Just discovered this great site and, as I'm currently considering getting a dobe, thought I'd pick the brains of any dobe experts out there.

My husband and I have been thinking about getting a dog for ages - the only thing stopping us was that we both work full time which clearly isn't compatible with responsible dog ownership. However, dear husband has just injured his arm (two severed tendons - ouch) and will be off work for about five months. He's a lecturer, so when he's likely to be fit enough to return, he'll hit the summer vacation, so basically he's going to be at home until October. Ever desperate for a dog, I've decided this is the ideal opportunity to get a puppy - hubby home all day and can spend lots of time socializing and training the wee one, and I'm back in the evening / available weekends to take care of anything which requires a bit of muscle / two arms. What to do in October tho...? Well, our plan is to locate an appropriately skilled "child minder" over the summer, who is willing to mind the dog while my husband and I are at work, when hubby returns to work full time in October. We will agree a suitable payment for the "childminder", who will be thoroughly interrogated to make sure that he/she is knowledgeable, responsible, shares similar views on training (positive affirmation) etc etc, and most importantly, is willing to provide a second home-from-home for the dog.

Ok ... people do it with their kids - is this such a bad idea with a dog, as long as a routine is established?! Your feedback would be much appreciated ...

Second query ... I've done heaps of research on breeds, and the one breed that both my husband and I are really keen on is the dobe. The need to carry out a structured socialization and training programme for this particular breed really appeals, plus the fact that I'd love a jogging companion (when she/he's old enough), plus the fact that my husband goes hiking/camping, and would like a friendly canine to tag along, plus the fact that dobes are pretty gorgeous looking creatures. I've only ever owned collies/rescued mongrels before as a child, tho did care full time for a rottie for a year when I was doing a year out. I've done a fair bit of reading on dobes, and surfed the net to try and establish whether they deserve their reputation, but would really like to hear some practical info from people who own these dogs. For instance, proper socialization and the need to locate a good breeder etc aside, has anyone here had any difficulties with unpredictability or aggression in dobes? As long as visiting friends were properly introduced, would the dobe be likely to be untrustworthy with (friendly) strangers around? If I decided to have kids in three or so years time, is the dobe likely to get jealous or view the child as part of the family? Do people find male or female dobes make the best pets?

I'm really excited at the thought of finally being able to get a dog, but want to make sure it's the right choice for us both ... so any info that people think might be helpful would be very much appreciated.

PS Also about to contact the Kennel Club for list of breeders and Doberman Society's contact details. If, however, anyone could recommend any reputable breeders (for whom temperament is a key issue) who may have puppies available that they could put me in touch with, that would be great. I would of course expect to be quizzed about future care, training etc etc ...

Thanks

Jo

Hi there:)
I'm not an expert ( by any stretch of the imagination )but I have a 15mth old Dobe ( murphy )
I can only speak for my self and say how I have found it to be --Hard work !!
They are very active dogs Mind and body ,always looking for something new to do and they will always find something !

I found from 6 months onwards to be the hardest part as he was trying to assert his dominance and was just generally naughty ( and there is the understatment of the year ;) )

He has needed firm but fair,consistant handling and training every day -he is not perfect ( as people on this site will confirm ) but it is only in the last month that we are starting to see a difference in him and there has been alot of hard work gone into that !

If you are going to get a child minder then their level of commitment has got to be as high as yours -if not higher--you don't want them to pack in and leave you with an 8 month banshee

I have found my Dobe to be friendly to anyone we allow into the house ,very good with children ...if a little boisterous at times:)
My lad has never shown any aggresion -and I have no qualms about him with my own children - I would not leave him ( or any dog ) unnattended with visiting children .
As I said they are great dogs but not ones to be left alone - is your minder going to be available for the next 3-4 yrs ( thats presuming you stay home after having children ) or for the rest of the dogs life ??

I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to put you off but I would think long and hard ,I am at home all day and I am not a weak willed person but this last 12 months has been a challenge ( to put it mildly ) and I have considered getting rid of him on more than one occasion .
I'm sure there will be some others along soon with their opinions
Liz :)

Hi Jo

Not an expert but certainly experienced!

You seem to have thought things through although as Liz said above if you get a Dobe in the near future you will be "leaving" him or her at (one of) the more difficult times - these being every month from 5 to 22 plus the odd few for the rest of their lives :) Dobermanns are not a dog that can safely be left alone at home if your dog-minder lets you down for some reason so you will need at least one backup plan as well (starting a family now should do it :) )

I gather your husband gets the camping urge at the strangest times of year (IMO) and should mention that Dobes are single coated and might need some additional protection if out in the wilds at this time of year.

As to dog or bitch - this is down to personal preference, I know some people won't sell a male to a first time owner although I don't necessarily agree with this as some bitches can be a darn sight more hard work than a male although the dogs are that much bigger and therefore stronger and can also be male aggressive.

They are frequently aloof with strangers and this is quite correct although some are very friendly and will make a fuss of almost anyone.

Ensure any pups you enquire about have vWD tested parents - providing at least one parent is clear of this disease then puppies cannot be affected and the more reputable breeders are trying to eradicate it from the breed although this will take a few generations so we don't deplete the genepool in doing so.

Other tests for Dobermanns include Hip scoring (breed mean average - 10) and Eye testing for PHPV although not many people do this as they don't perceive it as a problem in our breed (but if no-one tests then we don't know!)

Training - yes, definitely! Right from the beginning constantly and consistently.

The Kennel Club list puppies available from KC registered parents, and this site has quite a few breeders listed as do some of the 10 UK Dobe clubs

If you have any specific questions please do not hesitate to ask

Christine

Yep I agree. I had Dobes for about 10 years and as wonderful as I think they are, Dobes are definately not for the faint hearted. They need a lot of time, effort and hard work put in. They will wreck your house and howl if you leave them alone all day. It's quite difficult to find a breeder who does all of the necessary health checks, but I wouldn't get one from a breeder that doesn't get them carried out (one of the reasons why my next Dobe has been put on hold), it could well be October before you find the right one anyway.

Clair

Thanks for the info everyone ... this is the sort of stuff you can't find easily in a reference book! The need to ensure that the dog minder is as committed as my husband and I will be is a huge issue for me, because although I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to find someone who's got the necessary time, energy and confidence, I doubt it'll be easy <grimace> and inevitably, there may be the odd day when the minder lets me down. Having had a few problem rescue dogs in the past, I couldn't bear the responsibility of bringing one into the world myself!

If I we decide to get a dog with a little less oomph, it'll be less of a problem ... but also less of a dobe! Need to think on this one ...

The other breed my husband and I are keen on is the Giant Schnauzer ... but there isn't a huge amount of info available on its temperament. It may well present the same pros and cons as a dobe, as its a working dog with a fairly assertive personality. Any experiences anyone?

Thanks

Jo

Hi Jo,
Congrats on your long and hard considerations :) I'm not a dobe fancier, but I've read enough about Mockodile, Liz's 'pup', and others on here to have GREAT respect for those who survive the trials and tribulations :) :)

Instead of a puppy, have you considered rehoming a dobe that's a bit older? There are probably quite a few in rescue or returned to breeder that are well bred, but their owners just did not realize or could not handle the handful they are. :( There are also those that need homes because of an event --- children, divorce, job loss, death, moving, etc...

Your time constraints are rather limited for a puppy who will need 2 years of close atten. Whereas 5-8 months of work on an unruly adolescent or young adult might be doable. Kerioak would be able to advise better on this subject than I ever could. ;) :D :D

A comment on your 'other' choice... Giant Schnauzers. Great dogs :) But they need just as much training as a dobe + steady intensive grooming. That coat takes a lot of time to maintain.

They also have a long adolescence, and NEED very much to be socialized. Formal training is a must. I see quite a few adolescents over here with their owners visiting restaurants and large events with people/other dogs as 'training' expeditions. They are a very strong dog. Those that I've met who've had one, basically has him/her accompanying them all day long to work or around the house. They don't handle being alone that well. And a large powerful dog that's bored can wreak untold havoc on your house :rolleyes: ;)

If you look into a Standard Schnauzer, you'll get a similar temperment without the giant size. :)
Don't forget too, the larger the dog breed, the more cautious you have to be on exercise until they reach maturity. Even then, there always seems to be a concern about hips and knees.

Just to let you know... A small (not toy) or medium breed can jog comfortably along with you as long as they've been 'conditioned' and many dogs would love the opportunity to go camping ;) Mine do and they're 16-19 pounds. In fact, 19 pound Chienne can do about 3-4 miles running and trotting alongside my bike 3 times a week during the summer :) :D :D
hth and good luck on your quest :) :)
toodles

Thank you for your thoughtful post! Have managed to find a bit more info on the net (it's amazing how many dog lovers there are out there!) which confirms your points on the Giant Schnauzer. Great dogs, intelligent, full of personality and assertive, but its harder to establish that closeness that one can get with a dobe. Have been thinking long and hard on this issue and have to admit that the dobie is and always will be my favorite. Anyway, have got lots of breeders' contact numbers so going to do a ring around tomorrow to pick some more brains.

I'm actually moving house in a week's time, so plan to ingratiate myself with the new neighbours and start putting out some feelers to see whether there is anyone who lives locally who is willing and able to get involved. Hubby has just read a book on puppy training and is getting wildly optimistic ideas about the sort of things we will be able to teach the dog. Not only fetching the slippers but putting the kettle on and making a cup of tea too!

Thanks

Jo

Hi Jo19
They are not my breed I must admit but I know (I should say l knew)someone who has had them for years and works with them. I notice you say about the closeness.

His dog is like a second skin, you only have to watch it with him for a few minuets to see that but it only comes with proper training. If you use training methods which are drive stimuation methods then you will have the dog in an out of sight down stay for several minuets at around 9 months, the best obedience training period, but if you don't get proper training then your dog will do nothing and it wil be its own master and yours as well, it is the training which builds your relationship (with all dogs).

I have'nt seen a lot about to watch them compared to his they just have an attitude towards the owner as if he is some kind of accessory, I would say stay away from reward only classes when your training him and and find a reward based class with corrections AND which teaches you train on drives stimulation, the drives are the dogs total psycholgy and if a training class is not teaching them then its a poor quality class. If they don't teach corrections as well as drives then stay away, not an easy dog I think but an outright wonderfull one if you can train them.

Debate on Drive Stimulation Techniques continued here

We have a Dobe in our WT group, trained in reward based methods, and she's doing very well - in fact her owner won an award a couple of months ago at a WT for having the BEST controlled dog!!!!! And there's lot of BCs and GSD's at WT's.So keep well away from anything reward based as it doesn't work (sarcasm hopefully apparent here. :p :p :p)

The methods used by her owner to show she has done something unacceptable are ones similar to those i would use, such as being put back in the car, or "losing" a reward. These are powerful "punishments" but don't involve any kind of physical correction, which I presume is what you mean.....please put me right if i have got the wrong end of the stick :)

The Dobe's owner also handles a Rehab clasS in which there are several very powereful male Dobes, (plus others) and all are improving very well due to her methods. Ive seen this many times for myself on the walks with the Rehab group and through discussing the Dobes with their owners. Of course she doesnt' use an E collar, maybe that is the difference :) but she does use a citronella collar.

i really don't mean to be rude here, but if your friend uses the training methods that you have discussed before, then the reason his Dobes watch him and are like a second skin is surely because they are worried about getting anything wrong, in case they get a "zap".

Even Sheila Booth, who is well versed in understanding the drives, and helped to write the book on Schutzhund Drive training, with Gottfried wotsisname, concedes positive methods work very well and now uses them in both Schutzhund and agility :)

Lindsay

Hi Jo
I have two Dobes myself and three kids and another on the way! (Many people query my sanity but there you go! :D )
I have to say that there is no other dog for me - I am totaly Dobe mad and have always wanted them since I was a small child. I have always been taken with their looks, intelligence and all the dobes I have known have been really friendly. So far so good - We got our first dobe 2 1/2 years ago and no amount of books can tell you what its like (just like kids) He really is a superb dog but certainly was hard work. when he got to 10 months he was very difficult - tore up the garden, took an intense dislike of a particular pair of curtains that he would sneakly rip down when I was not looking - even chewed a brick wall (inside the house!) two weeks before we moved house - BUT he is smart and lovable and great with the kids and thakfully with ALOT of patience (and much gritted cursing!!!) he grew out of it all - now he's like butter wouldn't melt!!! Fools - we thought aahh he's lovely, he couldn't have been that bad and so we now have our second addition and have been swiftly reminded that he really was that bad <g>. Dizzy is very sweet natured but can't be left alone for a minute but at least we no longer have a decent garden to be ruined or have any luxury items in it (like flowers!) and the grass is patchy at best but we do find that the holes that have been dug make for an interesting landscape!!! :D :D We do have the added bonus of knowing for a fact that eventually she to will also calm down and has the best of temperments. Diz and Salem are inseperable and adore all my children and are worth all the time (repair bills,stress,muddy floors........)that we have had to put into them and they repay it tenfold!
I would say that as a breed they make great companions, who can make you laugh and curse and are not for the faint hearted or for people who give up easily!!
If you are definatly looking for a dobe consider the pros and cons of a puppy or/and older dobe can sometimes fit in better with your lifestyle. Christine @ Kerioak is our resident expert who could help out with contacts and stuff and there are also all us resident Dobe sufferers ( sorry - lovers! :D) here too!
Best of luck with which ever you decide
Sharon :)

Yes Sheila Booth and Godrie Dildei, they are extreamly experienced Schutzhund judges, they don't just use reward based techniqes 'now' they and all people who are succesfull in their dog training have always used reward based training, as do I and as I was taught.

For reasons unknown to me you have said they 'now'use them. That is incorrect they have always used them. There is also a sort of in between the lines implication in your post which implies neither use corrections, that is not the case. All dogs dureing the 'teaching' phases of OBEDIENCE commands are taught by positive techniques, this is the stage of TEACHING the dog what is wanted.

When they reach a point when corrections beneifit them then the corrections must be (a) appropriate, that is disrupt the behaviour of the individual dog concerned and the level of drive it is at the time (b) the consistency must be 100% (c) by skilled training the corrections stimulate the rank element of the pack drive and the pack drive as a whole. Sheila Booth uses prong collars when this stage is reached but for reasons unknown to me you did not mention that.

I am writing best I can on drive stimulation to answere two posts, but I find it difficult to explain in writing as I was taught on a personal course and with demonstrations.

No the person who trained me is not a freind at all, he is a trainer and the dogs attention is a part of the relationship by useing drive stimulation techniques as the drive is long since developed the obedience training is long gone.

As I said I am attempting to write some description of drive stimulation techniques, but I find it difficult, and as you have implied you undertstand E collar use can you please also give a description of how they are used and any other relevant information on them.

One important, probably the most, I want to mention is the fact that I notice a citreonela collar is mentioned. There are a lot of recent concerns about them as the cirus or mustard juice extract has not been tested for eye safety and vapours to a greater or lesser degree must go into the eyes. The citrus extract is from a plant in the far east and is the same as the stuff used for insect reppelant, I would not spray that around my dogs eyes and some dogs have herditory eye problems anyway, no warning is on them

I look forwards to hearing about your descriptions of how E collars are used.
Thanks.

Whooops, I forgot, can you please copy and paste where I said "keep well away from anything reward based as it doesn't work ", or was that an accidental misrepresentation (therby changing the meaning) of what I said.

I'm getting quite worried now, I'm looking for another dobe pup, but everyone keeps saying how much hard work they can be! I have had two dobes in the last 16 years, both girls, and they were both an absolute dream to own. I took them to puppy classes and trained them, they were great both on and off the lead, neither of them had a bad bone in their body. They loved other dogs, loved children and showed not an ounce of aggression. Apart from once when my last one found herself in next doors hen hut ooops, she didn't savage the chicken she plucked it! It was oven ready when she had finished with it, but not dead and no blood. But they could both be trusted to be alone in the house and not wreck it. Have I been lucky do you think with my dobes? And should I not expect to get a golden girl again?
Jaffa

Further to above. I think what I should say about all correction techniques is that if people have been to reward ONLY classes and have not been taught corrections (whatever corrections) which develop the pack drive then you do need to go to a trainer and take a course.

I would not really recomend corrections of any kind read from a book or equivilent no more than reward techniques, different thing in reallity.

Jaffa -Don't worry
You've had two -you know what your'e in for :D
I believe there is a difference between dogs and bitches but as Kerioak says not always ;)
My Murph has been hard work but he's lovely and not at all aggressive
Go for it and re-join the clan :D
Liz :)

Debate on Drive Stimulation Techniques continued here