Can I ask those of you that show and breed. If you only breed for your next 'hopefully champion', do you only breed a litter when you want your next dog, say once a year, once ever two years etc. (I don't know how often, just making an assumption) or do you breed several litters a year in the hope that one of the litters will produce such a prospective show/champion? I suppose that I am asking, if a breeder states that he only breeds for his next champion and then breeds 4 litters of pure bred puppies and 3 litters of x bred puppies, would you say that he is breeding for profit or for love of the breed and his next show dog?

>do you only breed a litter when you want your next dog, say once a year, once ever two years etc.

Personally it's about once every 4 or 5 years.

>if a breeder states that he only breeds for his next champion and then breeds 4 litters of pure bred puppies and 3 litters of x bred puppies

I'd say he's a puppy farmer.

What is the brewers track record in showing ?

Do they have a website as looking at that often gives some quite good pointers on what type of breeder they are:-)

IMO Nobody who loves their own breed and is breeding to the very best standards would ever even contemplate crossing with an other breed.
I know there have been exemptions in the case of Dalmations in order to produce dogs clear of certain conditions, but in the main breeders would want to keep the breed pure.
I started breeding and showing dogs in 1978 and to date I have bred 5 litters in total.

Sorry should have said breeder

I have bred 8 litters in 10 years, one of which was an accident -and I have been called a puppy farmer by somebody for having had so many! My next large breed litter will be in 2014 which means it will have been 4 years in between the last two. I have at least 2 years in between large breed litters, one in between toys (because it is much easier in every way with toys, not just rearing a litter and finding good homes, but TRAINING the one kept) and yes only breed if I am able to keep one. Sometimes you HAVE to breed even if you don't really desperately NEED another pup, as otherwise a bitch may be too old for a first litter (or even last), but I'd still never breed without the intent of getting one to keep for showing.

Website was impressive and when I contacted him he stated that he did not breed for profit, he groomed dogs as a living. Can't comment on this - may or may not. He only bred when he wanted his next champion but he had two purebred litters to choose from, one a month older than the other, he also had another litter due today. I have also seen advertised from the same guy 2 litters of crosses between two of the breeds that he shows, on different websites I assume to confuse prospective buyers.

I have been over the weekend to see what I believe to be a reputable breeder and have now booked a puppy. When I commented upon the person under discussion she rolled her eyes and made a few choice comments about him, particularly to take with a pinch of salt what may be on his KC reg papers regarding the correct sire and dam.

Yes  the websites are often impressive :-)

Sounds like you have made the right choice :-)

What breed are you getting ?

" He only bred when he wanted his next champion "

Just out of interest, do exhibitors really set the stakes this high when planning a litter?
I find it hard to believe, especially coming from someone who cross breeds!

I think you need to take his reason with a bucket load of salt :-)

I have owned my breed since 1987 and in that time I have bred 3 litters, I only breed when I wanted to keep something for myself.  From each litter I have bred a Show Champion bitch (One also having won her JW when it was the hardest way possible & another with her ShCM, the only bitch in the breed to have won this too) and also a RCC in each litter too (2 x dogs & 1 x bitch) so I do aim high when I breed.  I was always told you are breeding to improve on the generation before.

If I were looking for a pup in my breed, I would be the sort of person I would be likely to buy from.

> Just out of interest, do exhibitors really set the stakes this high when planning a litter?

Yes I do.

I like to have 18 months between my exhibits ideally - but with breeding my bitches much later for health reasons, I find Im having one litter, (perhaps two) a year so as to avoid not having a pup to keep from each of my bitches.

" I was always told you are breeding to improve on the generation before"

Well, yes, of course, that is what I have always been told and try to do myself ;-) But I do believe that only those most successful exhibitors, breeders whom I would consider experts in their breed, could be aiming to breed their next champion with each and every litter. Clearly, you and tooolz fall into this category.
I would imagine that your average exhibitor is just aiming to do well at shows, but not necessarily be expecting each and every dog or bitch they keep to end up a CH.

The breeder in question is just trying to make himself sound impressive to potential puppy buyers. Otherwise, he wouldn't be cross breeding.

>Just out of interest, do exhibitors really set the stakes this high when planning a litter?

We / they'd all like to, but not everyone is that lucky! :-D The breeder mentioned in the OP's post however sounds like a puppy farmer in disguise.

Every litter you have no matter how few, ought to be better than the last.....thats the theory but it doesnt always work!! Between my mother & I, in 47 years of owning the breed, have had 10 litters. Every time we have tried to improve on the previous litter. I would have thought that most who breed whom show would like a champion(or more) in every litter??

> He only bred when he wanted his next champion but

and I wonder how many champions he has bred :)
Maybe it takes 10 litters of pups to breed 1 champion...and few mixed litters to fund the lifestyle...

You have definately made the right choice not going for a puppy from them.

I only breed to keep one back for myself and so far time between each litter has varied, my first litter was 2008, pick bitch went to the dams breeder,she has been shown and placed each time,her daughter is now being shown,the second bitch didn't turn out as expected, the male I kept, my second litter 2010 were all males and went to pet homes, my third litter was last summer and no pups born alive, those 2 bitches are now retired.

My next litter I hope to have next Spring or there abouts from a bitch I bought in at 10 months old earlier this year, I was going to get her as a young pup but the timing was wrong and she went to another breeder who then decided to down size and she went back to her breeder who rang me, fate decided she should have been here.

You have to aim high in the hopes that you get somewhere near those expectations.

The breeder in the OP is spinning a fine yarn, who does he think he is kidding?

"I would have thought that most who breed whom show would like a champion(or more) in every litter??"

Of course they would - in an ideal world. I think the point I was trying to make was that the breeder in question had implied to the OP that every litter produces a CH and I am sure that even the top breeders out there do not regard this as a foregone conclusion!

I suppose breed comes into play here too... with a breed like mine I would say it was a far greater challenge to make a dog or bitch up to a Champion than in a much rarer breed,  where competition is on a much smaller scale. Would be interested to know the breed.

If you mean Tooolz, Cavlover, she's in our breed too. And I can attest that her dogs are absolutely gorgeous! If anyone can breed a champion or at least Crufts qualifier, or more than one, in each litter, she can!

I am actually having a dilemma myself, I just cant keep a pup every 2/3 years from my line as I have a relatively long lived breed and would mean I end up with literally a house full of dogs! My idea was to breed from my young girl (when she is old enough) and not keep a pup, then breed from her 2/3 years later an keep a pup...the reason being that she needs the first litter as otherwise she would be too old for the second litter to be her first (hope this makes sense!) but I'm slightly put off at the thought of breeding and not keeping one for myself...what do others think?

Drover, are you friends with someone else in the breed who you could keep a pup on co ownership with? That seems to be the way things are going, from what I can see, with good breeders who can't keep a lot of dogs in their own home but still want to own/retain some control over their pups.

No, LucyDogs, I am referring to the dubious breeder mentioned by the OP !!!

I know Tooolz has the most stunning of cavaliers :-)  That was never in question. ;-)

Drover, that is exactly how I plan to do it. I now have 6 dogs, one is only 8 weeks, one nearly two and half (never been bred from yet), but the other 4  have either had one or two litters and so are retired. It isn't cast in stone though, so tell yourself you will only keep from the second litter, but if there is definitely something worth keeping in the first, well, you won't let it go! I don't think I could ever plan a litter, with no intention of keeping anything back to be honest, but the sensible thing would be to keep from a second litter, thereby spreading them out.

> I am actually having a dilemma myself, I just cant keep a pup every 2/3 years from my line as I have a relatively long lived breed and would mean I end up with literally a house full of dogs! My idea was to breed from my young girl (when she is old enough) and not keep a pup, then breed from her 2/3 years later an keep a pup...the reason being that she needs the first litter as otherwise she would be too old for the second litter to be her first (hope this makes sense!) but I'm slightly put off at the thought of breeding and not keeping one for myself...what do others think?

This is exactly the situation many people face.

My view is that I breed every litter as if I was going to include them in future breeding plans, this may mean placing the best in homes where they may in turn be available to be bred from, to add to the breeds gene pool.  This is especially true in a numerically small breed.

It is totally unpractical to insist that every one only breeds when they want to keep one themselves.

How do other new people get started in your breed if this was the universal view.  it would also mean that any new breeders/exhibitors would start with litter mates of the breeder, thus not expanding the gene pool.

I have bred on average a litter a year, 19 litters, but have kept 8 puppies.  In other litters I have bred dogs that have contributed to other breeders efforts here and abroad and produced some winners for them.  I have also used a dog I bred at stud myself and also plan to use offspring of another.

Especially in numerically small breed one needs to look at the bigger picture of the effect of ones breeding plans on the breed as a whole, and on ones future plans.

It is totally unpractical to insist that every one only breeds when they want to keep one themselves.

But likewise it is just as impractical to expect to be ABLE to sell every puppy in a litter in some breeds, no matter how many people on your waiting list. In my main breed you have to count on keeping 2 or even 3 and this is what most breeders end up having to do. I would so LOVE to only keep one, but somehow I doubt that will ever happen -unless I got lucky and ended up with a small litter of perhaps just 6 or so. So even if you were planning to take a litter and not keep a pup, to for instance make sure the bitch had one before too old for the first time, it might not end up that way at all. A friend of mine is expecting  a litter, similar reasons, she is not planning to keep one but fully expects she may have to keep several. After all, if the right homes don't appear, there is no other option, and you can never be 100 % certain before the mating takes place that the buyers will not drop out. Hence I'd never breed a litter unless I knew I COULD keep pups.

Edited to add this: I have bred on average a litter a year, 19 litters, but have kept 8 puppies.

I can't see that being possible in my breed. Taking my main breed, in just 5 litters I have had to keep 10.

That's exactly my plan Drover - breed at 3 years old, sell, see how they look, either repeat mating or find different stud dog, breed again 2/3 years later and keep one. Of course this relies on there always being a bitch good enough to show and breed from in my second litter, which could be tricky..... :-)

My only real worry is that if in hindsight, the bitch had produced a better quality pup in the first litter than in the second ...I would be kicking myself!

Yes, same here. But it can't be helped - I'm finding the 4 I have at the moment quite enough to be going on with! Maybe in 4 or 5 years when the 2 youngsters are more sensible.... And unlike many breeders, I would be happy to have someone show a nice dog or bitch of my breeding, if and when I produce one!

Every mating is a mystery.
But...sticking to the old adage of 'buy the best - breed it to the best - then keep the best' works...I can vouch for that.

Most serious breeders and exhibitors indend to keep one from every litter Im sure, but it doesnt always work out that way. To follow the old  adage you are more likely to get a puppy you just cant part with.

The problem, as I see it, is...if you drop this standard because you dont intend to keep one, "so why bother driving all that way etc etc" ....drops the quality in the long run.

Ive let my pick of litter go only once, by choice 'to help a newcomer out'...never again.

What an interesing thread, i now understand :)
I have my girl in season atm and only a week ago was asked and not understood why i was not having another litter. I have a 14mth old here out of her already and dont want them too close in age. Im also busy in the autumn showing her and her dad which at the end of the yr i will retire him. So next year is more suited to me to have a litter and i will keep a bitch if there is one, after that i wont need nothing else from her. I also bred my first litter when i wasnt too desperate for another dog but had to as my bitch was 4 at the time.
Another thing what some breeders do in my breed is have a sibling bitch, so if one being shown doesnt take or come in season at the right time they have the other one, and say that the 'sibling bitch' often produces better puppies, im not experienced to know about that though.

I dont have room for sibling bitches. Mine must all show and do well or I wont breed from them.

We were having this conversation at a show recently and commenting on this 'two strings' method. Trouble is, even if a stud dog is stunning I wouldnt want him to be from the 'ugly sister'...sure as eggs youd get his mothers looks rather than his aunties :-(

> But likewise it is just as impractical to expect to be ABLE to sell every puppy in a litter in some breeds,

That's exactly the point, some breeds have far more specialist needs and do require more than an average owner, to be able to fit into a home.  Fortunately most breeds are adaptable enough to fit into pet homes without huge adaptations to owners lifestyle or environment.

This is why the situation with the sled dog breeds being exploited is so sad.

Also why I do not condemn some of the large sight hound breeders who in the past would only breed to firm orders every few years and cull litters down to the number needed, else how would the breed continue to exist?

Fortunately with the small numbers of our breed bred there is no shortage of people looking for one as a pet, though they come in dribs and drabs, so a waiting list is viatl, (it can be feast or famine if there are several litters close together with imbalance in sexes, or none for months).

The main problem is  getting enough people more deeply involved in the breed, and of those that are, for them to be in a position to breed (bearing in mind ongoing responsibilities). 

Sadly if I was unable to home pups (eventually), I would have to stop breeding, as I can only keep 6 maximum, and they tend to live to around 13 1/2.

> unless I got lucky and ended up with a small litter of perhaps just 6 or so.

now fortunately 6 or just under is the average litter size in my breed these days.  Large litters used to be quite common, but not rarely any more.

Thanks, these replies have made me much more content with my breeding plans(and OH is breathing a sigh of relief :-) ). Of course, if I were unable to home any pups then they would stay with me, that is all part of being a responsible breeder, I realise that it is a possibility and its not so much that I cant keep one from every litter, but that I would prefer not to as it would take away alot of attention/training I can put in with each individual.
I'm lucky with my breed, as although extremely numerically high and exploited by byb/farmers breeding them willy nilly, and a huge amount in rescue...the demand for fully health tested breeding, sports lines and especially those with a good competition record is high.

I would also never lower standards because I wont keep one from that litter, I still want my pups to do well in their chosen field and want to keep my reputation too :)

I wouldnt consider a bitch going to someone I know on breeding terms, waters can become murky, and as much as I may know and trust them, no one can look after them like you can (if you see what I mean).

I tend to breed every 2 years to "get my champion". :)