One of my Labs had to be neutered recently :-(  I'd like to continue showing him (probably only at open show level, unless anyone thinks it's worth my while at champ shows?) as he enjoys it, I enjoy taking him with me and he's rather lovely... if I do say so myself :-D

I have shown a neutered dog before, he was purely a pet, but we gave it a go to see what all the fuss was about before getting my first proper show dog.  I informed the KC and carried their acknowledgement letter to all shows.  I thought it was standard practice to inform the steward before going into the ring,  however more often than not I was met with ridicule/outrage/disgust/ignorance from the stewards.  The judges were more well-informed, but it always became somewhat of a spectacle.

For those of you who have shown neutered dogs, what do you do?  Is it really necessary to inform anyone prior to going in the ring?  In my opinion, good judge should notice what's missing, and I'd take that as my queue to say that we have a KC letter should they want to see it. 

Thanks,

Clare

> Is it really necessary to inform anyone prior to going in the ring?  In my opinion, good judge should notice what's missing, and I'd take that as my queue to say that we have a KC letter should they want to see it.

I found the same when I had a letter about my Tula having the end of her tail removed, I found telling them in advance put me at a disadvantage.  So if the judge picked up on it I would tell them I had a letter, same with two since who have had to have teeth removed, if I see they notice i say, I have a letter.

My Lexi who is nearly 9 had one of the big teeth removed after an abscess several years ago and she has added 3CC's, a RCC including BOB and Best/Reserve Best of Sex awards without CC's, since.

I have generally found that judges do not discriminate in veteran for missing testicles, and dogs that were mature males at castration should not be physically disadvantaged, ti then depends on the judges view on neuters.

I don't think there is any requirement for you to tell or show anyone your permission to show in the case of castration, if asked just say you have permission to show. Probably best policy to have a copy in your show bag but I would be very surprised if you were ever asked for it.

Some judges will not like it but others will ignore the fact probably assuming there was a medical reason for the missing jewels.

I think you are right, a judge will pick up on this and if necessary will ask you about this. You should show him, he's lovely, and his lack of crown jewels will only be taken into account as a fault. Good luck with him in the ring!

You no longer need permission to show after neutering -you inform the KC that it has been done, that's all. You will find yourself at a great disadvantage though and personally I would not bother as you will never get anywhere. I think it is high time the KC introduced neuter classes as for cats -how come in cats we can win titles etc for neuters but in dogs you get binned instantly? It's utterly wrong for a neuter and an entire to be shown in the same class. It may well increase entry figures as well!

I used to show my neutered Yankee, back then you had to get the letter to compete and I just carried it with him in the show bag. We never did much, but then we didn't get much before either, he does best at companion show level. Recently got 2nd of about 25 in AV Sporting at the age of 10!!!!

Thanks everyone.

For me personally, showing this dog isn't about 'getting anywhere'. It's about taking him out every weekend with my other dog and doing something we both enjoy. If I was worried about getting anywhere I'd have given up ages ago.... Or picked a breed with smaller entries :-D

Then enjoy. :) To be honest I don't see the point in showing if it's not to win, but that's me. :)

Don't get me wrong, winning is lovely! I campaign one of my dogs quite seriously, but if he wasn't up to much I guess I'd work him more and show him a lot less (as I know which he'd prefer). But melvin is a very special dog, who loves to show, and has special looks to go with it. I'm very proud of him and want to show him off.. Even if he is missing his bits!!

I just bring my letter (never been asked to show it) and only one judge has ever commented on it. This is at Champ level in the Uk and Ireland.

Thanks. So out of interest, do you ever get placed above other entire dogs?

In veteran stakes classes, regularly, in breed classes iregularly but like you I am showing a dog who loves to show for fun for him and learning experience for me until my pup comes along. He is also 9 so fighting many uphill battles re placements! LOL

I showed a castrated dog many years ago and he placed regularly in open dog, and at times standing in front of entire Sh Ch males. That said I do feel is significantly hard to show a castrated male than a spay bitch .. Double standards !!

>That said I do feel is significantly hard to show a castrated male than a spay bitch .. Double standards !!

Not really doubel standards; just that one is detectable (and contrary to the standard) and the other isn't. There's nothing in any standard that says a bitch should have ovaries or a uterus ...

Hi Clare
Show your boy and enjoy !!!
We had our boy neutered at 7 years of age, we were told by some people  . . . hmmm . . .that there was no point showing him because the judge would 'knock him back' but we did show him and always took the letter from the Kennel Club with us. He won Best of Breed at the first Champ show he did after having been neutered and it didn't make any difference to the amount he won after compared to before. The reason we always showed the letter BEFORE we went in the ring was a) So the judge knew he had been entire and b) to stop judges fumbling around 'down there' looking for the testicles :-)

Perhaps the judges quandary over the part in the standard calling for entirely would be for a letter from the vet confirming the dog had 'two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum' at time of neutering, and the KC confirmed/noted this in their records and letter they issue.

I got a letter from my vet on their headed notepaper stating that my boy had been entire before he was castrated. You don't have to have your letter from the KC with you - I contacted the KC about this after a show recently where I took my castrated old boy and the steward and judge both insisted that I should have my letter - not a good day :(

i sometimes show a neuted male, i dont show the letter before hand but when asked how old i say 8 years neuted male, that why the judge knows not to bother looking, i do take the letter with me but have only been asked for it twice.

Your quite right because with neuters you only need inform the kennel club, not get permission to show, but to avoid situations such as you have it is best to have the letter with you as with males it's so obvious.

Before the current rule change you didn't even have to do that, as long as the dog had registered progeny they could be neutered and shown.

As I understood it, the purpose of dog showing was originally (and still should be imo) for the purpose of sifting out the best breeding stock within a breed, so what's the point in showing a neutered dog? If times have changed so much that the original purpose for dog showing has been lost, then that is a great shame.

As I understood it, the purpose of dog showing was originally (and still should be imo) for the purpose of sifting out the best breeding stock within a breed, so what's the point in showing a neutered dog?

My view is that success in showing isn't just about the dog itself - it provides evidence of quality in the lines. Therefore there is proof that the sire and dam have produced quality offspring and it would give support to breeding them again or breeding from other quality dogs with the same pedigree. 

Can't showing just be fun?  A way to spend a day surrounded by the breed you love, learning more about them, and choosing lines that interest you?  I would rather my hobbies were fun anyway. 

Melvin's breeder is keen that he is shown (even now that he's neutered) because she is very proud of how he turned out, his brother is used at stud, his father is still used at stud and his mother may well have one more litter, so to see how their progeny do in the ring has to be helpful for future breeding decisions. 

The dog that I campaign quite seriously will never ever be bred from (because I think his sire has produced a lot of litters, and is still producing... and I'd rather not own a stud dog), but does that mean he shouldn't be shown either?  I see what you are saying, but I don't understand why there isn't room for people to show with other motivations.

I agree Clare - I'm about to start showing my boy. I see it as a social outing for both of us and it gives me a chance to meet owners of the same breed and see their dogs.

I have no intention to breed my boy, but think if he's successfull it would reflect well on his breeder and the sire and dam - therefore it wouldn't be pointless.

> Therefore there is proof that the sire and dam have produced quality offspring and it would give support to breeding them again or breeding from other quality dogs with the same pedigree. 

Exactly, that's the serious and most important part, but the fun is also relevant and the two are not mutually exclusive.

Breeders at a show will be watching to see what a dog or bitch is producing, how different liens are combining, they aren't necessarily wanting to use the particular animals or worried about if they are bred from.  You would generally sue the sire of the winning dogs (assuming you have bitches with a pedigree that might give similar good results), as they have proved what they can do.

I see your point, but still feel that it should really be unneutered dogs/unspayed bitches that are shown. I imagine most exhibitors would retire a dog or bitch once neutered/spayed, could be wrong though?  As for it being a social event, of course it is, but that's not why dog showing first came about. The fun has to be relevant of course, if you don't enjoy showing, you won't succeed, no matter how good a dog you have on the end of the lead.

>As for it being a social event, of course it is, but that's not why dog showing first came about.

The first recorded dog shows were held between a few men down at the pub ...

> I imagine most exhibitors would retire a dog or bitch once neutered/spayed,

All my bitches are spayed after their last litters and in fact do as much winning afterwards than before, as they don't miss shows due to seasons or lost time out for motherhood, where pregnacy rearign and coat regrowth will loose you 9 months.

I do have a breed that often reaches it's best at around 6 years of age so many veterans win tope awards. 

My middle champion bitch won her first Thre CC's in 2005 - 6, did nothing much in the years she was having litters (hard to ahve them in conditon, not in season, back in coat at the right time), and has so far won 3 in 2011 - 2012 with limited showing as a Veteran.

We have a top heavy breed age and class wise, and dogs will be regularly shown to 12 years of age, and probably be fully competitive to at least 10.

As I understood it, the purpose of dog showing was originally (and still should be imo) for the purpose of sifting out the best breeding stock within a breed,

And it still is, breeding is not and never was about one animal. No one would or should breed a bitch or dog without looking at that animals relatives past and present the fact that the great-grand-sire has been castrated makes no difference and it is easier if you can see him in the ring along with some of his progeny rather than have him hidden away at home.

> breeding is not and never was about one animal. No one would or should breed a bitch or dog without looking at that animals relatives past and present

and that is where seeing littermates of that super looking dog bitch (who may be neutered), to see if quality is produced consistently.

Have to say in my breed although numerically small neutered dogs have done really well.  My main reason for showing is the socialisation for both me and my dogs.  If I win great but it isn't the be all and end all for me and never has been. 

> Melvin's breeder is keen that he is shown (even now that he's neutered) because she is very proud of how he turned out, his brother is used at stud, his father is still used at stud and his mother may well have one more litter, so to see how their progeny do in the ring has to be helpful for future breeding decisions

Melvin's breeder ... that would be me :-) would like Melvin to stay in the showring, I love him to bits, and it has been obvious that other judges do too... placed at champ level and well placed at open.  his litter mate has a CC (won just recently) and stands at stud.  Just because Melvin is neutered, is no reason to remove him from the showring. 

his mother may well have one more litter  erm.. no.. she has just had her last lol.. and I am also keeping a dog and a bitch from this litter, and hoping that they will be every bit as successful as their half siblings. 

I also bred and own the litter mate of Melvins Dam, who himself has sired pups who have gone on to gain their stud book no's.... So while Melvin himself will not be able to reproduce, his is still a flagship of my breeding, of which I am rather proud.

There will always be debates for and against most things showring, but if you feel that you are happy with showing Melvin as a neuter, then go out and have fun!

Thanks Kay :-) Apologies for my inaccurate information, I thought there was still a chance that Beanie would have another litter... but I think I just meant that it was theoretically possible at least.  I can't wait to see the two you've kept!!

Watch this space anyway... just waiting for the bald patches to grow back!!!!

No problem Claire, I just wasn't sure if you knew that Beanie had, had her litter  (nearly 15weeks old now :-) ) but she will be 6 in October and has produced well for me, she is now well and truly retired :-)  (and spayed 2 weeks ago )

> It's about taking him out every weekend with my other dog and doing something we both enjoy

This has to be as good a reason as any and with the expense of showing, and the general decline of entries at some shows, I think most show organisers, and judges, will be pleased to see you you - and him :)

Do keep us posted as to how you get on.  Good dogs, nuts or no, really do deserve to be seen and you should feel under no obligation to stop doing what you both enjoy.  I wonder if you could just announce, as the judge goes over him, "He's had to be neutered now" (or something along those lines) "but we both still enjoy showing so it would be a shame to leave him at home"

> .... So while Melvin himself will not be able to reproduce, his is still a flagship of my breeding, of which I am rather proud.

And this is every reason why the Neuter section at cat shows is so successful.

While the logistics of keeping entire cats of either sex is far more complicated than with dogs [entire males needing separate housing, spraying, queens calling every month or more often until mated] so neutering is more common, approaching a top breeder enquiring for a "show neuter" is acceptable and welcomed, as it will get one of their breeding out & shown, thereby adding to their reputation. Most promising females are retained for breeding but not always, if there isn't a suitable breeding home for them lined up; males of course can't all be kept entire and some very good cats have gone on to win at the highest level in Neuter.

There is the worry of retained testicles in cats as well as dogs, similar issues there, but if Neuter classes were brought in at dog shows one way around this would be, as already suggested, a Certificate of Entirety to say the dog had both necessaries at time of castration would solve that. The cat world has something similar to make sure entire studs offered for mating are firing with both barrels, in an effort to eliminate monorchidism.

I understand the Good Citizen classes are a fairly recent addition to the show schedule and can be treated as a separate class (winner going on to compete for CC/BOB). Wouldn't be that difficult to also offer a Neuter/Spay class along those lines, surely... so that neuters can be judged against themselves and the best can have a stab at CC/BOB having got there under their own merit, as opposed to taking pot luck under a judge who may be biased against neuters.... the males of course getting the worst deal there under the present system as the judge can't tell if a bitch is spayed or not.

>> .... So while Melvin himself will not be able to reproduce, his is still a flagship of my breeding, of which I am rather proud.
>And this is every reason why the Neuter section at cat shows is so successful.

How would being in a neuter class make a difference to his breeding? It's akin to skimming off the cream of the exhibits into a champion class, to allow 'the rest' a better chance of a ticket.

The logical assumption is that entire animals are going to be bred from, whereas I know people whose dogs are extremely successful in the show ring who have no intention of breeding from them - it's far too much responsibility!

Tbh in my breed spaying/neutering tends to ruin coats - often making them thick and woolly, so not sure how they could realistically continue to be shown.

in my breed spaying/neutering tends to ruin coats

Have found in my breed some to suffer with change in coat and skin but it seems, for some reason to be worse on the dogs the bitches only seem to develop the odd wave in the coat.

Had one boy who was done before maturity who had loads of problems I would have been happy to settle for just the coat TBH it messed up his whole system and I found myself dealing with one thing after another.

I have been lucky to have had girls with excellent coat texture that wasn't unduly affected by spaying, and had several judges rave over Jozi's coat texture especially.

Probably havign it done in middle age means everything had settled into it's adult state.

What I have found though is the coats are not quite as waterproof as before.

You don't have to tell them, just carry your permission to show letter with you in your bumbag (in a seperate pouch to keep it clean) just incase you need to show it. I showed a neutured dog as my first show dog and he did a far bit of winning at both Open and Champ level beating champions...you would be surprised at the amount of judges that don't check for clangers!! Get out and enjoy him! And never worry about anyone my boy was nicknamed the no-ball wonder..and did he care...not a chance!!

Thanks!  It's great to know that you've been so successful with your 'no-ball wonder' hehehehehe ... I'm not feeling wealthy enough to risk champ shows just yet, but I'll see how we do at open shows and take it from there :-) 

You do not have to produce your letter from the Kennel Club. I had a recent "disagreement" about this with a steward and a judge about this when I was showing my castrated dog. I contacted the KC and was told that you don't need to have it with you. Possibly a good idea to have a copy of it though for the judges and stewards who don't know the rules!!!

RidgieLover
After your disagreement I'd be tempted to keep a copy of the confirmation form the KC that you don't need to show them the letter on you - but not the letter.  Very childish I know but I think I'd get a certainn amount of satisfaction out of it lol

>Can't showing just be fun?

Hallelujah!

:-)