Just had an "interesting" phone call from someone who has been waiting for a puppy as a pet from me for some time. However I had to tell her that I have decided to wait till next year until I have a litter. So I recommended a friend who is currently running on 3 puppies and said that there might be 1 available, however she was not happy as obviously it would not be her first choice of the puppies.I explained that when I have a litter all being well,I will keep the best bitch puppy and almost certainly if there is a good enough dog puppy he will go to a show home, so in fact she will not be able to have first pick of the puppies ever....!!!!.Surely most people feel the same as I only breed if I want something to show and continue my line.

Yes i do agree, many potential owners don't realise that good breeders breed firstly for themselves and their breed, not to supply a market.  Most really do think we breed purely to sell puppies, the only difference between breeders being the level of care and knowledge.

It does help to explain to people looking for a dog purely as a companion what pick of litter means, that you will be choosing what to them are minor or irrelevant things like the particular set of ears/tail idea shape of eye, that slightly shorter back, longer leg, bit more/less substance/bone.

if ti's a breed like mien where all pups look virtually identical to a stranger then this makes them realise that whatever puppy they have will be loved as it's theirs.  No matter where theya re in pickign order i try to steer peopel to the most suitable puppy based on what I have learnt about them.

Few litters have such extremes of character/temperament that would make a particular pup a complete misfit, and any decent breeder would steer potential owner away from such a puppy if it was likely to be a bad match.

it is maybe more difficult with breeds that have various colours or markings (whih often matter less to the breeder,  if acceptable, but matter more to the buyer, as it is the oenly thign they can disitnguish pups by, sometimes even missmarks appeal more, as easily picked out.

Too true that can have the pick of what is available not of those born.

Ah.... but you see we are the minority group of breeders, most of us breed to get a good dog, bitch to continue our lines whether from show or working backgrounds.

The largest percentage of breeders do not show or work their dogs they are from Pet breeders (some, who will do the correct health tests and choose careful lineage etc but not step near a showring) BYB's or Puppy farmers so of course the GP are used to first choice if they have either turned up first or joined a waiting list first no matter who they are or what they have to offer a pup.

So yes, our ways are very unfair and unheard of to many out there. To us it is perfectly natural but to outside they don't always get it.

I've never heard of anyone specifically wanting the pick of the litter unless they are show owners. Had that person requested that of your litter?

Personally I wouldn't want a pup that had been run on, as those early weeks are so precious to me. My current bitch, who is my favourite of all dogs I have ever owned was in fact the only one left in her litter and I wouldn't be without her. we often say how we feel she was destined to be ours, reserved just for us.

Yes, she has requested that she has first choice of any puppies...........

another thing that buyers never understand is that I do not know what is available to buy for some weeks. I often have no idea what I want to keep until they are 6 weeks old and if they are different colours I can't even say whether the colour they are after will be available or not until I have had my pick. The "pet" breeder however just has their litter and often they are for sale within days on the internet as they were always all going to be sold.
I did have some very awkward people phoning this time saying "well do you know of any breeders who actually breed to sell". Actually all my friends are just like me so i guess the answer is "no"

> I did have some very awkward people phoning this time saying "well do you know of any breeders who actually breed to sell". Actually all my friends are just like me so i guess the answer is "no"

and that my dears is the problem in a nutshell. 

How can the standard in dog breeding generally be improved if the public don't actually want it, but moan like billy o if their pup is unhealthy, has a bad/untypical temperament, looks nothing like it's breed (well many wouldn't recognise that fact as they are so used to seeing the puppy farm/BYB produce.

Most of the general public look on dog breeders as a necessary evil at best, so expect to at least have what they want when they want it.

Tigran, well if they always requested pick of the litter then it is obviously important to them. I guess they will wait until they can get this opportunity then.

Well think that they may have a very long wait then.!.We are a vulnerable native breed with very few puppies born each year. As I have already said most if not all the people in my breed will only be having puppies when they want one themselves to keep.

What did they say then when you told them they couldn't have pick of the litter and that you'd be having first pick? They were still prepared to wait for your litter despite that?

Thats odd to me that the prospective buyer doesnt realise the pick would not normally be vailable to them. My breeder knew fro the beginning I was hoping for a bitch and wanted to start showing. I knew she was breeding the litter to have abitch for showing therefore she would obviously have first pick and it wouldnt be for a few weeks. Fine by me. In the end I was actually sure between three bitches which I was going to have as she was still singling hers out right up to two days before I bought Brooke home
Isnt that usual ? I like the idea of having a dog from a breeder who has chosen to breed because she/he wants one for herself for a specific puposeto me thats a good breeder   and not because they required some money.
MInd it can make finding the right breeder harder :) but sure worth the wait in my case I did own up to the fact that to me apart from the obvious, sex , all black fcr pups look very similar to me when young. Infact its still tricky to tell them apart when all together running free imo lol

No they are not prepared to wait till next year, which is why I passed them on to someone who had puppies now...!
However I am glad that they mentioned about having P.O.L rather than later...
I guess in future that I am going to explain to prospective pet owners that this will always be the case.
Must say that in over 40 years of breeding dogs and just 10 litters, this is the first time that I have come across this scenario.

I agree, the people on our list know this and are just happy to be having a puppy at all. My favourite family (are you allowed to have favourites?!) don't even have a preference for sex, they just want the right puppy for them, which is very refreshing from the two line emails I sometimes get that simply say 'Do you have any puppies for sale? We want a bitch.'.

Agree with you.......

I tend to have an idea of what I want then fall in love with one and that's it whether or not it was part of the original plan. I wanted a female kitten from a litter but when I got there I was handed the girl, held her for a while and then handled them all and fell in love with a little boy. Wouldn't be without him now, he's my baby, the only ever cat I've known that loved tummy tickles to the extent of trusting strangers to tickle tummy, snuggles into your neck and is just so soppy. Sometimes buyers think they know what they want, then a member of the litter picks them or they are just drawn to another.

I would never expect the pick of litter though, just happy to choose from what is available of the litter that is right for me.

I've seen in some of the show breeders advertising pick of bitch or dog still available, you wonder why?? I'm guessing they are keeping the opposite sex or the pick isn't one they want to keep? As in others say its the best, it's pick but the breeder doesn't want it..
How do you determine pick? The breeders own choice or what the majority go for? 

>I've seen in some of the show breeders advertising pick of bitch or dog still available, you wonder why??

Most show breeders will want a pick of the litter to go into a show home and will hold back until the right home is available. They are prepared to run it on, and even keep it, rather than see it go into a show home where it's bloodline could be lost.

>How do you determine pick? The breeders own choice or what the majority go for?

I went to look at a litter last year. I wasn't having one, I was doing the temperament test on the whole litter (11 puppies ;-) ) One male stood out in my eyes and I thought that he would be the first to go. Imagine my surprise to still see him there at 13 weeks. He came home with me :-) His litter mates have been shown. 3 girls and 5 boys have qualified for crufts so far, so who is to say which was the pick of the litter? It can be a personal choice because I didn't like one of the brothers at all, yet he has qualified :-)

>How do you determine pick? The breeders own choice or what the majority go for?

Often there are many 'picks' - the one I might think is most suitable for me and is therefore my 'pick' might be different to the ones other people choose.

This is what I was thinking. You hear people say 'I got pick of litter' or ' that person took pick of litter' and I was wondering what made pick... The one who is likely to achieve ch status in the ring? The one which matches the breed standard? The prettiest? Etc etc!!
Or does pick mean 1st choice, as in I had pick of the litter?

I like to think that all my dogs are MY 'pick of the litter' :-)

I currently have pick of a litter. They are a very nice even litter and there are I believe 2-3 others that are behind me waiting for my decision before they can choose their's to go into the ring all being well. So to me it is an order of choosing, personal to the person doing the choosing not necessarily what the breeder would consider the pick.

Prehaps they ment that they wanted to be able to pick there puppy rather then not having a choice as you told them there might be 1 availible from the other breeder.

Surely "pick of litter" can only ever mean one person having the choice of ALL the pups , or all of one sex. Just like not all show judges will ALWAYS have the same dog win, there is no way every potential buyer will pick the same pup. Adverts mentioning things like "This puppy is the pick of the litter" are about as accurate as saying "For sale, car in your favourite colour of blue" -when blue might not be your favourite colour at all.

Quite so Marianne - some people need their minds made up for them, and of course there's the kudos of telling everyone in the park it was the pick of the litter...lol

You don't always need a 'pick of the litter' to do well in a show ring. Nobody wanted my girl because she has a small white patch on her chest, hence she was left with the breeder. I got her at 15 weeks old as a friend for my older girl because my male was dying. When she was 1 year old my friend suggested I'd show her. We had our first show when she was 18 months old and qualified for Crufts. This year she's won her class in every Champ show we've been to [5 out of 5 with raving critiques, including Crufts where she beat 10 other bitches] and 2 reserve tickets :)
Just proves that even 'pet breeders' can breed cracking dogs and you don't always need the pick of the litter.

Only once has a breeder offered me the best of the bitches born because they wanted a dog, in the event there was only one bitch so there was no choice. On other occasions I have been shown what is available and I made my choice from them the breeder not showing me the pups that were spoken for, if there is nothing I like then I do not have one.

>I made my choice from them the breeder not showing me the pups that were spoken for, if there is nothing I like then I do not have one.

That's my way too. :-)

Flyingfinn that is lovely to hear. I bought an Irish Setter pup as a pet in the past with no intention to show or work her and bred a litter from her doing all health tests. Some may criticise me for that but 3 of her 11 pups have done brilliantly in the ring.

I'm the same with picking a pup as many others. My current bitch was the last one left but is fab, whereas I have walked away from other litters. Though that wasn't actually because I didn't like the pups, more I was unhappy with the breeder and the conditions.

Absolutely. OP - I remember with one litter, advising someone who had phoned with a puppy enquiry, that I would be keeping one of the bitches. They said, 'will you just keep the one no one else chooses' LOL. I said er no, I have first choice.... they are my puppies.

I would read "pick of the litter" as being the dog/bitch who was picked first...regardless of how well turn out? And would fully expect that the breeder has first pick. That being said I would also think that it doesn't naturally mean that they turn out to be the top winning from the litter, I have heard breeders being told "you've kept the wrong one" by others in the ring when they have sold puppies to others to be shown (and have also been told that that is why some breeders only want the other puppies to go as pets?)
Paula

>Most show breeders will want a pick of the litter to go into a show home and will hold back until the right home is available. They are prepared to run it on, and even keep it, rather than see it go into a show home where it's bloodline could be lost.

Wish that was the case in my breed - most show breeders run on 2 or 3 of the best (which is perfectly sensible of course) and sell anything else to pet homes. They are generally (not always) not willing to risk anything being shown that might beat the one(s) they kept. Sometimes they will sell overseas to show, or they will sell a male, but not a bitch.

Sometimes a breeder will pick the puppy that has the traits they need/want to carry on their breeding program, and this may not be the most successful puppy, but as long as the best show prospect is also shown why would a breeder not be happy.

I have been lucky to place two others from my last litter in homes that are showing and been beaten by both.

I kept mien as I was looking for a puppy with most leg and neck, and got it in spades.  At 16 months it means she is very very raw and gawky, where her sisters are more finished and together,a nd I am delighted that they beat mine at times, though I have beaten them also.

So pick of litter can be the one that is chosen first, the one the breeder keeps for whatever reason, or the one that the breeder or often most knowledgeable people viewing think is the most promising be it for show work etc. But as you choose so many things can change.  This is why in toy breeds (who are easier to manage in number, and also easy to home as older pups), breeders will have the luxury to run puppies on to be more certain which is best for their needs.

In most of my litters I have been lucky to match new owners and pups well, and most of the owners have had the puppy they would have picked if they had first choice.

I am another of the breeders who hope to place the best of each sex where they may be shown/make a contribution to the breed, as ti is a numerically small breed, desperate for new enthusiasts, and we can only keep a small number ourselves, so some litters are bred with future inclusion of descendants in future breeding plans in mind, rather than a pup to keep.

I never understand as a breeder why a breeder would not want others to do well with stock they have bred, after all they are the breeder and success reflects well on them.

If I have no-one interested in showing then I will try to hold back the best (in my opinion) to last hoping for that potential show home to turn up, sometimes ti does sometimes not, though I expect the pup to be a family member first and foremost..

Just proves that even 'pet breeders' can breed cracking dogs

The huge difference is that in a litter from a pet breeder it will be nothing but pot luck. Let's face it, how many dogs from pet breeders do we see that don't even resemble their breed, compared to how many quality ones? You only need to look around the nearest park or training class for the answer. Which is just one reason for why I'd never go to a pet breeder even for a pure pet -if I chose a breed I want it to look and act like that breed, and I want the breeder to be knowledgeable enough to know that this is the case.

I disagree Goldmali. My Irish Setter bitch's Dad had been placed regularly and her Grandfather was Supreme Crufts Champion, the mothers line was also very good (but not as good) and I researched which stud dog to use extensively in order to compliment her. I do not believe the fact that the 3 pups that I sold to show homes were so successful was pot luck personally.

Marianne, my girls father is an International Champion [and her grandfather is one of the top sires ever in a world] and her pedigree is full of Champions, so she's from very good stock. Giants are a small breed and there's only a handfull of breeders so you don't really have your average 'pet breeders' because even the 'pet breeders' dogs are from a very good stock.
All I was saying is that nobody thought she was anything special, but she's turned out gorgeous and has a fabulous temperament to go with her looks.

And she's closer to a breed standard than many, many dogs from 'top breeders'.

That's the difference your bitch came from a well bred litter, and I assume was mated to a good dog.  So in fact you in your litter reaped the rewards from the expertise of the breeders of your bitch.

Now if you sold a bitch pup to someone who then bred using the dog around the corner, and the same happened in the next generation you would soon find that the quality of the offspring would not be of the quality that was started with if the breeders are not knowledgeable and practising selective breeding.

I have heard breeders being told "you've kept the wrong one" by others in the ring when they have sold puppies to others to be shown (and have also been told that that is why some breeders only want the other puppies to go as pets?)

This was not the case in my last litter..... I had 4 puppies and I kept a bitch puppy that I had chosen as MY pick. However  without a doubt the only dog in the litter was easily the P.O.L ,however I only keep bitches so he went to close friends as a gift and I own him in partnership, also as we travel to shows together get to see him a lot.!. This left 2 bitches and 1 went up to Scotland where she is having a successful show career in limited circumstances. The remaining bitch puppy is with a friend as a much loved pet and only a few miles away from me. What I am trying to say is that I am thrilled that out of a litter of 4 , 3 puppies have won ccs and resccs , so have been successful in the showring and all of them without exception have super temperaments and are much loved. After all at the end of the day, showing is just a small part of a dogs' life and a happy well adjusted dog is the most important point, whenever I see these puppies that I bred I am so proud of them as they are all super adverts for the breed, which can have some shy/nervous ones.

She has a very dedicated mum FlyingFinn, you have inspired me greatly these past few months!

Tigran, I wasn't saying that all show people are unhappy about selling to other show homes, I was simply saying what I have heard ringside (and not only in my breed)
In your last litter you kept a bitch and a boy (in partnership) so you got the best of both. also the other pup is not in direct competition with you as she is shown in Scotland? and the 4th pup is not shown. How would you feel is that bitch was at every show with you and was consistently beating you? still proud I hope, but not everyone is like that sadly.
I was lucky, the breeder of the dogs I show is thrilled for people to take her pups into the ring along side her and actively supports those who do and currently has aprox 12 that are frequently shown and do well. Not all breeders want to share the limelight regardless of it being a reflection on them.
Paula

My Irish Setter bitch's Dad had been placed regularly and her Grandfather was Supreme Crufts Champion, the mothers line was also very good (but not as good) and I researched which stud dog to use extensively in order to compliment her. I do not believe the fact that the 3 pups that I sold to show homes were so successful was pot luck personally.

First of all, there's no such thing as a Supreme Champion, unless it's a cat. :) Secondly -yes it still was pot luck. There is no such thing as a perfect dog, so without showing you would not know what minor faults you were trying to improve on. You could inadvertently, as a simple example, have produced pups that had eye colour a shade too light. They may do okay in the show ring if it was their only minor fault, but if their littermate, not shown, had the same minor fault, was mated to a dog with the same minor fault, you'd eventually end up with a line of dogs with pale yellow eyes -like is so commonly seen in pet bred Labradors for instance. Anybody can get lucky once by putting two good parents together of good breeding, but  had the parents not been of such good breeding, and had the line continued unshown -sooner or later there would have been a change in the looks. Would the pet breeder recognise eye colour too light? A too straight/upright shoulder? A too high or low ear set or tail set? Etc etc. Not even the novice exhibitor will recognise such faults, unless they get critiques from shows and learn.

Edited to say: In one of my breeds, there is a person who has a dog that is the littermate of a very successful one. This owner frequently moans about their dog not winning tickets, and have advertised him at stud and cannot understand why they are no takers. Surely there should be, as it is from the same litter as the wellknown successful one? What they don't seem to realise is that despite having the same parents, this dog has faults its littermate does not have.

>What they don't seem to realise is that despite having the same parents, this dog has faults its littermate does not have.

I was surprised some years ago when a well-established breeder and exhibitor queried why I was willing to breed from one dog but not a littermate. It seems there are many people who think that because animals have the same parents they have all the same genes.

The pick of litter to a lot of pet homes will be the biggest pup &/or the best marked.

@Paula Dal. Well I am sure that I would still be pleased if I was beaten with one of my own breeding. Cos she is carrying my affix and it shows that as a breeder I am willing to let good ones go to other people. Having said that I still would have chosen my girl, even though the one in Scotland is probably the better bitch. However my girl has the better show personality, she just adores being the centre of attention ...!!!

Why do people say their dogs are Supreme Champion at Crufts then?

http://www.canigoucockers.com/

Thank you Beth ;) I hope I have shown people that you can do well if your dog is good enough, even if you're face is not recognized by the judges. I know a lot of people give up because the same people win all the time, regardless how good their dog is [or isn't] The main reason I'm so proud of my girl is the fact that she's done well because she a good bitch, not because of who's holding her lead.
I hope you and Nog do really well and well done for qualifying for Crufts! Now you'll HAVE TO go lol.

>Why do people say their dogs are Supreme Champion at Crufts then?

http://www.canigoucockers.com/

Because they've got it wrong. :-) Presumably they mean he was BIS?

You'll notice the supreme Champion is in brackets, it was a title wrongly attributed by Pedigree Pet Foods, and the media, to the Best In show winner at Crufts.

It is totally incorrect as a dog could win BIS at Crufts winning it's first CC, and therefore not be a champion, or never become one (less likely), especially if the owner chose to retire the dog after such a big win.