With the dogs barking furiously from within their cages on the trolley at everyone they pass? 

I use a trolley but I always am so careful, there is good and bad in all I get annoyed when people let their big dogs trip me up, it's not so much the things we use it's mainly the idiots using them :-D

> With the dogs barking furiously from within their cages on the trolley at everyone they pass?

In case this is for me...no, mine are entirely silent.

That's good to hear. :-) So many aren't.

Have to say I use a trolley to carry my table,picnic,bags etc but all my OES get suited and booted (when it's wet) and enjoy the walk in. Always good to get them warmed up and toiletted after the journey. Having been run over by others with trollies I'm always very considerate and aware of other dogs/people/trade stands etc...unlike many others I'm sad to say...

Some people were like road hogs today yes!! We had a procession, me in front clearing people and saying excuse me, OH with trolley, mum behind to check we were ok that end and apologise for getting in the way!

I have to agree that without a trolley I'd be lost, I don't spent three hours blowdrying and prepping to walk my bitch through a showground that was reported to be so muddy and wet yesterday.

Edited to add; just saw the barking in trolleys, that is really sad, and it unnerves my bitch if we're benched beside one that won't stop barking. I'm very very lucky and have a silent Schnauzer who just sleeps in her crate, we were very lucky today too as the dogs beside us were fast asleep!

Yes my dogs have legs and enjoy ru ning around in mud and puddles most days. As a long coated natural breed there's no way that they r going to do that on show day. I also take chairs and food for the dat. There's no way that I can chuck that and my dogs over my shoulder....

Oh and my dogs are quiet in there too not like some of the dogs on the benches wbo bark and lunge at you as you pass by.

My dogs are also long coated and so have appropriate suits for them to wear in rainy show conditions, it seemed very unfair yesterday with the limited amount of space that such a lot of it was taken up with massive trolley and also grooming tables for those dogs who manage to grow coat on the drive to the show !!! Sometimes a little Thought is needed !!! I needed to go to secs office and it was nightmare working my way thru trolleys,cages, grooming tables xx

It was even worse when my youngster threw up in one of the crowded gangways on arrival, as getting to the ring was such a nightmare, and a tight lead with me trying to get through with bags, chair etc. just caused her to choke and subsequently puke! She's still not a good traveler so was probably still a bit unsettled which didn't help. Only one kind lady helped me by eventually taking hold of Mo while I attempted to clear it up with baby wipes. Everyone else just carried on barging through with no consideration whatsoever.

Oh pedlee, poor you.

I think the moral could be is that there is no right or wrong way of showing dogs and all that goes with it, crate, no crates etc etc.....only an inconsiderate and rude minority people, which, unfortunately, you get in all walks of life.  Most people I would say are decent however it always tend to be the idiots that stick in your mind (just wish they would get stuck in the mud sometimes as well !!!)

Wasn't at EoE but it appears that the cttee did as good a job as they could in the circs.

Well done to all those who got results, despite the problems.

> barging through with no consideration whatsoever

It was a nightmare Friday, mainly because of the organisers rearranging the rings and some exhibitors just could not cope with the change.  I show abroad and the benching is either metal cages in rows which you claim (or reserve), or people take their own.  Because that is the norm it is organised, people set up in rows, unlike here.  They give each other space, they ask if it is OK to set up by you, and unlike here they do not set their paraphernalia up right on top of your crate door making it impossible to get a dog out!  Before anyone yells "they have lower entries" yes at some shows, but these show are 2 days not 3 or 4 and so the average per day is the same or a little lower and they are in a smaller venue sq ft wise.  WDS Paris and the chaos of that show aside there is more consideration for fellow exhibitors.  I have had people here putting coffee cups on my crates (full of coffee) and spilling them all over the crate and not even an apology, people leaning on my large soft crates so they start to collapse.  Dogs peeing all over the crates (usually Elkhounds and Beagles).  Oh and many foreign shows additional grooming tables are banned, they put a cover on top of their metal crates for those breeds groomed on a table.  Unlike here where last year someone set up a grooming table IN the entrance to our ring at one show with their small terriers even though their ring was 2 over but already packed with other grooming tables.

Went to EoE yesterday, committee should be applauded for trying their best to keep the show on but if I had known it was to be that mad I wouldn't have travelled 3 hours. It was packed, we couldn't set up a crate ring side (even though I had one and was there at 7 am) as the Dalmatian ring was central to the entry door with only one ringside for viewing/getting your dogs into the ring and on that 1 side we had the benching people (6 of them at 1 point) set up giving out everyone new number cards and 2 young girls from pet plan getting people to fill in a form for a competition so LOTS of congestion....my girl got set on by another dog as it was squeezed past us, run over by a trolly, stood on by a human and had a bowl of water that was on top of someone's crate knocked over her. (everyone was apologetic but it didn't help with my stress levels) 
She won her class but I still wouldn't have bothered if I had a crystal ball!
Paula

Looks like me and the pup made a lucky escape, he manage to go nuts and hurt himself, so was lame last night, so for me that made the decision for me about if I was or wasn't going today.  I was probably not going to attend due to not wanting to freak him out in the chaos that it sounds like and carrying him everywhere wouldn't have been ideal.  Hopefully nice and sunny for next weekend instead.  Hope everyone manages to get home reasonably clean and dry today.  Weather looks more promising.

Paula, that sounds like hell. :-( Thank goodness there wasn't an emergency that needed an immediate evacuation. Lives could have been lost.

>Thank goodness there wasn't an emergency that needed an immediate evacuation. Lives could have been lost.>

Yes I did think that, it took us 10 mins to get out of the door when we decided that we didn't want our girl crated inside. :-(
Paula

The committee had done a fabulous job, no complaints there, just selfish people with crates AND tables, who were interested in making sure they got maximum room and bugger the rest, just takes bit of thought and we all be happy, if it nice sunny day and space isn't an issue go for it and take all your extras, but when weather and space are an issue then give consideration for others ! At the end of the day we all paid same entry fee xx

What's wrong with having a crate and a table? I had both yesterday and we still took up minimal space, my crate sat under my table with my bags, food, and grooming holdall was on top of the table so we were trying hard to be considerate. We also got there at about quarter to 7am and it was clear even then that there was just not enough room in there to hold everyone.

You were obviously one of the few who thought of others, there crates, with tables next to them, fold up chairs in front of the tables !! We had show bags on our backs and dogs on leads and yes they have got long pale coloured coats , I suppose we will never agree, but please please crate and table people spare a thought for us regular guys who trim our dogs before we come !!!

Yes but the same can be said when I try to get round the large dog rings and your falling over people with their 3 dogs taking up all the room!
As has been said there is good and bad in all and grey ruin it for everyone else :-(  I couldn't count how many full poo bags were left in the venue, why if you go the trouble of picking it up why not put it in the bin?? I take mine home if I cent find one.

It makes me laugh in my breed the number of people who bring grooming tables, set them up and then never used them and just take their dog straight into the ring.!. I have a short coated breed that needs probably 10-20 mins to get ready on the day so I benefit by asking if I can use other peoples grooming tables.!. They always say yes, but otherwise I would just prepare my dogs on the floor no problem. And I do offer to groom their dogs for them which they accept gratefully.

Sounds like a good trade to me Tigran, and kind of you to offer to other exhibitors.

> Yes but the same can be said when I try to get round the large dog rings and your falling over people with their 3 dogs taking up all the room

There will never be a perfect solution to suit everyone.  Dogs lounging on the floor spread out take up far more room than a crate that would accomodate them!  And at least in a crate no one is going to stand on them (as does happen).  One of my pet hates is people ringside with lounging dogs that are well INTO the ring in use.

It's not the tables that have crates under them but the trolley crate the dog arrives in, then they set up another crate for it for the duration, then out comes a grooming table with enough space hogged around it so they can do all side of the dog without turning it around = 1 dog = 3 large items taking up 6 - 9 ft of space in a row???  This is just plain inconsiderate of all the other exhibitors, as are the people who let their dogs lie across the aisles of the benching so you have to step over them with your dogs to get to your benching and cannot get even a small basket trolley by them (now if they won't fit on the bench again a crate takes up less room than a lounging dog), oh and the chairs and picnic tables too in the aisles - no officials ever make them move.  Yet you put a mid size crate 1 inch out of line and you are banished to Siberia.

Need a 'like' on your post Tooolz - still remember Henry's 2nd show before I got all the crate, trolley, other paraphenalia. Walked him in on a wet day and he was FILTHY underneath!!

do you think it would be like this if benching eventually went from all shows ?
people willynilly just putting their things anywhere and everywhere around the rings and not thinking of other people,
I to do not understand why a dogs feet needs to be trimmed at the show on the table when it could of been done at home before they came, today it happened beside me and then i heard them say make it look like it is natural as the judge does not like the scissored look on their legs.

> do you think it would be like this if benching eventually went from all shows ?
> people willynilly just putting their things anywhere and everywhere around the rings and not thinking of other people,
>

Yes, it already happens regularly with people who choose not to use their benching or spreading around adjoining rings with their dogs.

We were in the same ring as last year at Windsor, the shady side of our ring was occupied by a breed in the adjacent ring which meant we had to stay out in the heat, with our dogs, as benches were too far to change dogs.  Just as well we had a small entry.

By far the worst3 breeds i see for this are Poodles, Shih Tzu and Min Shnauzers, the way i saw some of the poodle exhibitors treat their dogs yesterday like pieces of meat and turn them round by neck and tail, its no wonder showing gets a bad rap :(

Edited to add, i know alot of poodle breeders adore their dogs i am not saying it is all that do it but the few that do ruin it for the rest.

Mmm...before I get shot down in flames, I traveled to a show with a poodle exhibitor once and we had to get there really early as she had to trim her dog again, had clippers etc, surely if it is done the night before cannot think that it needs to be done again.?. Perhaps some poodle people can enlighten me...

The majority of the shows in the States are unbenched. They have large designated areas for crates and grooming tables, with designated aisles and plenty of free space around the rings. Show officials ensure that people aren't putting grooming equipment and crates in areas they shouldn't be in.

I have Scottish Terriers, a breed that you never really stop grooming. Just when you think you've got everything just right, the dog will wake up in the morning with a lump in his topline or a section of his furnishings that flies in a weird direction when he moves. No matter how many times you've stood the dog in front of the mirror or gaited the dog down and back in the kitchen the night before, some grooming flaw will invariably appear about an hour before you go in the ring. Kneeling on the ground or trying to stand the dog on top of a crate the size of a cat carrier will only result in back pain and/or making the grooming situation worse. So for my breed, grooming tables and grooming on the day of the show are absolutely necessary.

Plus, if I have clients that I'm meeting at a show, I generally need to touch up the grooming before we go in the ring. Since they live with their owners, I can't always get to the dog a few days/the night before and I never really know what state the dog's feet/ears/etc. will be in when they get to the show.

>do you think it would be like this if benching eventually went from all shows ?
>people willynilly just putting their things anywhere and everywhere around the rings and not thinking of other people,

Yes. :-( Benching gives everyone a defined space and clear gangways for quick safe evacuation in case of an emergency. It's so much quicker to unclip a benching chain than undo a cage in a fire! A free-for-all just creates avoidable stress and tension as well as a potentially very dangerous environment.

> A free-for-all just creates avoidable stress and tension as well as a potentially very dangerous environment.

So just what is the situation with health and safety at these events? If there had have been an emergency yesterday God only knows how we'd all have got out safely.....

we would not of got out yesterday there would of been some deaths i know that is horrible to say but it was chaos yesterday

I have to say it was a case of extremes today (from my point of view anyway). The area up where we were was very neatly organised into rows by the exhibitors themselves as they arrived - a whole selection of 'groomed' breeds such as my OES and other breeds in crates co-habited safely and sensibly, and many comments were passed about how much lovelier this was than benching.  However, the other end of the arena was horrendous - crates, tables, sprawled dogs and large groups of chatting people (who didnt even seem to be watching what was happening in the rings) completely blocked the gangways.  Getting in and out for dog toilet breaks and to visit the stands was very difficult and I agree I think there could have been problems in an evacuation.  No, it wasn't perfect but I think credit has to go to the committee for doing such a good job at keeping the show going in very difficult circumstances.

> Yes. :-( Benching gives everyone a defined space and clear gangways for quick safe evacuation in case of an emergency. It's so much quicker to unclip a benching chain than undo a cage in a fire!

You obviously have never been benched at shows like SKC, Birmingham National, Richmond, Windsor, Leeds, WKC and have your benching at the far end of the aisle, adjoining the tent wall.  Your only access back outside is through the row of benching 10 - 20 benches, aisles often crammed with chairs, bags, belongings. There is no way on earth you could get out quickly, tents go up in flames like tinder and collapse, the poles will stay but the canvas drops in sections.  Even if the aisle was blocked could you honestly climb over the benching with your dogs to find a safe route?  Most people would struggle to climb over the benching without a dog.  At least with crates you could push your way past them, over them.  In a fire a dog on a benching chain would probably strangle itself before you could release it.  In a crate mine always have their slip leads on, one clip to undo or side of the flap to unzip, quick and easy.  I was the H&S officer for 10 years at a large business which included organising outdoor events, the layouts of tented benching at shows in the UK has always been an accident waiting to happen.

With all the negativity that we face from those who would like to see an end to dog shows,I really think showing is doomed if we start to squabble amongst ourselves

I just think we all need to be considerate of others and not be too quick to critiscise. Conditions were not ideal but the show committee did a sterling job in making the best of difficult circumstances out of their hands.

>only access back outside is through the row of benching 10 - 20 benches, aisles often crammed with chairs, bags, belongings.

That's as unacceptable as crates and grooming tables in the aisles. There's room under benches for bags and folding chairs (I put mine under so I know it's true!) when you have to leave your bench for any reason.

Perhaps the solution is to do away with benching and instead  allocated each exhibitor  a certain amount of floor space around the ringsides - this could be marked off with tape according to breed size and the number of dogs they have entered - your ring number would identify which area was yours ( much like benching does now) but NO other cages, tables, trollies etc would be allowed to be set up outside of 'your' area. this  would ensure that we all get a fair amount of space, that gangways were not blocked and that there is room left for those wanting to watch their breeds - I too applaud the E of E committee for doing a great job in difficult circumstances but was appalled by the selfishness of some exhibitors who came loaded with trollies, cages and grooming tables and set up camp leaving little room for others  despite knowing that all the rings had been moved inside and  how restricted the space was likely to be.

Yvonne

Wasn't at the show but would have hated it!  Just want to comment on grooming v showing, think too many people forget it should be about the construction of the dog......

>allocated each exhibitor  a certain amount of floor space around the ringsides - this could be marked off with tape according to breed size and the number of dogs they have entered -

Don't you think that would be much more time-consuming and therefore more expensive (thinking of the manhours involved) than benching?

Having been at E of E for all three days I do have to say it was an eye opener, different breeds a totally different attitude. Most accepted the situation and made the best of it, even enjoying it and others giving no consideration to their fellows what-so-ever and allowing themselves or dogs to block the way for everyone else.

Saw some tempers flair, saw one committee member unwell and having to be taken outside in the rain for some fresh air however had the dog show committee been allowed just a little more room and had they known that judging would be inside I am sure that it could have been organised and run successfully without benching the problem being the lack of room, they were not allocated enough and I think there would have been problems of space even if it had been bright sun.

The rain did not just cause the show to have to move into an inadequate size building but everyone was wet, the dogs were wet and some muddy, equipment was wet and the toilets sewerage system could not cope with the amount of water or number of people nor the cleaning staff with the amount of water on the floor although they tried very hard. In general the show continued in a satisfactory way and if you wanted you could show your dog and get your result. Spectators got a raw deal (there really was not spare space) but the alternative was to call the show off and that would have penalised the majority of the exhibitors that went, showed and in general made the best of things, those who stayed away made that decision and those who went to moan no doubt enjoyed themselves as well.

Me well I would say well done to the committee, they made the impossible possible and they must be so very stressed out by now I hope they recover and continue serving us performing a service that they do for other dog owners for no reward except satisfaction of a job well done and a smile of thanks, I do hope they feel a sense of achievement this morning and not as some would wish a sense of failure.

Don't you think that would be much more time-consuming and therefore more expensive (thinking of the manhours involved) than benching?

no more than setting up benches does currently- it seems to me that today's exhibitors want to have their dogs crated round the ringside along with their bags/chairs and other equipment and that's fair enough but our current system does not allow enough room for everyone to do this - so we have the stupid situation of vast amounts of room taken up with empty benching and exhibitors and their dogs crammed in round a ringside not planned to take the 'stuff' that most folk now take with them  - surely if we used the benching halls as ring space with plenty of room around them for allocated individual exhibitor spaces this would meet what most folk want without costing a penny extra to the organisers ? -

Yvonne

i was at e of e yesterday and i have to say havent enjoyed a show more this year, well doone to all the committee for doing there best.
everyone in my breed were helping each other to find space and set up, people stayed round the ring and most enjoyed there day. rings were easy to find and information was available from committee members re ring numbers etc.
dog got a little wet / muddy going in but we soon had them dryed off and they seemed happyer in there crates than they do on the benching ( which i do use ). at most shows.

Trollies are a pain in the wherever. They were never needed in 'the old days' so why are they needed now?

Well I for one could never show more than one toydog if I had to carry them. You DON'T spend hours grooming and bathing only to have dogs with long white coat an inch off the ground walk through the mud to get inside the show -then you've thrown your money away and might as well stay at home.

- surely if we used the benching halls as ring space with plenty of room around them for allocated individual exhibitor spaces this would meet what most folk want without costing a penny extra to the organisers ? -

Exactly!! You don't see benching at foreign shows yet other countries manage!

>You don't see benching at foreign shows yet other countries manage!

I'm sure it was you who said how chaotic and disorganised the World Show was, with nobody knowing where they were meant to be and crates in the way all over the place ... perhaps it was someone else.

Maybe there could be a trolley park near the entrance where they could be safely left until needed to transport the dogs back to the car park.

I think some shows get benching right, I just don't like the ones miles away or in another building, did anyone go southern counties?
They had in and out tent and the main walkway was next to the rings then the benching at the back.  There was areas you could set up on the pathways out if you really wanted too but I think the design forced people to use the benching.  Then there was announcements about keeping gangways clear between benches and a fire officer did the rounds on the day I was there with a committee member and one person with a very big trolley park in a benching aisle was told to move it now to the grooming area.  Some people with fluffy dogs setup at the end of benches instead of the grooming area but weren't in the way.  So at that show apart from the indoor part of the ring size being a touch small I thought it was well planned.

On th flip side the houndshow at staffs is rubbish as a setup(or was when i used to attend) rings lovely and large but benching up in the shed you couldn't hear announcements up there or anything so everyone had to camp down at ringside.  We started phoning people's mobiles that had a lot of dogs to let them know there class was next.  Real shame as other indoor shows held there are laid out lovely.  And yes I tell the committee if I do or don't like the layout, I am sure most don't care about my feedback but I consider it that I have at least tried.

We do a few Open shows at the moment and manage just fine without benching there too, usually people do block you in a bit but we all manage.

Jeangenie, the Westminster Kennel Club dog show in New York City is benched and an absolute nightmare as well. They have a designated grooming area away from the benches and nothing is permitted to be blocking the aisles. Yet with the number of people and dogs, it's hot as anything, impossible to navigate and heaven forbid there should ever be a fire. I think it has less to do with benches vs. no benches so much as it does the overall organisation of the show. A well-organised unbenched show is not chaotic at all. There are plenty of free aisles between crates and tables and the areas around the ring are completely clear except for exhibitors and spectators.

The only unbenched shows I've been to are open shows, and they're chaos. Getting across the hall to your ring is difficult to say the least when you just have a bag and your dog - what starts off as an 8-foot gangway ends up about 2 feet wide maximum when there are grooming tables and trolleys piled with cages on either side.

Most of the open shows I've been to have far too little designated space for crates and grooming, or they put the grooming area in a really inconvenient place. Because everyone brings crates and tables in the States, the unbenched shows tend to be much more organised in terms of the size and location of the grooming areas. That being said, they also tend to draw a larger entry and are held at larger venues than UK open shows.