Hi everyone i need some help with my 2 young pups. I have kept 2 from my last litter and they are now 9 weeks old. They have allways played really well although one is a bit rough at times on the smaller bitch. Today for the first time they were extremely agressive and i found it almost impossible to seperate them. The bigger pup actually drew blood form the smaller one. I have them both in separate crates that i have now moved to separate areas of the house. I only give them attention when i want to and i totally ignore crying in the crate and will only let them out when they are quiet. I feed them in separate areas although at the same time but am wondering whether i should feed the more dominant first. I dont allow them to be picked up and on the furniture. Im trying hard to establish rules but dont know where to go with this never having seen it before. They really were very agressive for small pups .The 2 older dogs play no part in the disipline of the younger ones.Im disappointed becasue they had been playing so well. They had their first vaccinations yesterday which is the only thing that was different in their normal routine. The smaller pup is now very timid and trying to hide under the setee . So how do i now divide my attention between the two.Im very keen to get this sorted as soon as possible. If i cant then i will seek some outside help. I want my dogs to be happy and well socialised

To be honest it sounds as if you need to rehome one of them whilst they're still young enough to be desirable and before they go themselves serious psychological harm.

Sorry to hear this and it's very young for this to be happening - it illustrates the problems of keeping two pups.  To be honest if they were mine I'd be thinking of keeping just one - the other is still young enough to go to a new home as a young pup.  Probably better now, than at 8months old when they still probably wont get on :-(

Well they could sort themselves out but this does not bode well particularly if they are bitches. This reaction will get worse when you start one on one training and exercising them one at a time. Personally I would be re-thinking the keeping of two and perhaps selling one of the pups whilst they are still young.

EDIT: sorry JG and Penny posted whilst I typed.

Looks like the three of us are in agreement, we must have all posted at the same time :-)

Looks like the three of us are in agreement, we must have all posted at the same time :-)

Having had bitch on bitch problems myself I hate to think what will happen (if they are both bitches) when one or the other comes into their first season it could well become a blood bath. On the other hand if they are dog and bitch the first season could be the time hostilities cease, but I would not be waiting any longer I would be selling one of them on now.

I also agree, one needs to go............ sorry.

This is what pups do, their play is all about testing and weighing each other up the play fighting gets more and more serious, when pups get over 8 weeks they play fight mighty hard with each other particularly if you have a more dominant character who may well have gone on to be an alpha once mature.

It could sort out if the weaker gives in all the time and becomes submissive but she will forever be put in her place for the next 2yrs or so, until the bigger bitch feels in charge.

If the more submissive is in another home she would grow up to be a more confident dog and come into her own, if left with the dominant larger bitch she will have no choice but to become bottom of the pecking ladder.

The other dogs are not getting involved as they allow pups to sort themselves out first, the more dominant may well then be the same with any mature bitches you have at home as she grows if you have no other dominant characters to put her in her place.

Keeping two pups is always a lot of hard work, two bitches is very testy sometimes it can work if you put the hard work in and train them separately with a lot of time spent alas, if the characters do not compliment it can turn to hell on earth. This looks like it will go that way, unfortunately it is not always foreseeable but as the breeder you have more access to weighing up the pups characters.

I really, really would re-home one of them, it is your decision which.

>I only give them attention when i want to and i totally ignore crying in the crate and will only let them out when they are quiet

Well, I'm sorry folks, but at 9 weeks I consider the lack of attention a very sad state of affairs.  This is such a crucial age, and ignoring at this age is too extreme IMHO.

Ditto.

I had this in my last litter of Papillons, never seen it before -it was really bad, drew blood, and it was between the biggest dog and the only bitch. I don't normally let Papillon pups go until 12-14 weeks but because of this let the dog go at 10 weeks. Both this dog and this bitch are now adult and very friendly and outgoing and indeed the dog regularly comes to visit and they get on just fine -but it was VITAL that they did not stay living together as pups as the situation would not have worked out as well as it did had they not been split up.

Not letting them on the furniture will make no difference to anything -other than keeping the furniture a bit cleaner perhaps.

I presume you still have their dam, did she not keep order within the litter or intervene now between the pair? These 2 have had their litter mates leave in the past week so that is a big upheaval for them to suddenly be on their own, did the bigger pup show any really rough play before this week? I don't think seperating them to different rooms will help, they need to see each other and that they are not missing out on anything, they are only 9 weeks old you should be able to discipline them and intervene before it gets into a full on fight,never leave them alone together and praise them when they behave nicely and give a high value treat, cheese works well here.

I have had problems in the past between bitches, they lived together for the first 6 months of the younger ones life then she came to me, 10 months later the other one joined us and everything was great, the younger one was top dog and the other bitch and my male were happy to fall into line with this, 18 months later the older bitch had pups[ I had failed to get the younger one pregnant]initially everything went on as normal then one day they started fighting and it was in ernest, the only blood spilt was mine so I seperated them into a crate with a divider so they could see that neither was getting preferential treatment, things went back to normal again but I was for ever wary especially when they were due in season, they had 3 flare ups and it was the older bitch starting the fights but neither bitch picked on the daughter of the older bitch just on each other, I hope never to be in that position again, I have 2 bitches here now, one is 15 months old and the other one 3 last Xmas, thus far everything has been fine, I worry that things will change when the younger one has pups next year, at the present no one seems to be acting top dog but that may change.

I hope you can sort them out or else you are going to have to rehome one of them for your own sanity if nothing else.

they are only 9 weeks old you should be able to discipline them and intervene before it gets into a full on fight,

What you say sounds logical but the smaller pup is already hiding away and is frightened of the other - this is no good at all and needs to be deal with now if this smaller pup is to have any chance to grow up to lead a happy normal life. IMO separation is the only answer either by the use of kennels or to re-home one of this pair. They can't be left to sort it our or you will finish with one that is an aggressive bully and the other (if not killed) a terrified adult.

I agree, please please rehome one of them - they are still puppies and young enough to be 'desirable' in the eyes of a buyer.  (Sad, but most people want a pup and it is harder to sell an older dog.)

It really is a bad idea to keep 2 puppies of the same age; I run training classes and we don't allow 2 puppies from the same home in class together.  They are so distracted by each other, they get distressed if they're not together, they ignore the other puppies in the room and they bond with each other rather than with the human handler.  They have strong feelings for each other - whether loving or hating each other!  We have people bring pups to different classes, if they must have 2 pups at once, and will always try to discourage people having 2. 

You don't say what breed they are, or (I think?) what sex they are. 

Before permanent harm is done (psychologically speaking, I mean), please rehome one of them.  It is probably best to rehome the more confident one, so that the more timid one can remain in the familiar environment.

She mentioned smaller bitch so we presume they are both bitches.