Hello Ive been reading these forums for a little while as a guest and I thought that I would now introduce myself. I had planned to breed my dogs, they are both tested but I was waiting on the next season before breeding because my bitch isnt quite 2 years old, to be fair though she will be 2 a week before she whelps, so mother nature (and my children) had different ideas.
Anyway my children let them both out for the toilet not realising I was keeping them apart for a reason and this resulted in a tie. I was going to get the mismate injection but upon research I decided against that route and have decided it best to go ahead with the possible pending litter.
The first tie was on day 11 (22/06/2012) so they obviously knew what they were doing, they then tied again on day 12 and 13 just once on each day but my question is, he is still wanting to get at her even this morning and she is still standing for him and flagging so do I leave them to mate for as long as they are willing or do I need to be separating them ?

Another question I have is that when they tied the first time my poor girl squealed and cried a bit which I expected. Then the next time she was silent but she has taken to crying again now, what does that mean ? Also when my boy has tied and he turns himself around he still seems to be humping for quite a while afterwards. Infact I noticed he was humping slightly right up to separating, is this normal ?

Can I ask what research led you to decide against giving her the mismate injection ?

Also if the first tie was an accident what were the second and third ties and who was supervising as they should not be left alone to get on with it ?

Apart from the health tests what other research having you being doing in relation to the care of the bitch during the pregnancy during whelping and post whelping care of the bitch and resulting puppies ?

I read a lot of post online, some of them on here of puppies that had still been born but had some sort of deformities. Also dogs that had one huge puppy resulting in a c-section. Also the increased risk of pyrometry, we were going to breed her on her next season anyway and we didnt want the injection to interfere with that in any way so we decided against it.  The second and third ties were both supervised by myself and my husband, I would never leave them to just 'get on with it'.
I have been researching breeding and care for just over 6 months now, I also have a friend who breeds my breed and has done for many years. He said he is willing to help me with whatever problems might arise.

"Also if the first tie was an accident what were the second and third ties and who was supervising as they should not be left alone to get on with it ?"

Must admit that puzzled me a bit, you said your kids let them out to toilet without you realising? Three times? And you just stood and watched them instead of stopping it? Seems a bit odd.

I'd go for the mismate, much cheaper than a litter, where you will be lucky to break even :)

Im finding your tone very rude. After the first tie both myself and my husband spoke at length of the risk and as shes now 22 months old she will be 2 years old by the time the litter is born we didnt see any issues. The second and third tie were then supervised. We had always intended too mate them it just happened a season earlier than expected. I also know the cost of raising a successful litter and the costs if things should go wrong and im fully prepared for that. I intend to get her scanned at around 29-35 days and go from there.

What are your breed club rules on age of whelping?

The mismate injections (Alizin) are best given when the season has finished, so my advice would be to keep the two apart till she's out of season, have the injections to prevent conception (the embryos don't implant for about 21 days) and mate her on the next season or the one after that.

My apologies, I didn't mean to offend you, I was just a little confused; I posted before you'd posted a reply to the previous post.

I think you have read OLD info. The old style misalliance injection could cause all sorts of problems and therefore 10 years ago I decided against it myself, for all the reasons you have given. However the modern Alizin causes none of these problems (and can be given for a much longer time period as well) so there is no reason not to use it. I used it on a bitch once and she went on to have a litter of 9 the next season, no problems at all.

Both bitches and dogs can easily get injured during the tie if either moves even a bit, hence it is important to have two people available to hold both still for the duration of the tie. That could explain the squealing if the first mating was not held?

I will be going ahead with this litter as already discussed with my husband :) I didnt come here to be badgered into having my decision undone. I came for help and advice, I havent seen anybody answer any of my questions in the original post as yet.

Many maiden bitches will squeal and some will continue to sing at each tie so long as they are supervised and held it could just be that this is the case. Personally I would now keep them seperated if you do not intend to give the mismate injection. Three ties is more than ample to produce a litter. You cannot mention the breed concerned but can you give us some idea of the size which could be relevant to the advice given.

GoldMali, as soon as the kids shouted what the dogs were doing I ran downstairs and outside to see him just turning himself around. Both myself and my husband held them both together as we are fully aware that they can cause injury to both parties. I sat on the floor and soothed her whilst holding her still.

SatinCollie they are a medium breed, around the same size as a border collie :)

What are your breed club rules on the age of whelping? Mine forbids whelping before the age of 2 years, for example (sadly reduced from forbidding mating before the age of 2 years :-( )

Whatever you have decided you should still keep them apart from now on till the end of the season to prevent accidental injury, and also limit any confusion over expected whelping dates.

My bitch squealed the first time. I stick to two or three matings a day or two apart depending on how the matings went. After that i separate my bitch from all dogs for two to three weeks until she stops excepting him. Im a firm believer in what will be will be, so if it doesn't happen this time keep reading and researching to next time. Treat your bitch as pregnant until you know otherwise. When i first started i kept a diary of everything from first mated until the day the puppies left. This included days mated, behavior changes, food intake etc. Found this so helpful to look back on. Set bitch/ puppy rules now for kids, house guests and husbands (ie not mixing the dogs for the next few weeks, allowing your bitch quiet time etc)
I hope you get the outcome you want :)

Whether it is wise to continue this does depend on the breed so I will not comment on that.

Would stop all matings as the chance of infection increases with each one.

The bitch may have started squealing again because she has damage or infection.

As you obviously took a lot of time and research to make sure the pair you bought were suitable to be mated one to the other it does seem a shame you have allowed this miss mate to change your long term plans meaning your having to rush your arrangements for the whelping - however you have obviously decided to continue with this error so I would now start on your preparations for the whelp and stop the dog having further contact with the bitch. Do not forget to check those on your waiting list are able to take the hoped for pups 6 months earlier than you and they expected.

Age restrictions is a matter of ethics and in your case will not have an effect on registration providing both the parents are registered and do not have endorsements, but the age of the bitch may not be to the liking of your prospective owners but as she is of medium size they may well accept this as although not ideal it should not cause any problems.

Not replying to anyone in particular, but personally, I can't see a problem in having a medium sized bitch whelp at just turned two. It certainly won't do her any harm physically.

Often large breeds are slower to mature, mentally as well as physically and many of their breed clubs codes of ethics reflect this. And breed clubs' ethics will be taking account of any age-related health tests too. So OP, I guess it all depends on what your breed clubs say for your breed. And good luck with your upcoming litter.

I have contact the prospective owners and many have said that it isnt an issue to them they are also happy, infact some are quite pleased to be having their new family members earlier than expected. She is fully mature being 22 months. I dont have any endorsements on either of them.

What you haven't mentioned is have the relevant health tests for the breed been completed for them both (your very lucky to own the perfect sire for your bitch, most of us have to travel sometimes abroad to get the best bloodlines).

As this is sooner than expected will the people on your waiting list still want to go ahead earlier?

It is very unwise to breed a litter in the current economic climate without at least half a dozen bookings for puppies,a and expect some of these to fade away, so you need to actively advertise and get more on your list from now to birth.  Not having homes already lined up for the puppies takes away a lot of the enjoyment of having a litter, it just adds more worry on top of the hard work.

Also what is your breed clubs code of conduct re litters, as a novice breeder you would be wise not to alienate yourself from one of the main sources of good puppy enquiries from people seriously researching the breed.

Well apart from having to change your plans and move everything forward there seems to be no problem but do keep that dog and the children away from her for a few weeks now and start putting your whelping plans into action although you will not know until she is scanned you will still need to treat her as if she is in whelp and off course if you work let your employer know when you will need time off work as it may well coincide with other peoples holidays and to have staff missing for at least 8 week can be a problem, hopefully you don't work so you may be able to manage with just a few days off for your husband.

I agree with what the others have said, none of us intend our comments to come over as nasty, we are passionate about breeding and raising pups that no one is going to suffer, hence the suggestions of getting the mis mate jab this time and wait till your planned mating at her next season. The pain she had on the third mating maybe because she is passed her optimum time and her vulva is getting harder to get past, the male is still getting her scent and some bitches are floozies and would mate from day 1 given the chance, some "breeders" will put the bitch and stud together for the whole 3 weeks and leave them to get on with it, they don't know if a tie happened, when etc., they then don't when or if to expect pups. Dont allow more than 3 days for matings as it extends the dates for when they are likely to whelp, personally I do 2 matings 48hrs apart, I usually use an outside stud and have travelled 200miles stayed at a B&B or with the stud owner for a couple of nights to use the right stud.

If she is pregnant then you have 9 short weeks to get everything in place for the whelping and rearing of the pups. You need to have the bitch confined to an area which makes her feel safe and the kids can't access unaccompanied as letting themselves or the stud dog into this area can have the dam either attacking them or her pups.

I don't know your breed, are there manditary health tests your breeds need before being bred fromand have they been done with good results?

I researched and prepared for 7yrs before having my first litter and I am a trained nurse/midwife, delivered two lots of kittens so wasn't completely green but was still worried, my bitch had sailed through her previous whelping for her breeder so I had her past whelping history but who knows as each whelping is different and puppy size can vary depending on the stud used.

I hope all goes well for her and any pending pups.

Personally I wouldn't worry a lot about the age and in my breed club it is bitch aged 2 OR third season whichever is soonest, what I would however worry about is time of year. Pups will be ready to go end of October and a lot of people don't want puppies during the winter as it makes housetraining etc so hard. My last large breed litter was extremely hard to sell, the stud dog owner and I had to keep 5 pups between us, and one reason was the time of year. Agility people sometimes prefer winter as it is when there aren't any competitions on, but pet people will most often look for a pup in spring/summer.

Thankyou all for your advice. Both dogs have had all the tests done as I said i had already planned to breed them. I will keep you all updated and of course if I have any questions I will ask. For now I will be reading this forum page by page :)

Brainless i did mention that they had been tested. Both are hip scored and eye tested :)

Look forward to reading about her progress and of course any queries you may have.

Both are hip scored and eye tested :-)

You are fortunate if that is all that is required for your breed but as we don't know the breed we can't say. Were their ancestors results acceptable as well, if not you would be well advised to point this out to the purchasers as not all understand how to look these things up.

But as you say you can return to sort out the arrangements now needed for the bitches whelp not sure but as it is a long while since I whelped a bitch but would think you need to start to change the arrangements for food and worming soon.

My breed is fortunately a breed with very few problems. Im guessing maybe because they are a breed with very little human interference. I watched a programme about the truth about pedigree dogs and was disgusted to see  the health issues some of these breeds have purely because of human interference ! 

I think I can guess the breed , or one of two anyway, in which case hip scoring and eye testing is spot on. Lots of breeds don't require anything else.

That may have been but to be fair it showed CKCS fihaving seizures  because their skulls were too small, and the way that Bulldogs are being bred with shorter and shorter snouts, sharpei's being bred to have more and more wrinkles. I can accept that many were possibly not health tested but those sort of breeds that are health tested dont differ greatly looks wise and so must surely suffer the same sort of problems.

That may have been but to be fair it showed CKCS fihaving seizures  because their skulls were too small, and the way that Bulldogs are being bred with shorter and shorter snouts, sharpei's being bred to have more and more wrinkles. I can accept that many were possibly not health tested but those sort of breeds that are health tested dont differ greatly looks wise and so must surely suffer the same sort of problems.

Sorry don't understand this post? Can you explain what you are meaning/asking? We were talking health, you are talking construction two very different things and although they both require a good knowledge of the breed in general and the ancestry in particular even if they are, as I said, very different matters they do both need research when deciding on a dog suitable for breeding.

Someone asked if the programme I was talking about was the programme where they used untested pedigree dogs as an example. They seem to have deleted it so my answer wont make any sense now other than to the person who posted the question in the first place :)

That may have been but to be fair it showed CKCS fihaving seizures  because their skulls were too small

Totally incorrect. Syringomyelia does not cause seizures, and the main cause is not the skull being too small for the brain. (Just look at them -few breeds have such a broad head as a Cavalier does!) See this is what sensationalist TV does -give people the wrong ideas. If you buy a Cavalier pup from parents/grandparents MRI scanned clear at the correct age (here is a breed that msut NEVER be bred from before the age of 2 ½) there's nothing to worry about as far as SM goes.

>They seem to have deleted it so my answer wont make any sense now other than to the person who posted the question in the first place :-)

I'm sorry, I deleted the post because I thought it was likely to take your thread off topic, and the answers to your original questions would be swamped. Sorry!

Well as I have never researched CKCS I dont know the health issues that they have, I was simply going off what the programme said. I have however researched my breed at great lengths :)

The great problem with that programme is that it gave biased misinformation, which has clearly been believed. :-( But as I say, let's not take your thread off at a tangent!

LOL JG no wonder I was confused - though I was having a senior moment......again!

Still does bring up the need to know both the breed and the breeding pairs very well and back a good number of years. If the G.G. Grandfather had seizure you need to know about it as you do for any health or construction problems, don't know if that is what you were talking about as I did not read the post that caused the response I did not understand.

It really is not a good idea to do research via the media you will only be misinformed. Research must be carried out via your breed journals and those within the breed, lots of visits to shows or trials and lots of talk with those who are experienced.

Nova I have no intention of researching any other breed but my own which I have already done at length, My breed isnt a breed you just decide upon. I needed to do a lot of research as to whether they were suitable for us as a family to begin with due to being a very difficult breed.  I was merely replying to a post thats now been deleted so its irrelevant now anyhow.

I love the way the cavalier always gets highlighted when health issues crop up. In spite of what many people now believe, most cavaliers live happy and healthy lives with an average live span of around 10 -12, comparable with most breeds. You mention the bulldog, that has a lifespan of around 6 years.
I don't know your breed, but if it is the one I am thinking of, is elbow scoring not also recommended?
Re SM, I thought the latest research (from studies of the countless MRI scans that have now been carried out) did indeed suggest that skull shape was implicated, as originally believed.

Edited as just seen the OP's latest post, not the breed I was thinking of then!

No Cavlover, the required tests are hips and eyes although some breeders do additionally test elbows but it isnt a requirement.

> it showed CKCS having seizures  because their skulls were too small, and the way that Bulldogs are being bred with shorter and shorter snouts, sharpei's being bred to have more and more wrinkles.

Actually I have been around in dogs since the last breed came into the UK and the improvement and reduction in loud breathing and wrinkle has been amazing in just 20 years.  Though casual back yard/commercial breeders will breed from anything and the public like the wrinklier the better.

Bulldog breeders have been moving toward less exaggeration, and conscientious Cavalier breeders are now MRI scanning (but this doesn't guarantee freedom of problems, it's just an indication).  Of course changes take time, took time to get this way almost unnoticed, and will take just as long to reverse the trends.

Considering that they have been trying to tackle the biggest problem in the breed, heart troubles, is it any wonder that they have stumbled into this issue more, they re not alone the very act of miniaturisation has given rise to a tendency (the skulls aren't too small per se, but there is a narrowing causing pressure in some dogs).

You can bet none of the puppy farmers or casual breeders where this breed is a firm favourite bother with any health testing, (yet even there the breed overweight, with dicky tickers manage to live a long life) but the show side where it is easy to trace things gets the blame, and the impression is that the breed has gone to the edge of viability/extinction, patently untrue.

When there is no clear -pattern of inheritance or even a definitive diagnosis technique (lets face it the average vet doesn't have an MRI scanner), issues can remain hidden until the incidence becomes significant.  Also this issue is not confined to this bred or even just toy breeds, so not really anything to do with a small skull (after all Cavaliers are one of the largest of the toy breeds).

I too have a natural and healthy breed.  The only eye condition we were tested for was PRA  and we had extremely low incidence, but we finally got a DNA test and so many were found to be carriers, the only reason incidence of affecteds was so low as it is a late onset condition (some dogs don't live long enough to go blind, even at 15), and because most individuals would not sire many litters, or have many litters, so the chance of two carriers meeting is less.  We have had cases of Glaucoma, sadly open angle so no way of testing for it, and not enough cases to prove inheritacne one way or another, so we aren't even on the under investigation schedule of the eye scheme.

If we take any sensationalist journalism we would believe that the country is full of wife beaters, child molesters and that care homes mistreat the elderly on mass.  Sadly these things happen but are a small percentage.

> Well my breed certainly isn't for everyone, they have no recall, they shed copious amounts of fur, they are extremely stubborn, escape artists, can be very destructive if not exercised enough.

and if it's the breed I am thinking of, have such a large rescue problem (the breed clubs rescue have had to close their doors) that they are nearly the new Staffie in that respect, having been bred as a result of a demand caused by their looks and appearance in media, much as the Dalmatian,  before them, etc.

Anyone choosing to breed such an over exploited breed really needs a good reason to do so other than just wanting to have puppies, and be sooo extra careful re homing and expect to have to rehabilitate young adults that get returned when the owners can't cope, due to underestimating the difficulties.

Also this issue is not confined to this bred or even just toy breeds, so not really anything to do with a small skull (after all Cavaliers are one of the largest of the toy breeds).

A Cavalier breeder I know once ran into a Saint Bernard with SM at the vet's!

They will only be going to owners who already have knowledge in the breed. I do have a lot of contacts and a list of people waiting for a puppy from my bitch :)

OK, I've just worked out what breed this is too(I think!lol).  I hope you do have a waiting list or at least start one right now.  I know of a well-bred litter from a very experienced breeder(in the breed at least 30yrs) who both show's and works her dogs and she is sitting with 3x 12 week old puppies still waiting for homes.  Gorgeous pups of different colours/markings and even the 'rare' eye colour(lol) but still they can't shift them.  Price has reduced now so I've seen recently but they still have 3.
In this climate, I wouldn't consider a litter unless I had a good few definate homes.  All you need to do is check websites of your breed or the crappy ads to see how many people are being left with pups.
I hope it works out how you want it.
Best wishes

I am even more confused,what I thought was the breed is someones user name and my last post has disappearred.

I have no intention of researching any other breed but my own

You must have misunderstood me, I did not suggest that you should. You say your breed is difficult, difficult in what way?

Northernlight, we only mated my bitch the once as we thought it might be a smaller litter. She had 11, though unfortunately one was stillborn so we raised 10. I wonder if she would have had more if we'd mated her more than once!

All the best for your litter, I shall enjoy hearing about it even though I have no plans to breed again.