Hi Guys

I was hoping that someone out there will be able to give me some good sound advice about the following.
Back in December 2011 my friends son and his partner seperated and she was left holding their daughter and the new 3 month puppy (he's a husky/collie cross).  She wasn't coping very well and I offered to help her out with the dog for a few weeks.  Well we are now almost at the end of June 2012 and the puppy (or should I say now almost fully grown dog) is still with us.  I have tried contacting her on numerous occassions via phone/email and asking her what she intended to do and she has not responded.  I did hear through a 3rd party that she wasn't sure what to do. 
My question is, who does the dog legally belong to?  We have had him for 6 months and are about to have him castrated (as he is almost a year old now).  He has totally bonded with us and our other 2 dogs and I am concerned (for the dog) that if she turned up tomorrow and decided she wanted to have him back she could do so and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it.  I would also like to point out that at no time has she contributed financially to any of his keep.  He's such a gem (but it did take a lot of hard work to get him there) and I worry that should she be allowed to take him back, not only does she not have the time for him, he was always kept shut out in a run, not exercised and was very distructive.... he had a massive nipping problem.  We have overcome all these hurdles and he seems happy and contented an now my fear is that all the hard work done could be undo and the dog would end up being neglected.... any advice would be really appreciated

Legally various things will be taken into consideration. If the original owner can show proof they paid for the dog that is in their favour, but otherwise courts will take into account who the dog lives with, who pays for food and vet bills (make sure you have vet bills saved!), if the dog is registered with a vet with the person it lives with, if the microchip is in the name and address of where it is living etc. Basically, the more proof you have that you have had the dog for the majority if its life, the better your claim is. I'm pretty certain I also remember something along the lines of this could count as the dog having been abandoned (was not collected, no expenses paid) and therefore ownership is automatically relinquished. If you want it all from the horse's mouth, call Trevor Cooper the dog law solicitor -my info comes from a seminar with him that I attended last month. http://www.doglaw.co.uk

I'm pretty certain I also remember something along the lines of this could count as the dog having been abandoned (was not collected, no expenses paid

The dog legitimately belonged to your friends son and wife/partner, who are nothing to do with you and did not ask for you to 'foster' the dog, their mum did, so legally yes you can use the defence that Goldmali has explained above.

The son and daughter would have to sue their mum for giving the dog to you.

However for the sake of your friendship with their mum I would get a paper written up and ask them to sign the dog over, if they don't and one of them decides they want the dog back then you can stand your ground, but keep in mind many people go through tough times and ask for help, you've done a wonderful thing and sometimes once settled people can then take back their dogs and you will forever be in their debt, it's what friends and family do for one another so don't just look at this from your own side. :-)

You have to weigh that up,  if your friend is still left with the baby I doubt they would want the dog anyway, but you need to get the paper signed so that you all know where you stand and the dog knows what it's future is. :-)

He is still too young to castrate and as he isn't legally yours you could have problems having irreversible surgery done on him without the owners consent.

Can the mother in law of this girl not help out re communication, I take it she is still seeing her grandchild and could broach the subject for you.

As he isn't KC registered you can't ask them to intervene on your behalf.

I hope you get things sorted soon.

He is still too young to castrate and as he isn't legally yours you could have problems having irreversible surgery done on him without the owners consent.

Ah but that is the question -if by law the dog has been abandoned, then the original owner no longer has any claim on him at all. Daft as it may sound, if for instance your dog strays, is picked up by a council kennel and not collected within the legal 7 days (whether you knew it was there or not!), then you have in law abandoned your dog and has therefore lost ownership of it.

whatever the outcome...I would set out a kenneling/feeding bill for the origional owner, and any other expenses incured.  present that to her . she may then sign him over to you.

Yes tadog, that is a good idea and would certainly put anyone off wanting their dog back,

But, I don't know......... doesn't anyone just do things like this as a favour to help people anymore...... I know I had my brothers two GSD's for nearly 2yrs whilst he had a relationship breakdown and was out at work all day and I can't tell you how closely I bonded with those dogs, it broke my heart when he married and the dogs went home to my now sister-in-law but I would never in my wildest dreams take someone's dog, I've helped friends too when they have had difficulties, it is what people should do for one another and they have always trusted me to give their dogs back.

The mum has trusted our op with the dog, probably not thinking she may want it.

If no-one has visited the pup at all and shown no interest I guess it would make me think they didn't want it (if the case) but maybe there are reasons?

I understand the OP she has bonded with the dog and loves it now, but sometimes doing a favour can cost our hearts.

A definitive answer is needed as to whether she is still a fosterer or can have this dog for me that is the only answer needed right now.

Unfortunately the dogs legally belongs to the owner but the foster has a right to claim  for resonable financial compensation for board , food and vets bills.

I would also suggest push her into making a decision by saying does she want the dog back or not and if yes you will forward the bill and that will make her make a decision.

Unfortunately the dogs legally belongs to the owner but the foster has a right to claim  for resonable financial compensation for board , food and vets bills.

NOT if it is seen to have been abandoned. If there has been no money paid and no contact, it's not unreasonable to assume it has been abandoned. After all, this happens to boarding kennels all the time -People drop a dog off and never collect it again. The timeframe can vary. Trevor Cooper said that if somebody tied a dog up outside a shop for 2 hours, you couldn't really say it had been abandoned and ownership therefore lost. If however the dog was tied up for a full day, then yes you could well argue it was abandoned and then the owner HAS lost all rights to it, just like if it is picked up as a stray and not claimed within 7 days. This part of the law is so that stray and found dogs CAN be legally rehomed.

But there was an arrangement that they agreed to look after the dog but no agreed date of when the fostering would finish.

Of course if you wish to keep him and she wants to claim him back then you could bill her for 9 months boarding ;) at for example £10 a day, I think she would rather let you keep him.  

I don't suppose her attachment to him was that great, if he was only 3 months old (they would only have had him for a matter of four or five weeks), and you have paid out an awful lot more for his care than she could possibly have done purchasing a crossbred pup..

But there was an arrangement that they agreed to look after the dog but no agreed date of when the fostering would finish

Also which is strange, this was either done out of the goodness of the OP's heart for the mother who is her friend for free, or it was done on a fostering agreement with intention to supplement financially.

TBH if the OP has never, ever asked for anything for the dogs upkeep, (you can't assume these things you have to ask and arrange) which she most certainly should have as it is not her own family here, there was always the option not to do it, who fosters a dog for free and pays vet bills, food, gives time and socialisation training etc? Well, I guess our OP did and others might, but then people will take you for a ride. :-(

If the legal owner here was not asked, informed or even threatened to make other arrangements as it was not on, there would be no case to reimburse. IMO with no prior arrangement to pay it would not stand up in court now.

The OP has always had the option to discontinue and take the dog back to the mother and that is what would be found in a court. The backlog of money spent would be a moral issue not a legal one.

Asking for financial assistance from today would work if the owner does not wish to legally give the dog to our OP so yes, she should start now - however that could mean that she will start to pay or take the dog away and to the mother where she will not be charged so risky to do so, unless going for the abandonment strategy.

It has to be sorted one way or the other, it is hurting no-one but the OP.

Is the dog loved by all, both or just the OP?

OP you need to speak up and not stop until you have your answers.

Wow, this is an interesting one.

I'd be reluctant to get an official-sounding paper drawn up to get the dog signed over to you.  If it works, it would be fantastic.  But that approach also has the potential to backfire, by pressing the previous owner to make a decision NOW - and she may feel unsure about permanently signing over the dog, so might take it back just to keep her options open, or just because she feels under pressure.  Again, if you ask now for financial support for the dog, that is likely to put pressure on the previous owner to take the dog back away from you.

Is the dog microchipped?  If not, I'd get him microchipped with your own details on there.  If he is, I would see if you can change the microchip details to your own.  If you need consent from the previous owner for that, you could explain that this is in case the dog gets lost, so that it can be returned to you.  If she tries to reclaim him in future, it will count hugely in your favour if those details on the chip are yours.

You might also want to register him in your name on the KC 'Activity and Companion Dog' register (which registers crossbreeds), just so you have some more paperwork with your details on it.

After that, it's just about time - the more time goes by, the more likely it is that any court would find you to be the rightful owner of the dog.  (To be honest, it's unlikely even to reach court if she is unsure that she wants the dog back!).  So I'd just fall quiet, stop contacting her about it, and let contact between you cease.

I would like to know if the original owner has bothered with the dog since you got him?  Has she visited the dog at all?  If not, then forget about her.  She is obviously not interested and isn't answering your calls because she doesn't want to say it out loud(like she failed the pup?).  I would send her a message saying that since she hasn't visited/called, you are taking over this dog from now on and she no longer has rights towards him.  I wouldn't give her the choice and if she argues, like everyone says, give her the bill!!
If, however, she has visited the dog and tried her best during a sad time, then I would give her a chance to get herself sorted but give her a date by which time she needs to collect him.  Sad, but she maybe does love her dog and that's why she didn't want to re-home. 
My reply depends on how interested she has been since you took him on.

"The mum has trusted our op with the dog, probably not thinking she may want it."

Maybe so, but the owner has contributed nothing to his keep, I presume they haven't been in regular contact either, to see how the dog is? Doesn't sound to me as if they want him back :-(  That said, if the owner has been in touch all along and so clearly cares about the dog then that is a different matter altogether.
It doesn't seem to me that he had the best of homes previously though :-(

True enough, but we don't know the full story of how much/little contact the dog has had from the owner.

The ultimate insult would be if the original owner when finally reached for confirmation then offers to sell her the dog.

Nothing would surprise me!

Yes, I could see that happening too!