a dog entered under you is seriously underweight?

I had one which was so skeletal yesterday that at first I assumed it was a recovering rescue. Then when I realised it was not, I suggested to the owner that perhaps it was too thin and the owner should feed it a bit more. I was informed that the breed was being kept this thin as it was necessary for showing. Now I know this breed and know it shold not be that thin.

So I wondered if I should have asked it to leave the ring? Or just left it standing there unplaced?

I know the KC has noticed a number of breeds are being exhibited which are too thin and are not happy about it.

I have in the past hd exhibitors showing thin dogs believing this to be hard condition, but have always corrected this notion and explained what hard condition is.

I have heard this about Sibes, personally i think if a dog is so thin it worries you then you are entiled to give it a lower place or whatever you see fit.

I had a few thin dogs but this one in particular was dreadfully thin, a fellow judge also commented on it.

Difficult one Polly, you can't dismiss it from the ring unless you think its condition is caused by ill health or is so bad the dog is unfit however you can tell the handler you will not place as the dog is so thin it is not of type.

You can also ask the secretary to note in the incident book that your thought exhibit number ???? was so thin you have worries about its health. The KC can then act on this if they see fit.

I thought you can penalise under the new rules and regs. But as to which one I'd do I'm not sure...
If I was the owner of said dog I would want to be told, and I do ask my trusted friends/mentor to double check my dogs for me
as sometimes it's easy to miss if you've allowed too much weight to creep on or drop off.
In my breed it's hard as some say they like dogs on the lean side and others want more covering..
I certainly would never want pin bones showing.

What breed out of interest?

GSD you could feel the back bone, ribs and bones in the shoulder and hindquarters, but to be honest you didn't have to feel for them you could see them before you put your hands on the dog.

I have been told Lincoln is lean by judges, one implied I had kept him like that so he didn't tip the scales over 11lb, I was really annoyed, that was my first show and I told this judge that all my dogs are free fed RC at the time so could eat as much or as little as they want, he is still lean despite trying all sorts of diet. I have since learnt that his sire also has a problem keeping the weight on, Lincoln was from his sires second litter.

Prior to going into the ring friends who hadn't seen him before were eager to have a look and go over him, after I had been in the ring I asked those folk if they thought he was too thin, they said at 10months old he had some filling out to do but he wasn't too thin.

If the dog you were judging was really thin then just leave unplaced less hassle all round, if it was so thin as to look ill I would have asked that it leave the ring and quietly explain to the owner why.

Judging isn't for me as I hate upsetting folk.

Judging isn't for me as I hate upsetting folk.

The only thing a judge can do to upset me is to treat my exhibit without care or to be rude to me or others - otherwise they are as entitled to their opinion of my dog and by entering I have asked for the opinion so should not be upset when I get it, now no opinion given is another matter if placed in a suitable high place I expect a critique.

When I have been judging in Obedience I will ask the handler after a round, if I think there was something not quite right about the rear movement, if there is/has been a problem with the hips and every single time have been told 'yes'. I may risk offending people but if I were the owner I would want someone to bring it to my attention as I may not have noticed it myself. (Would add don't think the owners are being cruel by working the dog, or they wouldn't be allowed to continue, just something I have noticed a couple of times.)

Then when I realised it was not, I suggested to the owner that perhaps it was too thin and the owner should feed it a bit more. I was informed that the breed was being kept this thin as it was necessary for showing. Now I know this breed and know it shold not be that thin.

If it hadn't been for the owner's comments as reported above, I would not just simply assume it was a case of the dog not being fed enough. Having a breed myself that can be notorious for losing weight quickly, and that for instance will lose a lot during a moult, I know how easily it can creep up on you. And for some reason it is WAY easier and quicker to LOSE weight than to put it on! (If only humans were the same!!) My male dog is one of these that loses weight quickly if for instance you don't double his food rations when he starts moulting -and it took me a while to realise just how much his food had to be increased. Hence at his first Crufts, he was underweight and yes you could see his ribs. (I have photos a friend took.) I didn't think he looked all that bad myself, or I would not have taken him, but it's funny how blind you can get as looking at the photos now, yes he was far too thin.  Well the judge placed him last but the critique said something along the lines of "Too thin, would have done much better if carrying a bit more weight." Now THAT was an incentive to add the weight on! No need for anything said in the ring on the day, the critique said it all -you can imagine how much I was kicking myself reading that he'd have done better had he not been so thin -and I bet most exhibitors would think the same way, as after all we show to win.

True, some dogs are just very slim and some never carry any weight and a few dogs refuse to eat when there is a bitch in season but most of these will not be being shown. If it is becoming a habit within a breed that they are shown underweight then it is the responsibility of the judges to halt the trend.

We have all seen it happen a dog with an unusual (even incorrect) feature wins a few times and people start to pick similar dogs for showing or worse breeding for it. The same happens if someone starts to show the dog in a different way, should this dog start winning then everyone will start to adopt a similar way of showing their dogs.

The encouragement or otherwise of the incorrect feature (such as weight) is therefore IMO the responsibility of the judge who should make it clear in their critique that the placed dog was placed despite being, too slim, poor tail carriage, or whatever because.......

Excuse a PM - if the judge was able to critique all dogs this would be easier but if you are chucked, unless you ask, you are not to know why.

I was more surprised by the answer that this dog was kept very underweight on purpose. Had I seen him in the street I would have thought he was being neglected. I didn't place him but did make it clear that by my comments that I thought he was underweight.

The other judge did not place him either but I don't know if they made a comment, although they did say to me afterwards that the dog was in their opinion way under weight. The steward in the other judges ring was a vet nurse and she was concerned at how thin this dog was.

That is one of the problems of only commenting on the 1st and 2nd dog if all were commented on then this owner would know that at least two judges though the dog too thin to place. At open shows you are lucky to have a preamble printed where you could say in that class you were sad to see a dog so thin in the ring however if this was a championship show you could make comment in a preamble.

if the judge was able to critique all dogs this would be easier but if you are chucked, unless you ask, you are not to know why.

In my breed with small classes you'd normally see critiques for most entries, but when not possible, one simple way to get a point across is for the judge to mention it in their intro, eg. "I was concerned to see some dogs seriously underweight and would like to point out that these could have done much better had they carried more weight."

the judge to mention it in their intro, eg. "I was concerned to see some dogs seriously underweight and would like to point out that these could have done much better had they carried more weight."

That was my point Goldmali but for open shows the papers do not print intros or preambles in most cases they prune the actual critique and cut everything except the comments on the class winner, DW is stricter than OD but neither encourage general comment but perhaps in a case like this they may, lets hope so.

I would have to say something. 
Wondering if a judge will say something to me on Saturday about my girl who has recently had a litter of pups.  She lost sooooo much weight whilst looking after them and looked like a rescue but she's put on quite a bit now but still needs more.  I'm sure he'll understand if I tell him, but I will only tell him if he mentions something about her weight.

Perhaps if when submitting to the papers, the OP requests that the preamble not be cut as it is a welfare comment, they might keep it in?

Just a question on this what is stopping the dogs being weighed before they go into the ring as then surely a under weight dog will be identified by a means that is not just by looking at a dog and mis trust of a judges eye ?

> quickly if for instance you don't double his food rations when he starts moulting

That has really struck a cord with me, i have a bitch (not your breed) who drops weight dramatically when she moults and it hadnt occured to me to double her feed as soon as soon as th moult begins. I'll definitly do this next time.

They've already tried to stop the weighing and measuring of breeds that previously were weighed, I doubt they'd start on other breeds. Also some dogs can be above or below the breed standard while still for correct for their size and build. My Henry was near the top end of the ideal size for our breed, but because he was cobby and nicely muscled, he was about 4 lb over our breed standard weight range, he would have looked terrible if I'd ever got him down into the 'correct' range!

So are the breed standards conservative then ?

I think it just depends on the build of the dog. Anyone who remembers my Henry will tell you he wasn't TOO big, just on the bigger side of correct. I have a 2 year old girl at the moment who at her heaviest is still within the range, she's just more finely built all round, as well of course as being a bitch instead of a dog. :-)

> That has really struck a cord with me, i have a bitch (not your breed) who drops weight dramatically when she moults

My youngster is going through a prolonged moult (due to the changing weather) it is her first real heavy moult as she was born in February last year so never grew a huge coat over the warmer months.

I noticed her dropping weight and have had to go back to feeding her at least half as much again as normal.  I also have found that bitches that have had a litter need to be kept on increased rations until their coats come back, even if they come off a litter a little heavy (I feed my nursing bitches virtually ad lib), that if I cut them down too son they loose condition during the post partum moult.