outside. All our training goes out the window as all he wants to do is run and chase - and that takes precedence over everything else. Indoors, he's doting to the point of sickliness, (he'll stare lovingly into your eyes for hours) and wants to sit on your lap or lie on top of you so you can't see the tv. He also guards well and sleeps a lot. Sometimes you can't get him out of bed in the morning!

My friend has always had rotties. She states they're clever but slower than dobes, they think things through more slowly. She finds her dogs will take their time in making their mind up about whether they like you or not, if not, they'll stand next to you curling lips & showing teeth until you leave. She finds her (spayed) rottie has funny turns and is untrustworthy at times. She won't ever leave kids and dog in the same room. When her dogs stand their ground (like refusing to move off the sofa) there is nothing she can do about it due to their weight and stubborness. However, she finds them a joy to walk as they're not as mad as dobes and will interact better with games of ball and training sessions outside. She also finds them very loyal and will stand next to you rather than chase another dog.

As an aside, rotties make better police dogs than dobes (according to our police dog trainer) as they are more reliable and human orientated, not as distractable as dobes. Plus, they bite harder which is always useful!

Of course, this is all based on just a few doggy characters and we know they're all different but I hope it helps anyway.

Lady G

Thank you so much Lady G. Thats exactly the type of information that I'm looking for. I guess the dobes have a tendency to chase and be a little hyper from its terrier nature.

>She finds her (spayed) rottie has funny turns and is untrustworthy at times< Is this becasue she's been spayed? Or is it in your persoanl opinion that rotties can be untrustworthy, or maybe female is particular?
>When her dogs stand their ground (like refusing to move off the sofa) there is nothing she can do about it due to their weight and stubborness< I have read that you must be "firm yet fair" with rotties as they do have a dominant character. Does this sort of behaviour occur throughout a rotties life, or only through their teens? Is there anyway to prevent this sort of behavior, or as a rottie keeper, do you have to just accept that this is the way that they are?

I am a little confused on a particular point. Maybe you could clear it up for me. You wrote >As an aside, rotties make better police dogs than dobes (according to our police dog trainer) as they are more reliable and human orientated< yet on the other hand you wrote that the female has "turns". I would be really appreciative if you could get back to me.

Josh did you not post befor about wanting a rotty and is it not you that is going to me caroline about a rotty.

Thats right. I'd love to get a rottie, but only if the circumstances were right. I'm going to the working show tomorrow. Unfortunatley I have to work in the afternoon, so will only be there in the morning so I may not get to see her, or even any rotties but I'm so looking forward to it, its gonna be my first "show"!!!!:)

Hi Josh

If you let me know what time you will be there i wil make a point of being there to meet you.

Thats very sweet of you to say. I'm going to be there for about 9.30 or 10 and leave about 12 ish latest. Like I said, if I see you, then I see you, if not , I'll come and see you another time, no rush!!! I understand that your going to be busy so I dont what to get in the way of you, and your dogs competing, and hopefully winning (fingers crossed). Goodluck tomorrow.
Josh

A point which I'd like to make, is that we have a very large family, and we always have people coming around. When we first decided to get i dog, we had a certain criteria.
(1) Dog must be able to guard the property, and be able to give protection to Mum, Grand Ma etc when we are out
(2) Must sleep in a shed/kennel outside
(3) Even though my family have always kept dogs, I was going to take full responsibility, and I was new to dog training/handling so I wanted a dog who was going to be easy to train.

We decided to get a GSD bitch. GSD because of the first two reasons, and bitch because they dont have the dominating character that males do.
With loads of love and attention she has (touch wood) turned into a lovely dog and we are now thinking of adding to the family.

Our other fav breeds are Rotties and Dobes, and know that we have a little more knowledge of dogs, am confident that we could give a good home to one. I know that both dogs could easily perform the first criteria, but am a little concerned with criteria (2). Both breeds have short coats and am not sure about them being able to sleep in a kennel during the winter months. What do you lot think???

Another thing, I have read from other posts that dobes can be destructive when left alone. Is this also true from rotties? Is a dog "on its own" if with other dogs?????

Hi Josh
from the dobe point of view - I dont think they are outside dogs unless you have heated kennels as they are single coated ,
Yes they are boisterous -jumping etc, i have 2 children of my own and i mind another 4 so i have 6 children in the house from age ranges 5-12 girls and boys and he is good with them ,We obviously have the steady stream of friends in and out and although he is alittle boisterous at times it nothing that can't be controlled and is getting easier with time :)
Personally I wouldn't say they are 'easy' to train as they are too damm clever ! but once they've learnt it Like Jaime says its there forever
Hth
Liz

Thanks Liz. A few people i've talked to have said that dobes dont do to well outside. I'd love to own one someday, but I want to be able to give him his own little peice of heaven, on earth. If your saying that dobes dont do so well outside, then, unfortunately for me, they would be out of the question.

josh i have to agree with steve,dobies do not do well in kennels whether rescue,holiday or home,they are extreamely people orientated and will cause stress,rotties too im afraid,dobie coats too offer no protection against the cold.
lady G very interesting reading about rotties make better police dogs,wiltshire wont use them as like in a previous posting on this topic they are much slower and think things through and our force wiltshire wont use them for tracking and public order dogs as i said earlier they sometimes have this "i cant be bothered" attiude,its very interesting that another police dog handler thinks differently.im not dissagreeing with him but find it very interesting about the two opinions.
someone mentioned about the rottie too large to get off the setee,this is where the confrontation sets in,they challenge you and they win,a very good way to get them off without a danger to yourself is to get behind the chair or settee and in a forceful authorative voice in one word say OFF and tip the chair/settee forward so they no choice but to fall off.you have then WON with no danger of facing raised lips and daring you to get them off!
a good reward after they get off will make it worth their while in the end.

best wishes
jackie

tee hee! i'm a little drunk (but needed to log on and speak with jackieeuk re a greyhound) and she's also e-mailed me about the above post! just been saying how we've had an excellent rottie cross in wilts force for ages (now retired) and the force have recently taken on a 1 year old rottie who's doing fab!

Jacs - you must speak with bob (the dog trainer) more often! he must be spitting fire now he's had to eat his words about rotties!! :D

must get off to bed before i spill something on the keyboard or fall off my chair...

Hi Josh

Neither of my rottweilers will stay out in a kennel and run, they just sit and howl the place down.
This is on their own or with the other dogs.
From my experience I would say that rottweilers like to be with their family.

Nicola
Thanks for your response.

>Neither of my rottweilers will stay out in a kennel and run, they just sit and howl the place down< Are they occustomed to staying in the house? Is this why they don't like being outside, or do you think that rotties, in ,general, dont like to be in a kennel?

How have you found training your dogs? Do they, or have they, tried to asert their dominance over you? How have you dealt with the situation? Could you maybe tell me about some specific incidents
Josh

Hi Josh

The rott weren't accustomed to staying in the house but they are now. The noise was unbearable. I have been told by many people that rotts like to be with their family and do not like to be separated.
For training we have used an ex police dog handler as I found in classes they didn't listen, Tiegan always wanted to get at the other dogs and Lottie always wants to kiss the other dogs and their handlers. I have found training hard work but then my other breed is labs and they are easy, once you get them to engage the brain:D
Tiegan is extremely dominant about everything, doesn't like other dogs, and will take a dislike to certain people. However she came from a bad breeder and I feel alot of this is down to this fact.
Lottie on the other hand is great with people, other animals etc and just loves everyone. If someone knocks on the door she barks but then runs away to hide!!!!!!!!
However she is now 16 months old and she is challenging us about everything. Everything with Lottie at the moment is a chore, if I walk her she'll try to drag me, if you let her off lead she won't come back, she is dominating all the other dogs etc etc but I just don't stand for her nonsense. The groundwork was done when she was younger so I'm not worried, I know she'll settle back down she just needs to test her boundaries at the moment. I tell her daily I'll get her a one way ticket back to her breeder:D I wouldn't part with her for anything though.

Hi nicolla, i have to rotts and they love to come indoors but they like outdoors more, they have lived outthere all the time so that is what they are used to. when bud comes in he is panting after a couple of hrs, so what we do is come evening they come in but go back out to bed.

Debbie

Nicola, Debbie and Cleo
My Sophie loves the garden. In summer when the nights are warm, she doesn't even go into the shed. I'm always getting her marrow bones (atleast one large one a week) and she is happy to either chomp her way through it during the day or watch the birds fly by. I just assumed that the young pup would learn from the old. What do you lot reckon?
Josh

josh,
i am a brand new member and have seen this post these are the two breeds which i have always had in my life,
towards family members they are the same,very loyal,soppy and protective of their home,that doesnt mean they
will attack anyone but they will sure let you know if there is anyone at the front door or about,they love to hear their own
voice so be warned! this can be a very noisey environment if you dont keep up on them.dobermans are extreamely active and need a lot of stimulation/excercise, rotties are not far behind but are lazier in character and have a cant be bothered attitude sometimes where as a dobie is up for anything at anytime.
dobie bitches are much more tollerant of smaller children than dogs,although both wouldnt deliberaltely harm children(if they have no cause to) but the boys do seem to have a lower pain tollerance than bitches,i dont have children this is what i have learnt over the years.
dobie and rottie dogs are re-nowned for not liking other dogs esp if they are challenged and are up for a fight if they are confronted where bitches generally dont really want to know unless its a bitch wanting a pop.the same i guess just different sex but are less likely to want to keep wanting to get involved with other dogs.
these are general traits obviously each dog is an individual and some will obviously go against what i have said but all in all if i had to make a decision on one or the other it would have to be toss a coin sinario.two dobie dogs will fight to the death if necessary the same for rotties but rotties can and do sometimes live together but its extreamly rare,numerous dog owners were horrified when pet rescue programme actually filmed a dobie owner adopting "another boy" to live with his current one and the owner just couldnt understand why his resident dog with no warning and for no apparent reason tore into the new dog and severely injured him,this is something that shouldnt have happened as the rescue centre should have known you cant do it.two bitches can do the same.
hope this is of some assistance to you,brought up properly and not played roughly with and play fights with the owner the dog should grow up to be a happy friendly dog,i have kept as i said numerous over the years and each and every dog has always welcomed strangers they have never met before into the house,they know if its ok by you,then its ok by them.
one word of warning they are very dominent and if you are weak as a leader they will take over then you will have problems keep on top of them by being firm and ask them to do something and dont give up until they have done what has been ASKED of it as they will know they can get away with it and then they will challenge anything you want them to do,that then becomes a dangerous situation.i always give the worst sinarios to let people know what could happen ,these things may never happen but as long as you are aware then you are prepared.they are wonderful dogs both breeds and really dont deserve the reputation as they are as stupid as they come,inteligence ??? not always there im afraid you wonder just where they are coming from sometimes.


best wishes
jackie

Hi Jackie , welcome to the forum :)

Melody

Thanks Jackie.
Its seems as thoguh you had a good relationship with your dogs. I'd like to put you in a senario, you see how you'd deal with it with dobe/rottie. You've already taught him basic obedience, whilst still a pup. He is now an adolesant and you ask him in down, and he looks at you, saying NO!!. what would you do? How would you be "firm yet fair" as a lot of people have said?
Josh_

thanks for the welcome,
josh if like you said you have taught the dog "basic obedience" he should have already learnt the down command as a puppy and will happy to obligue even as an adolecent,you should not get a "i dont want to " as a adolecence ,you will only get these problems if the dog hasnt been taught or had any kind of training before you get it ie you adopt or buy one at 12-14 months old.if the situation does occur take a step back,dont try and move on go back to basics and find something he can do readily.then you can move on again,dogs are very very willing if they know just what you want from them.
go back to what the dog will do then you can move forward.
there are several ways to get a dog to the down position,its no point putting yourself in a position where you can get bitten so by sitting in front of the dog and trying to pull his front legs forward as he/she can easily lean forward and take a crunch out of your arm which is still attached to his legs,
this is a method i would use in such a situation.with the lead on get the dog to sit,when you give the down command place your foot on the lead and apply pressure so the dogs head is pulled downwards,i dont mean to strangle the dog but firm enough for him to have no choice but to go down,if the dog resents at this stage you have the dog positioned to the side of you so he cant get to you like he could if you were on the floor and almost facing him,also the tension on the lead will mean the dog cant swing around and get you.the action must be swift,as there is no point dragging the dogs head to the floor and hanging on in there for minutes on end yelling down down DOWN ...lol until the dog is choking as he will obviously fight back.
this sounds harsh but if shown how its done or you may have seen it done already then you will know how easy it is.
as soon as he is down reward with a treat and praise.clickers are brilliant as they soon get to know a click means reward.
timing is of the essence.
does this help?

jackie

Thank you for your detailed reply. The reason I ask about disobediece when an adolesant is that I assumed, by reading from other posts, that during the"teen" phase, dogs "forget" what has been taught to them. And If I'm considering getting a rottie, or sometimes even a dobe for that matter, that are very dominating, I didn't know how I would cope with a potentially dangerous "teenage" dog, who doesn't listen, and whom can get aggressive towards pretty much anything he chooses.
I enjoy the socialsation period and love training my dog, so if your saying that dogs don't forget what they're told, then I 'm now comfortable with myself getting a rottie or dobe, or any other strong minded breed. I'm am getting information, that dobes aren't really outdoorsy dogs, so even though I'm a great fan, I wouldn't want the dog to become stressed out as a result of my "neglect". Thanks for your help, and if you have any other advice that you think I could take into account then please let me know.
Josh

Hi Josh,
Neither of my dobes would go out for a walk if it was bucketing down, a drizzle was about the limit. They would scorch their ears infront of the fire on a winters night and if it was really cold, our first dobe needed a greyhound jacket;) So mine would not have appreciated a kennel outside. Terrific with all other dogs, children, visitors etc. No probs, at all. Trained in the basics fairly easily, enough to behave correctly when out. Just my experience of dobes, don't have any with rotts though.
Best of luck
Bev

Thanks Bev
:)
Yeah, I'm getting that sort for response more and more. Never mind. Well its now either a Rottie or a Long Haired GSD.
Josh

josh just think of them as human teenagers,delectable little girls and sweet little boys turn in to creatures from hell for a few years once they get to their teens,we have all been there ,example they always tell you where they are going they always come home for tea but then overnight something happens,you say be home by 10 so they come home at midnight!
you say where are you going,they say god i cant do anything without you interfering .
thats what its like for dogs,really they wont suddenly turn in to murderous dogs overnight they just tend to come not when called but when they are ready to come,they get obstenate (not spelt right sorry) things like that they just want to be big boys and girls before they are old enough,dont worry,but one thing also the dogs temperment goes way back to good breeding too not just the way we bring them up.my dobies and rotties had their moments but i havenever had a confrontation, just stubborness so i ignore them and that gets to them as they want my attn and they dont get it but i have never had a puppy all have been rescued dogs and the youngest i have ever had is the one i have now,he was 18 months when i got him
he used to go into the garden then wouldnt come back when called so i just ignored him,shut the back door and shut him out! that works everytime ,im not going after him,he soon comes running once the back door is closed.my dogs are completely and utterlyspoilt,on the furniture with me which to a lot of people is wrong but i love my dogs and want them in my life and if it means them onn the settee with me then thats where they sleep.i give them treats when they havent done anything to earn one,everything i have said so far seems so`strict but if you could see just how soft i am with them! its not true.
jackie

Hi
think you are wise changing your mind on dob if i put mine out for more then half hour outside they start howling to come in and they wont stop till i open the door and let them in.
my freind two houses away from me has a rottie we train and walk together on recall hers comes and sits mine comes and at such a pace she slides into my legs which means many a time on bum in wet mud.
walk in her house and sit down and her dog walks over and sits in front of chair for fuss,
She walks in mine my nutter runs in and ends up on her lap licking saying you will fuss me.lol
dobs hyper dogs in comparson with the rottie,
But i do think the dob is quiker to learn
sandy.

Josh it doesn't mean the dog turns into something dangerous. Any dog of any breed will test it's boundaries just like teenagers do.
Lottie isn't dangerous now she's 16 mths and challenging what I say it just means she will just look at you as if too say Make Me. I don't have to be hard on her, if she won't come back I just walk away and when she comes galloping up I put her on lead and that's it. If I tell her to get down off the sofa and she won't I take hold of her collar and pull her. I have never been shown her teeth and I have never been growled at. She knows she's not going to win she's just testing me, if I let her win a few times then that could well lead to problems!

nicolla,
you have knocked the nail on the head with your previous message and put it more clearly than i did,like getting the dog off the settee or the dog not coming back.if you ask the dog to get off the settee and it looks at you and say well come and get me off,if you then bingo no problem ,the problem comes when people see the look in the dogs face then walk off,then the dog knows just how far he can push you and its not far so each time he will do it and each time he wins,we then become the weakest link.
thanks nicolla for putting it into a clearer prospective.

jackie

ooh, just read your question to me re spayed rotties, funny turns etc. i am going to bed soon honest! I was only referring to this one particular 7 year old female who has a dodgy temprament when challenged. jackie's idea to tip them off the sofa with the firm 'off' command sounds superb - i shall tell my friend, she'll be delighted!

i'm no expert on rotties though - i've learnt on this board that any full (un-spayed) bitch can get ratty when in season ( or is it just before?) so it maybe that her behaviour just never changed once spayed. she's never harmed the kids but will challange them, stare, curl her lips and growl quietly if she does not wish to be disturbed - this might be her displaying her dominance over the kids. She also does it when you stop stroking her and she wants you to carry on! it frightens the hell outta me! I'm not arguing with someone else's 12 stone baby!

I have read in a dog mag about a male rottweiler who when feeling 'frisky' would push his owner over, mount him and there wasn't a darn thing he could do about it until the dog was finished!!

I don't any dominance problems with my dappy dobe, he's silly enough to think I've got something marvellous waiting for him when I call him off the sofa and off he jumps off looking all expectant to find - nothing except me going to bed!

enough prattling from me.

A tipsy Lady G
(who has had a darn good night out! Jolly good form all round & some fabulous male specimans to admire I must say)

a lot of rotties actually growl when they are talking,when you said she growls when she is stopped stroking,does she growl and head nudge for more attn?? this sounds like on this particular time she "may" actually be talking,i too was taken aback from my friends rottie when she was alive she was bred way too big and stood an amazingly 30inches at the shoulder,considering they arnt supposed to be over 28" tops for a dog,her body frame couldnt take her weight and she died at an early age and was in so much pain for most of her life when exercised due to her joints not being able to cope,this rottie growled almost to the point of out of control but she was merely talking nothing more or nothing less but it was horriffic to hear.i obviously havent seen the rottie in question and i am no expert but rotties are terrible talkers and they can do horrific deep throated growls even open their mouths (not dispalying teeth) when they do this and it sounds extreamly violent but they are literally talking and nothing more.i can understand any dog making it clear to children that they want to be left alone so when you mentioned the kids that could be just her way of saying enough is enough,i truely think that she would have attacked by now if she meant harm and not just a warning, she sounds like a good mumsy type under all this just giving warnings without carrying out punishment like she would with pups.rotties have quite a short tollerence to things and wont put up with much for too long before the rubber band snaps but saying that it could be a potentually dangerous situation.being unspayed could be her problem,she like many many women could suffer from PMT and this could be the reason for her being grumpy no one likes being miserable all the time. this just could be her problem PMT.if she could be spayed her health could and would improve like many breeds rotties are very very prone to mammory tumours which quite often are malignant also the prime killer in older unspayed bitches is pyrometra (not spelt right)
and this is not a very nice way to go.unspayed bitches are top dogs they rule the pack over dogs and for being fighters are far worse than dogs,bitches mean to kill, dogs fight for supremicy,and once thats been established the fight is over but bitches fight to the death if they have to as it stems back to the wolf pack syndrome,only the Alfa bitch gets to mate so unless you are the Alfa bitch you dont get to have puppies so its worthwhile killing for this position! domestic bitches are different in that they all have puppies but deep inside them they still can have this "wanting to be Alfa bitch" just to make sure
these are only pointers as to what the problem maybe with your friends rottie,her current temperment may not be her true colours,her potentual loving nature just could be masked by underlining hormonal problems and being unspayed she will have this higher dominancy drive combined with a dominent breed as well could be her problems.Lady G i am no expert but if your friend wants to call me for a chat i would be more than willing to talk to her if she thinks i could help these are things i have learnt along the way and owning these dogs,i have got to know their traits over the years if i think i cant help i wont pretend to know things and try and muddle my way through to try and make out i know what to do then make matters worse by showing off but if i can help i will,if i cant then i will say so.
best wishes
jackie

Lottie talks to us. She sounds like she is growling and people visiting look but she is wagging her stump and kissing you at the same time.

nicolla,
thanks for writing about lottie,the more people who can back me up about rotties growling when talking the more that people will understand its not always aggression,
cheers
jackie

i wont keep getting on my soap box and writing novels but forgot to mention if any dog not just rotties and dobes know that you are top dog then you will NEVER have a problem,problems only arise when owners are in the eyes of the dog the weaker member of the pack and in their eyes isnt doing anything wrong by taking over,the dog is simply doing what he/she should be doing,the strongest dog is the leader and if the human is weaker then the dog will automatically take control,he doesnt know there's are problem he is simply doing whats in his nature.human dominancy doesnt have to be tough things run smoothly,dogs can even do things like take food off your plate which in a pack is a real no no and disrespectful but as long as the other dog knows its wrong but you are still in control you ALLOWED this to happen he will still never challenge you for domenancy,like human children you are their guardian you rule (or supposed to) over them but just sometimes they do things that really test your patience but at the end of the day they know who's boss and you ALLOWED them to do what ever they did and they werent taking control.does this make sense?

jackie

Totally agree with you about the growling, Rotties have a (genetic?) propensity for this. I suspect some "families" of Rotties growl talkatively more than other lines - other dogs do it too, but Rotties are a known breed for it.

Not to say that they can't growl in other ways too though LOL :)

Josh, teenage dogs and bitches dont' always forget everything, but you have to be sort of, consistent to carry them through this stage.

My Terv bitch was odd for 3 weeks before her season, and lost concentration, wouldn't do as I asked, messed about even in agilily which she loves

I tried pretty much everything I knew in a motiavtional sense but was almost at a loss, and other bitches i have had have never been so affected by their imminent season. ONce in season, she popped back to normal within 3 days I reckon......interesting experience. Training didn't really come into it - she was responding to her raging hormones but with persistence and most of all patience we came through it all.

It was lovely to have her back to normal though ;)

LIndsay

Thankyou to (her goes).........lindsay, jackie, nicolla, lady g, sandy, bev, melody, debbie, liz, carolyn (XXX), and alison for the time and effort, that you have all spent, trying to help me out. I have found ALL of the info/advice really really helpful. I'm sure there will be a lot more questions popping up in my mind, so I'm sure I'll be posting again soon. I hope that you can all help me out again.

Genuinely Grateful
Josh
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