We have a flattie, nearly 4 years old, and eight months ago added a six month old border collie to our family. Our flattie is a very placid guy, gets on with all dogs and people, but a bit lazy and greedy, and we hoped another dog would help him to be a bit more active. We tried the two dogs together and all seemed fine. At first we had to watch the bc as he would occasionally curl his lip or snap at the flattie, particularly if they were 'competing' (in their eyes) for our attention. We nipped this firmly in the bud (sorry for the pun) and, generally, all has been OK. It is fair to say that they are not best-buddies but they seem to be alright with each other; they do play-fight, usually instigated by the bc, but flattie is well able to hold his own and we never let it get out of hand.

We have discovered that our collie is really a 'people' person - he loves everyone and is really a very entertaining and loveable dog - but is not too keen on other dogs in general. If they get 'in his face' he is inclined to snap at them and on walks he will make a detour to avoid them. We manage all this to minimise flash points and we have kept reinforcing our position as leaders, as I think some of this is down to fear. All has been going well (ish) and we were saying that we thought the two dogs were starting to look more friendly.

BUT, (isn't there always one of these!), this morning the collie snapped at flattie's face for no reason at all - it was a very normal part of our routine and he was not under any pressure, jealousy at all. It came out of the blue. We dealt with it very firmly and normal service has been resumed! This hasn't happened for quite some time now. My question is not really how to handle it but, having never had two dogs before, what is the prospect of them ever getting on better? They get loads of exercise and we are at home all day, with a huge garden, and I have been taking bc to Agility for 6 weeks, which is going well, so I don't think it is down to an understimulated/bored border collie. We feel that he would love being an only dog but that isn't an option now - we are definitely NOT people to give up and we are really hoping that eventually they will feel more a 'pair'. Or is this just over-optimistic?

by the way, both dogs are neutered males. I do understand that our collie is still only 14 months, just a puppy really, so I am wondering if this latest 'breakdown' is part of adolescence, another go at asserting himself over the other dog. I would really appreciate anyone who knows more than I do (not difficult!) about adding another dog to the family to give me the benefit of their experience. We have two young dogs and would love to think that in time all would be a bit more harmonious.

A couple of things occur to me. What age was the BC neutered at, seeing as he is still only 14 months? It's usually best to leave neutering to at the very least 18 months ,ideally 2 years, as when done young, you can cause all sorts of behavioural problems, such as the dog not maturing properly. (Speaking from first hand experience here sadly.) The other thing is that you are telling the dog off for showing his feeling towards the other one -so they never get a chance to resolve things between themselves. Forget about being a pack leader -it doesn't work like that, you are not dogs and therefore will never be art of their pack. It may well be that your younger dog will end up being in charge as he is the stronger character, and the FCR may not mind at all.

Personally I would not be putting the FCR in any uncomfotable position. if i had not long taken on the BC and had never had problems  with the FCR i would rehome BC. simple as that. not fair on the FCR. what you do not want is putting him in the position of HAVING to defend himself. that isnt fair.  I would not be leaving them to 'sort things out for themselves'. what you will find is your BC will at some point have problems outside the home with other males. he has had what i call his setteling in period and is now showing his true self.  my personal opinion, but i am sure you will get lots of advise from others. good luck.

this morning the collie snapped at flattie's face for no reason at all - 
that is showing it isnt a case of leaving them to 'sort it out for themselfs'

BTY, your BC is no longer a puppy, he is a Juvinille, pushing his luck. ;)

He was neutered at 1 year. I don't know if that was wrong but of course we can't alter it now! I've had very conflicting advice about whether to tell him off or not, both from well-respected fully-qualified trainers. One said that we mustn't allow him to think that he can take matters into his own hands and that we must be in charge and the other said, like you, that he should be allowed to curl his lip, growl and snap - anything short of outright aggression - so that he can give the warning he feels is necessary. It all comes down to whether to subscribe to the 'pack leader' argument or not. I'm not 100% sure which side to come down on but I do feel it's wrong that he snaps quite forcefully at another dog in our house who is sitting minding his own business!

We do realise that our flattie is almost certainly the weaker character - this would have been the case with almost any other dog - and don't mind the bc being the more dominant one, but does that mean that he is allowed to 'bully' the other dog? It goes against the grain to see our gentle dog being snapped at. Surely he would not like this? He certainly won't retaliate; he just doesn't have it in him. The only time I've seen him come out on top is when they are play-fighting and he bowls the bc over and lies on him!

Hence my confusion!

this morning the collie snapped at flattie's face for no reason at all -
that is showing it isnt a case of leaving them to 'sort it out for themselfs'

Dogs NEVER snap for no reason whatsoever. WE may not have spotted what the reason was, but there WAS a reason, simple as that. By interfering when one dog was simply THREATENING, we just make matters worse. A snap is not a bite or an attack, it is a warning.

I don't allow my dogs to push each other around or get overly bossy with each other.  I have two entire dogs of 5 and 2 yrs and one older neutered one of 9 yrs.  It's the least secure dog in the middle that is most inclined to get a bit silly and I have different strategies depending on time, place and activity.  However I should say at this point that I've only rarely heard any noise I'd interpret as aggressive and I cannot recall ever seeing an action I'd consider such.  I don't know whether that's because it genuinely isn't there, or I avert it before it gets that far, or what...

There are certainly times in the dogs life when it ramps up a bit - age, presence of an in season bitch, adding other dogs in the mix etc - so I'm not so surprised you're seeing it now.

Does your older dog have safe places he can go?  My middle dog sometime 'pecks' at him (a sort of neck jabbing) which is a bit irritating, not least for me (!) so I let the older dog go and sleep in the living room - he has a favourite daytime snooze spot in there - and the middle dog stays this side of the baby gate with me.  A lot of our silly behaviour happens after food so I tend to separate them til it wears off.  It's a low key kind of reaction on my part and generally means they all slope off to a comfortable position somewhere and I just shut a few doors.

I got baby gates when the middle dog was a puppy and we just kept them.  Great when the youngest came along but at other times too.  Would they help you?

We have a baby gate - I agree, it's absolutely invaluable - so I could keep them apart if necessary, though if our flattie wants to lie quietly anywhere in the house the collie doesn't disturb him.

I think mornings are the most likely time for any problems - but as i said, this one came as a surprise as we'd gone at least a couple of months with no aggression towards the older dog. I saw exactly what happened and I honestly have no idea at all what caused him to snap.

I really don't want to consider getting rid of our bc - we have had him eight months and he is one of us. ~The problem doesn't seem that acute. I just don't really understand it or know what is likely to be the longterm relationship between them.

I really think that no dog deserves to have to put up with being bullied. Why should a kind dog like your Flatcoat have to tolerate this in his own home? The collie is adolescent but snapping is renowned collie behaviour. Don't put up with him doing this: he needs to be told that it is unacceptable and although, like you, I would not want to part with him, the older dog must come first and rehoming the collie might be the only fair thing to do for your retriever.

Dogs NEVER snap for no reason whatsoever. WE may not have spotted what the reason was, but there WAS a reason, simple as that. By interfering when one dog was simply THREATENING, we just make matters worse. A snap is not a bite or an attack, it is a warning.

I really agree with Goldmalis posts on this. Your bc isn't being aggressive - he is being bossy and snapping when he's unhappy at something. While other dogs may go through the whole range of warnings to other dogs - posture, growl, showing teeth and then snap if all that is ignored, many bcs will head straight to showing teeth or snapping. If he isn't actually biting then he is showing restraint and shouldn't be punished for this.

He may well be bullying your easy going flattie sometimes, in which case using the child gate to give your older dog some peace seems very sensible, but I can't see why the bc would need to be rehomed.

As for avoiding contact with strange dogs when out - this just seems like a normal bc to me. Some bcs are very sociable with other dogs try meet when out, but the majority don't welcome the intrusion.

> At first we had to watch the bc as he would occasionally curl his lip or snap at the flattie, particularly if they were 'competing' (in their eyes) for our attention. We nipped this firmly in the bud (sorry for the pun) and, generally, all has been OK.

How did you nip it in the bud?

> but flattie is well able to hold his own and we never let it get out of hand.

Do you always end play-time/rough-housing or has the flattie ever had the chance to end it?
I don't have vast experience of a multi-dog household but I did bring Buster home as a pup with an adult male here. Buster was very full-on with his playing (biting oldie, jumping on him, barging into him) and ebing a general obnoixious bully. I thought the best thing was for me to stop it, but all that seemed to do was teach pup that oldie was an easy target/couldn't stand up for himself.

When Buster was about 6 months old (allready much larger than the oldie), I deciced to NOT get involved when they were playing or when Buster was pestering oldie, lo & behold, when pup over-stepped the line, oldie told him off himself (verbal with a show of biting, but no actual biting)! From that point on, oldie was no longer the soft target, pup knew oldie had his own boundries and was much more respectfull of how he played/behaved with him. They got closer and closer as friends after that and oldie would even stay in his bed when Buster squeezed in with him.  (sadly we had to have oldie PTS when Buster was a year old, so I never saw if the dreaded kevin stage would have caused Buster to once again test out oldies limits)

Just a thought but, you know your FCR might not be the little Mr Goody Two Shoes that you think he is. As Goldmali has said, dogs don't snap without a reason. Now assuming that your BC youngster is fit and well, I'd be having a look at what the FCR is doing. He may be doing absolutely nowt, but on the other hand he might just be pushing the youngster - if you watch dogs, you will know that this does not have to be physical, as subtle as a look. Bit like a kid sticking their tongue out at another other and going 'ner, ner, ner, ne ner' (sorry, rubbish phonetical attempt, but sure you know what I'm getting at) ... it's usually the kiddy that reacts that gets told off!!

It may be that they don't like each other, may never do so, or it may be that there's something really very subtle going on that you're not seeing.

I thoroughly recommend you have a read of Suzanne Clothier's 'He Just Wants to Say Hi!' ... http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/ , essential reading for all dog owners :-D

Were both these dogs neutered young? It is possible that if they were they have not and will not reach the normal male maturity, where in most cases if they know one another they will rub along with no problem. Junior dogs are inclined to push their luck and if neutered at that point may not move on to become gentlemen but remain yobs most of their lives. I have had up to 5 intact males together each one introduced as a puppy and although they are ignored for about the week after that they are accepted with no problem.

Can't think what you can do except try and discover what it is that is causing the problem, what the trigger is, and to hope the youngster does grow out of this silly stage if indeed it is him that is the problem.

Trialist - just wanted to say thanks for the link to the excellent article.   I have often witnessed apparently innocent dogs winding others up - the owners are usually unaware.

Thank you , 'mastiff lover'. In reply: We say 'No' very firmly and give the bc a command he has to obey - usually a 'down' and make him stay in this until we feel he has 'come out of the moment'. We then try to fuss the two together, not literally nose to nose, but closeish and both dogs seem quite content with this.

When they are play fighting, we quite often give flattie the chance to end it - in fact, over the months, he has become more forceful. He'll often be the one who ends by chasing bc, who goes away, at least for a short while, though he generally returns for another bout! He has also started stealing toys/bones off bc, if he puts them down for even a moment, adn bc doesn't try to take them off him, just gazes longingly and, I think, hopes we'll intervene, as we sometimes do, if it seems really unfair.

I think our flattie is OK, he's just such a placid chap; I really want them to be happier with each other, though. At the moment I think both would rather have us all to themselves; I don't feel that either of them see the other dog as a welcome addition to the household which was why we got a second dog. In hindsight, the two breeds were perhaps not the best match, but we now want to make the best of it for them. Perhaps just a case of being patient.

By giving a firm 'No' and making him follow a cue, the way you describe it, you may be adding tension/stress to the situation - if this happens every time, then he's going to start getting stressed just being around the FCR in anticipation of a telling off (a firm 'No' etc may not seem like a telling off but bear in mind, BCs are very sensitive dogs).

I would give him a cue that brings him totally out of the situation - find a ball, go to bed, go outside, but always said in a happy, interesting way, then give him HUGE praise/reward/play when he does come away.  He'll then start to associate the FCR with good eperiences, his self control will improve and he'll become more responsive to you.

Time will tell if they'll settle down together but if, as you suspect, the bc would rather be an only dog I don't think it's fair that "In hindsight, the two breeds were perhaps not the best match, but we now want to make the best of it for them." It would probably be kindest, if that were the case, to rehome the collie as an only dog (or see if he will settle with a female in another home).

> have a read of Suzanne Clothier's 'He Just Wants to Say Hi!' ...

Have just read this and saved it Trialist. Lots of good sense in here. Many thanks!

>I thoroughly recommend you have a read of Suzanne Clothier's 'He Just Wants to Say Hi!' ... http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/ , essential reading for all dog owners :-D

Great article, thanks for that. My oldest girl is a lot like Cream - happy with polite dogs, but snaps and snarls at pushy youngsters. She never touches them, it's all noise. But I do have to watch for the signs that she is about to have a go, because non-dog savvy owners will be shocked or alarmed at a Cavalier, another breed said to be totally non-aggressive, making the sort of racket she makes while telling a youngster off. I do rather wish she could manage to do the telling without sounding quite so vicious!

Trialist. Thank you for that link, great reading & as you say essential reading.

>I do rather wish she could manage to do the telling without sounding quite so vicious!

Ahh Lucy, that's the whole point, it's the 'short, sharp, shock value' that makes it SO effective :-D

My oldest bitch has done this with pups when they've reached the end of their puppy license (after about a year old ),  it sounds like she's killing them, but it's all bluster, she never even touches them even though it's very 'in the face'  :-D  I've never seen a pup of ours repeat the experience, though occasionally a really 'thick' or pushy outsider needs a second telling LOL