Hello Everyone,  this is my first visit to Champdogs and would be very pleased with your comments re the following.

Having homed a 4-5 year old last night we need help with answers if possible to these three questions.

1. Whilst walking her last night she growls and barks when seeing and passing other dogs.  Can this be stopped?

2. We are shortly in a few days going on holiday to England on the canals.  The dog has only been used with a crate during grooming.  Is it to soon to try and crate train the dog?  I am thinking of using it in my car, on the ferry and inside the canal boat when she is alone.

3. The dog is following our every move around the house.  Is the crate the best option to stop this?

Looking forward to all your advice.

Hi and welcome. 

You've taken on a lovely breed of dog but one who is very definitely a terrier - and all that entails.  Reactive barking is certainly something I would expect with this breed however it's not necessarily a given with the right training.  You may be able to help her reduce some of her vocal responses to other dogs with time and a good training course might help you both.  Have a look at trainers registered with the Association of Pet Dog Trainers

Crate training can be started at any age but please don't be tempted to rush it.  Using one in the car is a very good idea and this can usually be done immediately (the boot is an enclosed space after all) but I do think it too soon to leave her in one whilst you go out, particularly if leaving her on a canal boat.

In fact I'd be very careful about this next step:  she's just joined your family and is adjusting to her new environment AND her routines, food etc.  She may well be unused to travelling in cars and a canal boat might well feel very odd.  Do take steps to contain her whilst you are on board to ensure she can't take a flying leap overboard (can you use a baby gate?), and you may need to restrict her view lest she shout at every passing boat, walker, duck etc.  Until you know her better you should probably expect the worst.  I have an adorable terrier type mongrel who would be stimulated well beyond the norm by this new experience and heaven help the peaceful countryside...

If it were me I'd have avoided taking on a new dog just before a holiday as it's asking a lot of you both.  You won't be able to leave her for very long at all just yet, if at all, and it's unlikely that she'll relax and settle in this new environment so that you can enjoy your holiday.  However, that said, with care and patience it's completely doable but you'll need to just play some of it by ear and adapt as you go along.  Perhaps you'll just have to make sure that ALL your holiday activities next week are dog friendly ones - and at least she's small enough to take shelter under your umbrella as it's going to stay wet I hear   :)  Hope it goes ok

Can I just add that the dog is probably following your every move because she feels insecure.  Understandable in the circumstance, so I personally wouldn´t crate her because of this.  Allow her to follow you.  She needs to know she´s not going to be left (abandoned?) and crating her won´t help her insecurity.  Allow her to follow you and when she feels settled into your home she won´t feel the same need to follow you so much.

All my dogs follow me around the house, I don't find this to be abnormal behaviour,they want to be where I am and see what I am doing.

Have you got a life jacket for the dog,my friend used to take their cat on barges but always had a life jacket on her except over night.

I hope all goes well for you and the dog.

Dogs can learn to enjoy being in their crate at any age but the experience must be a pleasurable one for them and as with most things an older dog will take longer to adapt.

Also as this little dog has just come into a new home she will be feeling insecure and it is only to be expected that she will try and latch onto you and follow you around .Her true personalty will not surface for several weeks yet. She is afraid that she will be abandonded so please be patient and when you do crate her put her food in there or a nice chew toy/treat  and don't close the door at first.

Gradually as her confidence in you rises then close the door for a few minutes and build on this.I find my dogs like a blanket draped over the top of their crates  as it helps to create a den.

If it is essential that you take the dog on holiday then you will just have to try and work around her as this will be yet a whole new set of rules for her to try and adapt to.

Start by being consistent and try to be calm and fair but don't feel sorry for her as all most dogs want is an owner who sets fair boundaries ,is reliable and loving.
Best of luck and hang in there

In addition to what the others have said...

First - build confidence. Confidence is your building block for everything else.

Secondly - do NOT think 'how do I stop this behaviour'. Instead, think 'why is this behaviour happening... would would I rather she did... how can I make that happen'.

So - to apply that to your immediate situation:

Don't think 'how do I stop her following me about' - think 'why is she following me around' - the answer is, shes insecure, everything is new. If you prevent her from doing this you will likely cause a bigger problem, so the crate isn't the answer.

Let her follow you BUT - make a point of inviting her if you want her to come with you, and therefore talking to her whilst you do whatever you are doing, rewarding her randomly (fuss, praise, scritches, food, whatever SHE likes best), and also sometimes make a point of NOT inviting her to come with you, and therefore ignoring her presence entirely.

If you are consistent with this she will learn that when you invite her, its good - when you don't its boring.

You can (though I would wait a week or two!) push this a little to make your point clearer - set up situations where for five to ten minutes you will flit back and forth from one room to another - break down a simple task such as making a cup of tea or coffee into ten stages or more. As you move from one room to the other, keep half an eye on her, if she starts to settle in one room, move on.. as she starts to settle again, move on. THe point is that you haven't invited her, you ARENT staying in the other room that long, and its REALLY tedious and annoying to keep following you, settling down, only to have to move AGAIN.... you want her thinking 'darn it, won't my person just stay still!'. YOu MUST ignore her whilst doing this and remember that ignoring means no speaking, no touching and no eye contact - pretend she isn't there!

After a few weeks of doing this a couple of times a day, then introduce a new element - motivation to stay in one place whilst you do this 'fakey' flitting about - the ideal is a large raw bone, but a large food stuffed toy will do, the proviso is it must NOT be comfortable or easy to carry around - it HAS to be so big and so rewarding that she does not want to leave it, and she cannot carry it with her. Then repeat the flitting about, but this time she has her bone and so now the choice is 'follow the boring person who is pratting about back and forth and will ignore me - OR.. stay here with this delicious treat..'

If you can do all of the above, you will very quickly have a dog who is confident about staying on their own in another room, and thats your foundation for her being ok when you are upstairs, out of the house, actually out properly ... etc.

The more things she figures out for herself the better, so learning to be ok about being left this way is MUCH more effective, and kinder to the dog, than shutting them somewhere and forcing them to accept it.

When it comes to other dogs when she is on leash - again instead of 'how do i stop this' think 'why'... Why is likely because shes on lead, thus she is trapped, shes also a terrier so preprogrammed to warn scary things away rather than shy away herself.
Forcing her to get close, to 'get over it', or to prove its ok WON'T work - instead do the opposite, avoid. Demonstrate to her (because after all you can;t explain..) that YOU will take evasive action and create the space s he needs BEFORE she feels she must react.

In effect that means crossing the road, turning around and running away, hiding behind parked vehicles, choosing quiet locations or quiet times of day to walk her.

You might well find that as she settles with you, and you do the above, these problems become insignificant pretty quickly, as they may be largely to do with being new to you and your home, so don't worry just yet that she has any serious issues.

What a good post, and shows the reasoning of the advise given, in plain language.

So often behavioural stuff is wrapped up in jargon that is off putting.

Very informative post ....I love the explanations why she's creating the behaviours.

Let's hope the OP comes back.

I love CD..... Always somebody out there with the answers to our problems and sound advice.

"You can (though I would wait a week or two!) push this a little to make your point clearer - set up situations where for five to ten minutes you will flit back and forth from one room to another - break down a simple task such as making a cup of tea or coffee into ten stages or more. As you move from one room to the other, keep half an eye on her, if she starts to settle in one room, move on.. as she starts to settle again, move on. THe point is that you haven't invited her, you ARENT staying in the other room that long, and its REALLY tedious and annoying to keep following you, settling down, only to have to move AGAIN.... you want her thinking 'darn it, won't my person just stay still!'. YOu MUST ignore her whilst doing this and remember that ignoring means no speaking, no touching and no eye contact - pretend she isn't there!"

Most dogs I know would have no problem with you flitting about and would never tire of simply getting up and following you to the next room so you could be waiting a verrrry long time for the dog to get bored. In fact, with something as lively as a Border Terrier I imagine he will be out the door before you lol. I would use a crate/babygate to teach the new one that being left alone for just a few minutes, to begin with, is not scary and not intended as a punishment. You could reinforce this by returning with a handful of treats or his meal so he knows something pleasant will follow.

That hasn't been my experience and I have used this method on countless dogs and been recommending it for years.

The point is that you initially teach them following without invitation is not rewarding - THEN you teach them that choosing to stay in another room IS rewarding. You set them up to choose not to follow.

Using a baby gate or crate means you are forcing the issue and you might get away with it with some dogs, but you might not, theres an element of risk there.

To clarify with my method, you don't need to wait for the dog to really BE horribly bored, just for him/her to have got the idea that this is really not that fun, its becoming a bit of a chore to follow you, they are beginning to see that it is pointless. THEN you introduce motivation to not follow...

"The point is that you initially teach them following without invitation is not rewarding - THEN you teach them that choosing to stay in another room IS rewarding. You set them up to choose not to follow.

Using a baby gate or crate means you are forcing the issue and you might get away with it with some dogs, but you might not, theres an element of risk there."

For most dogs just being with you IS rewarding, that's why they follow so trying to set it up so that they see it as boring would be very difficult imo. Using a baby gate/crate is not forcing the issue, just helping the dog to accept a very brief separation which is then built up gradually. But there are many ways to skin a cat so each to their own and all that.

>For most dogs just being with you IS rewarding,

Exactly.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Using a baby gate/crate is not forcing the issue

... how? If without it the dog would follow you, and with it they physically cannot, then it IS 'forcing' the issue.

For a well balanced dog used to the owner or one used to being crated, that might well be fine - for one new to a home, possibly never crated before it could cause considerable stress and upset.

Undoubtedly most dogs do find it highly rewarding to be with you, and yes setting things up so that they find it tedious or not so rewarding to shadow you IS hard (and many people need to be told that talking to the dog, absent mindedly scritching or even looking at them, can be even more rewarding)... BUT.. there really is no risk to what I advise - whats the worst that can happen, the dog still follows you.

Get to stage two where you introduce some motivation for the dog to NOT follow, through choice.. whats the worst that can happen there, the dog still follows you - ok, so in that case I advise something different.. but no harm is done in the process.

If I advise that the dog is crated or shut behind a gate, and actually that dog has severe issues and freaks out.. at BEST the dog is likely to learn that making a noise or freaking out means the owner returns. At worst you make an existing issue far worse (thinking back here to a rehomed dog who broke his teeth on the bars of a gate because his owner was told to do just what you advise, and ignore his noise.. that particular dog took 8 months to get to a point where he was comfortable left alone!)

But hey, what do I know.

Any news, OP?

Themixother, keep half an eye on her, if she starts to settle in one room, move on.. as she starts to settle again, move on. THe point is that you haven't invited her, you ARENT staying in the other room that long, and its REALLY tedious and annoying to keep following you, settling down, only to have to move AGAIN.... you want her thinking 'darn it, won't my person just stay still!'. YOu MUST ignore her whilst doing this and remember that ignoring means no speaking, no touching and no eye contact - pretend she isn't there!"

Marisa
Most dogs I know would have no problem with you flitting about and would never tire of simply getting up and following you to the next room so you could be waiting a verrrry long time for the dog to get bored. In fact, with something as lively as a Border Terrier I imagine he will be out the door before you lol. I would use a crate/babygate to teach the new one that being left alone for just a few minutes, to begin with, is not scary and not intended as a punishment. You could reinforce this by returning with a handful of treats or his meal so he knows something pleasant will follow.

Marisa, mine are like yours - I have 3 who follow me every time I move yet none of them have SA they just like being with me.

One I've had 9 years, one 4 and one 3 years so they haven't got fed up yet.

Another interesting point, which came on a  thread yesterday (which has vanished), was the one on rewarding behaviours you want and ignoring the ones you don't.  Interesting to see that Themix states :-

remember that ignoring means no speaking, no touching and no eye contact - pretend she isn't there!"

Which is why so many dogs who grumble and offer unwanted agnostic behaviours become more and more aggressive.  Novice owners have had 'ignore' unwanted behaviours drummed into them and they all take 'ignore' to mean just what Themix has described.  The absolute worse thing you can do to a dog offering 'controlling' behaviours. 

Sorry to go a bit off topic but it is a very important reason why dogs bite people and the thread has disappeared.

Would you care to clarify your point a little here...

I do fully understand that in some contexts ignoring a dog is the worst thing you can do, particularly when the behaviour is self rewarding  AND a damaging, or addictive thing to do..

In my example, ignoring the dog following you during a short training session is not a problem, at absolute worst... the dog will carry on following you. No harm done there.

This is worlds apart from say, ignoring a dog who is flinging himself at a window trying to get to a dog in the street outside, or ignoring a dog who daily shreds the post from the postmans fingers through the letter box.

There are other instances where ignoring in the way I describe would be a bad plan (and you'll note, I never advise it in these contexts), particularly for example, a very needy dog left alone and being ignored on the owner returning, especially where that dog is used to a fair degree of attention when owners come in - THAT sort of ignoring CAN push some dogs into a deep depression and result in some very extreme behaviours, including aggression.

You'll also find (if you bother to read any of my other advice, here, or elsewhere), I NEVER EVER tell people to ignore a dog growling or communicating in any way - in fact I tell people dogs growling and communicating is a GOOD thing and they need to LISTEN to this and respond appropriately. Ignoring a growl and carry on whatever it was you were doing can result very quickly in bites instead of growls.

I very much dislike the simplified and generalised idea 'ignore the bad, reward the good' - it does have some basis in truth but it is by far and away NOT the full picture and to treat as if it is the whole story is dangerous indeed. I never do and always take pains to explain to people that they must stop a behaviour being rewarding as far as is possible, put in place alternative behaviours that are acceptable, to be ready to distract and redirect rather than waiting for things to go wrong.

Also, could the two of you stop taking my advice out of context - the method for discouraging a needy dog from following someone around is a multi-part behavioural modification program, with several stages to it.

I am positive for lots of dogs if you just ignore them following you around they WILL continue to do so, and that is NOT what I advised in the slightest, I am getting a bit cheesed off at having my advice picked apart, taken out of context and the implied subtext of the last post is particularly offensive.

Not wanting to get involved in the debate but, without a lead on most dogs, they would not choose to stay near their owners.  Are we 'forcing the issue' by using leads, to make them be somewhere they don't want?

It's important for dogs to learn that it is safe to be left alone.  The best way to start this off is through intermediate forms of separation, using stair-gates or crates, so the dog learns that someone is nearby and in the house - they have not been completely abandoned - but they just can't get to the person.  Once you've achieved security - a dog which doesn't mind being left in this way - then you can work on getting the dog used to being left briefly and gradually extend the amount of time.  How gradually depends on the individual dog and what it can tolerate.

Dogs are not always happy about being left, but there is a difference between 1) frustration and 2) fear.  A dog which is frustrated can make a lot of noise and protestation, but an owner with a good relationship with their dog can usually tell the difference between angry frustration and fear.  It is ok to ignore angry, frustrated noise, and only to return when it has stopped.  But to ignore fear will only result in that fear becoming panic and freaking out totally - and that then being associated with being left.  So I usually suggest owners think about whether the noise is frustration or fear, before they can decide how best to respond (or not).  If it is fear, then you have pushed the dog too far in terms of 'alone-training' and you need to return BEFORE any noise has started next time.

It's fine for dogs to follow owners around - as long as you know your dog would also be ok, if you needed to prevent this.  If your dog is so attached that it can't be left, then working on some separation inside the house is a great place to start as a first step.

In terms of ignoring unwanted behaviours, it always depends on where the rewards are coming from:  If a dog is leaping at the kitchen counter to get food, that food is rewarding the dog.  If the dog is scrabbling at the back door, and the owner then returns, that return is rewarding the scrabbling. 

Always look for where the rewards are:  If you ignore the behaviour (removing yourself as a reward), that is only going to work if you were the sole source of rewards.  If there is something else in the environment rewarding the behaviour, you're going to achieve nothing by ignoring it.

"Also, could the two of you stop taking my advice out of context" - may I ask how I have taken your advice out of context? Just because not everybody agrees with you, no need to take it personally.

You keep picking on ONE part of a multi part behavioural modification program.. it won't work as one part.. so you are taking that one part out of context of the rest of it.

I forgot to say:  When you/we are talking about proximity to the owner as a 'reward', we are mixing 2 different systems of thinking about dog-human relationships.

One is the system of attachment and the other is the more behavioural reward-punishment based system of learning theory. 

To date, the former has been largely ignored and everything has been behaviour-ised.  This is where you get advice such as 'ignore puppies making (fearful) noise when left - if you return to them, you will reward the noise'.  That is approaching attachment-based behaviour from the perspective of learning theory.  It doesn't work.  They are 2 different paradigms.

You need to ensure you have a dog which is securely attached to you.  Yes, this is the same sort of attachment as in humans - Bowlby stuff. 

Attachment-based stuff is about safety and unsafety.  (It is safe when my owner is near.  It is scary when not.)

Learning theory is about reward and punishment. 

They are operating in 2 different paradigms... This needs to be recognised by dog trainers/behaviourists.

> The dog is following our every move around the house

How is she now?

We got our last dog from a rescue when he was 4 years old. He was very 'clingy' to start with, following us around all the time. We just carried on like normal, never shut him away, just let him go where he wanted, he soon settled down when he started to feel more at home with us (it was a very long time ago now, but I think it took a few weeks for him to stop following us about).
He never suffered from any seperation anxiety at all once he was settled in and could easily be left home alone without it causing him any upset.

Hope your holiday has gone well and your new dog has enjoyed it with you.

"You keep picking on ONE part of a multi part behavioural modification program.. it won't work as one part.. so you are taking that one part out of context of the rest of it."

I'm trying to explain why that part generally doesn't work so the rest of the programme will fall apart anyway........ Sorry that you are so sensitive to other people's input/experience.

Meh - I have plenty of real world experience that suggests the whole program DOES work. Of course if you take ONE part of a great number of behaviour modification programs (or training programs) they won't work... if you do most things in a half-assed way,  or erm, incorrectly, they won't work.

Different dogs respond differently to the first part and some could skip that and go straight to sessions involving motivation not to follow, but I prefer a belt and braces approach AND.. it makes owners THINK, they often do not know when they are rewarding and encouraging a behaviour they do not want, this makes them think about that to a greater degree.

Just to clarify, I am not sensitive about other peoples input or experience - I welcome it and it helps me become a better trainer - I think fairly reasonably, like most people, I don't like people picking little bits of what I have said, out of context and twisting them around.

No idea what you're talking about so will just leave it there.

You'll also find (if you bother to read any of my other advice, here, or elsewhere), I NEVER EVER tell people to ignore a dog growling or communicating in any way - in fact I tell people dogs growling and communicating is a GOOD thing and they need to LISTEN to this and respond appropriately. Ignoring a growl and carry on whatever it was you were doing can result very quickly in bites instead of growls.

Only if the dog is growling out of fear then it will bite in defence because the threat is not removed.

But, for dogs who are growling to control situations, stopping what you are doing increases their confidence and they will surely bite in future if someone does not do what they want.

And as I said, I pointed out your comment here as it related to another thread just the day before (which quicklydisappeared).  That thread revolved around how the mantra of 'Reward behaviour you want and ignore those you don't' produces aggressive dogs in some circumstances for the simple reason that almost everyone (certainly novice owners) have heard or read time and time again 'Remeber, ignore means no touching, no speaking and no eye contact'.

So if they are follow one of the first rules of Positive reinforecment training and reward what they want and ignore what they don't and believe that ignoring means no interaction of any kind you end up with the scenario where dogs exhibiting self-rewarding behaviour of any kind have that behaviour reinforced.  That includes people backing off from dogs who growl at them (not out of fear) as a means of control who then become more aggressive because the unwanted agnostic behaviour has been rewarded by being ignored (backing off).   The other difficulty is being able to read the dog and to accurately judge whether it is growling out of fear or as a controlling behaviour.

Your comment just happened to be a timely and typical example of how mis-understandings occur due to  phrases that are repeated in part or not wholly explained.

> But, for dogs who are growling to control situations, stopping what you are doing increases their confidence and they will surely bite in future if someone does not do what they want.

What are, and how do you define, controlling situations?

>What are, and how do you define, controlling situations?

That is my question too.

Almost all aggression originates in fear, if you go far enough back.  It may look like assertive, controlling behaviour - but why does the dog feel the need to control?  Because control alleviates fear.

Just as with people:  People who are control-freaks are usually anxious, at heart!

Dog walks at heel, we reward.  Are we then rewarding the pulling, which just happened before the walking at heel??  Wow, a lot of training suddenly becomes very difficult.

A good example has just appeared on the Growling thread.

>What are, and how do you define, controlling situations?

That is my question too. 

Sorry about the above post.  It should have been a reply to the question above (in this post) but pasted in a previous 'copy' item which doesn't related to this thread at all.

The answer is the same - a good example just appeared on the Growling Thread.