From my past experience I think you should take her in starved and ask for her to be xrayed. The painkillers may only mask something else.

That's good to know jackie, holly weighs 37kg is now on 2x 50mg rimdayl and is 8 years next month. She only been on this dose for 2 days x

She is then on a very low dose for the start of treatment, having an x-ray is a good idea but I also think you need to have better pain control until you get a proper diagnosis it is surprising how quickly they get depressed if they are unable to move.

Does anyone know if when claiming on dog insurance whether if you are not satisfied with the current vet surgery whether changing to another surgery that you have used before is possible? And to carry on the claim?
Getting ready to go to current vet but losing confidence in them

You're always at liberty to change to another vet, and the insurance claim is between you and the insurance company, not the vet practice.

I'm sorry Holly is still not doing well :(

When Buster got diagnosed with elbow displasia as a pup, it wasn't an immediate diagnosis. First he went to the vet with a limp, was sent home with the instructions to rest him and with some anit-inflamatores. We went back a couple of times with the limp, but whenever he was at the vets the limp vanished, so I took some video footage of him at home. Then took him back to the vet and asked for x-rays.

Anti-inflamatories and 'wait & see' can be part of the diagnising process - different things respond differently to different approachs so it can rule out/pin-point some things. Especially when you consider how stoic dogs are, even as a pup it took numerous visits and an extremely keen eye before the vet could detect the minute reaction to having a joint manipulated that indicated it hurt him (a partial closing of the eyes was the only sign his right elbow hurt when the vet tried to bend it -very important as the limp was appearing to shift around to each leg).

I appreciate how frustrating and upsetting it is, seeing your dog in obvious pain with terrible mobility, if you really do think the vet is fobbing you off then do find another, but it really is worth talking everything through with your current vet - eg. Why do they think it's arthritis? I had a lot of long chats with Busters vet and he was very good at explaining why he was thinknig what he was thinking (if you see what I mean) and that really helped me put my mind at rest and feel confidant in the him.

I hope it goes well at the vet for you & Holly today.

Getting ready to go to current vet but losing confidence in them

This is not a good situation because it just adds to your stress, you can move to a different vet but you can also ask your vet to to be sent to a orthopaedic specialist vet - this is what I would be doing having asked my vet for additional pain killers.

Ggggrrrrrrr!!!!
The vet won't give her any extra pain relief and to top it all I just noticed vet has given a weeks worth of 20mg 2x daily instead of the 50mg dose holly was on 2x daily! Waiting for the vet to call about this.
Again holly check over is normal apart from her very swollen legs, all 4 of them nearly double in size.
The vet wants more blood done to check protein again last done Friday,
Vet says its fluid on her leg joints she gave it a name but can't remember it.
I have now called my other vet surgery for a second opinion this afternoon.
Why would the vet give a lower dose despite me asking for more pain relief as holly is clearly in pain!

I hate to worry you but the legs and other symptoms are leading me to think liver failure. This is how my lovely Mooses symptoms developed.

Has she got any yellowing of her eyes ? Sorry don't mean to worry you but it has just rung alarm bells with the legs x

symptoms are leading me to think liver failure

Thought a full blood test and a urine test had been done, hope I am not confusing with another thread.

Did she say bursitis?  Thats an inflammation of the fluid sacs around the joints

Moose had two sets of bloods done and fist had a slight raised liver function issue but rapidly got worse over a few days.

It might be worth asking for a second round of bloods especially in the limb swelling has just materialised.

> Vet says its fluid on her leg joints she gave it a name but can't remember it.

Effusion? (fluid collecting around joints)

I do think you are wise no to get a second opinion. I hope you can get some answers from the other vet.

Best of luck.

Vet phoned to opologise for prescribing wrong dose of rimadyl, also spoke to senior vet at same surgery who said holly could have extra pain relief,,,,,,!
Edema was mention as possible cause.
I am still fuming my poor girl is in pain and not been given the extra pain relief for a week!
The vet she has been seeing has only just qualified and this was the excuse!

Poor Holly :( I have no experience of an arthritic dog, but I wanted to mention that just now I have been watching 'Vets 24/7' on BBC Three and there is a lab who has arthritis in his back legs.

The vet tried acupuncture and you could see it in the labs face how the pain was shifting pretty instantly. The dog was carried into the vets and walked straight out of the vets. Just a thought.

>Edema was mention as possible cause.

Oedema simply means swelling caused by a build-up of fluid.

>The vet she has been seeing has only just qualified and this was the excuse!

Bet they still charged you the same though! 

I would try to book in with one of the senior vets at your practice next time. It might be that someone more experienced will be able to give you a more informed opinion without you having to change practices. Hope Holly will he a bit more comfortable now.

Better to underdose than overdose, but the vet should have had the confidence to double-check and get it right.

Edema is just a fancy word for swelling really, it's not a cause, basically means fluid build up.

> Better to underdose than overdose

I know what you mean and on the whole I'm sure you're right. But I remember once when this happened to me. Like the OP, I noticed as soon as I got home and went back to get the correct strength tablets. But this particular course of tablets was our last shot at solving the problem before surgery. As it happened the correct dose did the trick so no surgery was needed thankfully. But as I said to the receptionist, it did matter because if I hadn't noticed and his symptoms hadn't resolved, then he'd have needed an op that he could have avoided.

Just a case of human error really, it happens. But just as well to have eyes in the back of your head as well!

Zoe, I'd honestly now be requesting a referral to a specialist and I highly recommend Fitzpatrick, have you been to them before? Regards insurance they will call the company direct to find out if insurance will pay claim and they will request direct, as we know they aren't cheap :-)

Really hope you can find the cause soon, hope Holly starts to improve :-)

I agree with Sue. Never had an arthritic dog have swollen limbs not even from being fairly immobile. A new vet may not be familiar with Bernese problems and they can only tell so much without an X-ray.

You can ask your vet to refer you to someone like Fitzpatricks for an MRI and they will usually fit you in on the same day.

Second opinion. Boy I need some prayers made tonight,
The vet I have got the second opinion from is a surgery my dogs are registered at but only use normally for ops etc as they are not local, although now I have found out they have a surgery local to me! Yay!
Holly has pitted oedema, sorry if spelt it wrong. And the vet has planned totally different investigations that make more sense then what the other surgery had planned,
Holly has had another blood test done, we are to stop the rimadyl and she is booked in first thing tomorrow for x rays and ultrasound. Vet is not overly concerned at this stage with a lump on Holly's lip that looks like she has nicked it with her tooth or something, and a lump on her leg as vets feels not related to her current state.
Vet main concern is heart failure, a low immunie system or cancer, all very worrying.
If I had stayed with first vet they wanted to biopsy a lump on her lip and lump on her leg, no x rays no ultrasound and carry on with the rimadyl.
I am so praying things aren't too serious and un treatable for my special girl, but so glad I went for the second opinion.

As unwanted as it may be the second vets diagnosis sound far more likely so the only thing to do is grit your teeth and go for the correct diagnoses then at least you will get the correct treatment. I have oedema and it has nothing to do with arthritis although I have that as well.

Totally nova, I rather have the right diognois even if it's. Not what I want to hear so holly can be treated or what ever needs to be done.
The vets has a cardiologist specialist within the group so they are well knowledges and equipped, just kick myself for not going there first ;(

It is not your fault and it sounds like they are on the right track now for her x

just kick myself for not going there first ;(

Don't do that you did what you thought was best and none of us can do any more, hindsight, as they say is a wonderful thing.

Sounds like she isn't processing the protein/albumen in her diet leading to the oedema, pitting just means that when you press it the dent stays there for a while.

I thought when arthritis was the initial diagnosis that it had come on too quickly with no history of an injury.

Hopefully the right meds can be started to get rid of the excess fluid which will be putting an extra strain on her heart and other major organs.

Keeping everything crossed that you get the right diagnosis finally.

Thanks everyone x
To top my stress levels we received the first lot of claim forms and history and there is a blatant lie on there about vet offering tramdol instead of ramadyl at the beginning of Holly's treatment but it states I declined the offer!! My husband and I were both present in the consultation room and we was never offered an alternative! I am fuming!

Sounds as if they realise their error in diagnosis and are trying to cover up, I would not expect to be given anti inflammatory for fluid retention diuretics yes and pain killers. Hope now you have a vet with the correct knowledge you can sort the matter and as both you and your husband were there I would ask them to amend their notes. Good luck.

Glad you went for the second opinion.

Fingers crossed that Holly will be quickly on the right treatment plan and the road to recovery before you know it.

Just got in from taking Holly to the vets for her scans and x rays, waiting now until this afternoon before I know anything :(

I have a question:
Do I inform my insurance company the reason why I have gone for a second opinion and the fact the there seems to be a error or can I say 'cover up' on the medication? Do the insurance company need to know? I have written letter of complaint to the Director of the Vet surgery so shall I include that in my documents to the insurance company?

Yes be up front with them as they will pursue costs against the practice once they have admitted liability :-)

Good luck for that and also the results x

Sorry but now I am really worried
Surgery just rang can't tell me anything until blood results are in to conclude with the x ray and ultrasound she had done this morning,
They given me a 6pm appt so I can't get her back tell then ;(
I.dont know what to do my youngest son 9 years old is having a sleep over at his school tonight but I worried that if it is very bad news my son won't get to say good bye I am in tears thinking the worst
What would you do?

I would try not to worry, not easy I know.

I would suggest that you ask your son what he wants to do as at that age they tend to know what they would want to do. You can always drop him off to the sleep over afterwards if he wants.

Try not to worry, even with humans they like to get all the results together before giving the diagnosis, after the past problems they will want to get this right.

They are seeing you tonight so you are not left guessing over night.

Sending healing vibes your way.

I hope the news is not as bad as you fear. We are all wishing for good news for you. The not knowing is the worst thing, once you have a definate diagnosis you can look at it in a calmer state of mind. Keep strong for her.
Aileen

Try not to worry until you have the complete diagnosis. Some Vets won't discuss everything until you are with them. Also don't beat yourself up about the first Vet, I always say that you only know how good a Vet is WHEN you have a problem. Sadly I have had an experience with a Vet (my friends) where the Vet covered up with lies about what had actually happened ( I was there so I know the truth). Glad you have made your complaint to them and yes, I would also let the insurance company know. In the meantime I will be thinking of you and hope to hear good news later.

You are there now hope all goes well x

Hope you are all ok

Holly is home!!!
X rays and ultrasound all fine
The vet believes holly has vascularitis causing the pitted edema, they have changed her medicine which includes steroids, antibiotics and tramadol, no more rimadyl.
Although they did not x ray for arthritis they would have thought the tramadol and rimadyl would have relieved the condition if she had arthritis.
I am so grateful for everyone's comments, support and advise thank you xx

Wonderful news give her a big hug from us x

Excellent news!  Hope Holly improves now x

Great news, I'm sure you're very relieved.
Here's hoping Holly makes a full recovery.
Now you can go & pour yourself a large one!

Wonderful keep us posted on her progress x
In answer to your other question which  does not need to be thought about now,  When my son was about the same age our GR was 14, we had the vet come to the house and we thought it best if we sent Son next door, he was devastated and very upset with us for not giving him the chance to say goodbye, You think you are doing the best thing you just never know!

> Holly is home!!!

Such good news, all the best to you both.

> X rays and ultrasound all fine
> The vet believes holly has vascularitis causing the pitted edema, they have changed her medicine which includes steroids, antibiotics and tramadol, no more rimadyl.
> Although they did not x ray for arthritis they would have thought the tramadol and rimadyl would have relieved the condition if she had arthritis.

So pleased to hear this - it does make you wonder what on earth the first vet was thinking!! And good on you for getting a 2nd opinion, when I am sure many people would have just taken the first vet's word for it.

So glad Holly is home :)

> they did not x ray for arthritis they would have thought the tramadol and rimadyl would have relieved the condition if she had arthritis.

Does that mean that they don't think Holly has arthritis?
Reading back through the thread Holly did show signs of improvement on the rimadly, then went downhill after the dose of rimadly was upped.
Vascularitis is a potential side-effect of rimadyl - if that is the case with Holly it would explain why they have now stopped giving it too her, but wouldn't explain why she was lame prior being prescribed it.

Well I am over the moon with Holly's improvement already,
She has Benin out in the garden on her own hardly any wondering as she walks, no hesitation in stepping out the back door anymore bless her,
She is able to get up without assistance and without much effort.
And this morning she has followed me around the house as she would normally do!
We are going for a follow up appt tomorrow and somehow I got to get a wee sample from her!
Oh and she is not wetting herself when trying to stand!
I will ask my lovely vet if arthritis is an issue, and I have sent the claim forms from the first vet that state on the last entry to carry on with rimadyl and to do biopsy on lump on lip and upper leg!

That's so good to hear, cheers us all up on a wet miserable day. Hope she continues to improve :)