Lots of people are known to stand in the eye of a dog to make it more alert. It was just the comment from this person and how he reacted that made me think it wasn't allowed.

What bugs me more is fellow exhibitors trying their best to scupper your chances, like leaving bait on the floor or squashing you into a corner, stepping back onto your dogs paws, running up the back of you etc

I agree with Yvonne on this. It is impossible to split what is acceptable in the show ring from breed to breed.

We all have out traditional rituals and by and large they are tolerated. Only when they become a pain in the butt do we notice or complain.

GSD caused the problem of double handling to come to the fore because if they werent rained in, it was swiftly getting out of hand.
Running around the ring with whistles, clattering food bowls or....my person bugbear....the dogs water bowl ( because it had been deprived before the show) was causing a ridiculous sight.
Many of us cant understand the reasoning behind this circus stuff but many GSDs are handled by younger, fitter people than their owners. Much of this silly nonsence which crept into the breed...because of  'the flying gait'. It has now turned into a running contest which requires the dogs to be anxiously searching for its owner and running flat out to get to it. The said owner needs to screaming from the side of the ring.

This has no place in general mixed breed competion venues and is rightly critisised for the distraction it is.

As for discrete methods of maintaining an alert dog, looking outwards...it causes no discomfort for any other exhibitor so why not?

I dont like prayer mats in boxers nor the food chucking but I get over it unless the food hits me then I would complain to the owner.

Yorkies on boxes, terriers sparring, long white coated dogs who are transported into the showground rather than walk, coat sprays on dogs....only those who have no need for such things seem to complain.
My dogs are silent all day at shows....should I be complaining about the incessant barking of other breeds?
Live and let live.

>My dogs are silent all day at shows....should I be complaining about the incessant barking of other breeds?

Yes, if their owners aren't making any attempt to keep them quiet; if the dogs are unattended and barking it's a sign of distress, and the owners are being neglectful. That sort of thing can terrify a puppy at its first show. It's inconsiderate to the dogs themselves and to other exhibits and exhibitors.

Didn't I hear that a CC was withheld recently in BSDs (sorry can't remember which type) because the dogs weren't sufficiently animated? If the stakes are that high you can see why people do attract from outside the ring


...yep it was in Malinois at SKC  ..

Yvonne

>If the stakes are that high you can see why people do attract from outside the ring

Is accepting winning by breaking the rules a good thing? Where do you draw the line?

Another agreeing with Yvonne, Suejaw, Toolz etc. Can't believe how anyone could compare standing ringside can be compared with the OTT double handling you see in GSD's. I've been showing since '89 (less than some of you I know) and I've never known such low morale for showing with exhibitors leaving the sport in droves. We've had CC's for nearly 20 years and entries are falling lower than they ever have for reasons we all know about.

As much as the next person, it drives me potty when another exhibitor doesn't give two hoots about anyone else - running up behind you, completely overshadowing you, squeaking bl***y wretched squeakers in and outside the ring, i.e. Anything that obviously has an immediate effect on other people and their dogs. And don't get me started on the numbskulls that either let their dogs bark incessantly unsupervised or worse, the ones just standing there whilst their dog is going booloo at another dog on the end of the lead arghh!

Someone standing ringside watching their dog in the ring or mental barking dogs in the next ring with oblivious owners? I know which bothers me more!!!!

Where do you draw the line?

When its causing an obvious distraction and annoyance to other people and their dogs. Even if it bothered me, I couldn't prove that the person stood doing nothing outside the ring watching their dog being shown had a sinister motive for being there or not!! :-D when someone is dancing the jig complete with whistles and bells and no man nor dog can concentrate on anything else, that's obviously different.

> when someone is dancing the jig complete with whistles and bells and no man nor dog can concentrate on anything else, that's obviously different.

Quite, it's when it interferes with others.  This includes those who throw bait (in my mind having a free standing baited breed) I think bait should only ever be given direct to the dog, and if dropped accidentally picked up.

Had a terrible time one year with all our breed dancing around the rind with heads down chasing the fluff balls all over our ring from a trimmed breed that were trimming their dogs at our ringside.

Don't get me onto breeds who don't use the benches camping around the ringside and not leaving when the breed next in need the ring. 

One year at Windsor (where benches adn rings are never close by) when it was baking the only shady side of our ring had an encampment of caged breeds from earlier or adjacent rings and we had to try and find shelter away from our ring and couldn't see judging, and were in danger of missing classes as you couldn't hear that far.

General lack of consideration and manners is a problem, not a bit of discreet double handling.  I have a breed that can be vocal, though often we are benched next to noisier breeds that either set ours off or we get the blame, but some people do seem oblivious of their dogs distress, and as a breed we do have a word with newcomers (which are few and far between and we need more). 

I am very barking aware (6 dogs with close neighbours), so try to make sure mine don't do it, and they are normally happy on the bench unless they can actually see me in the ring with a kennel mate, but in that case a spray bottle is left on the bench and neighbours asked to use it should they be noisy, the sight of the bottle is enough to remind them not to be ;)

> Didn't I hear that a CC was withheld recently in BSDs (sorry can't remember which type) because the dogs weren't sufficiently animated? If the stakes are that high you can see why people do attract from outside the ring
>
>
> ...yep it was in Malinois at SKC; ..
>

what a shame. Probably should be a different thread but if if the only reason the cc was withheld was because the dog was not sufficiently lively then breed showing is in a worse state than I thought.

Edited to add, I have just looked up the results and one of the dogs had already won a res CC so presumably wasn't a particularly bad example of the breed.

but if if the only reason the cc was withheld was because the dog was not sufficiently lively then breed showing is in a worse state than I thought.


ahh but the alertness of the breed is so important it's written into  breed standard - here's the very  first line: 

Medium sized, well proportioned, intelligent, attentive, hardy, alert


and also:

Direct lively enquiring look[/i]

Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree

the FCI breed standard ( and don't forget that this is a continental breed )  requires that :

He is vigilant and attentive, his look is alert and enquiring with a direct look, lively and intelligent .....

most breed specialists would penalise a BSD that looked bored in the ring !

Yvonne

Our breed standard calls for 'bold and energetic'.  Most judges prefer them to stand still though ;). 

I think it is a bit beyond a joke if a dog has to be hyped up to show alertness, glad I don't show the breed anymore.

Perhaps in the same way that standards have been amended to assist in discouraging breeding to exaggeration  they should consider amendments that discourage unacceptable behaviour in the handlers :)

or do away with the nuisance of individual breed traits altogether and simply have a 'one size fits all' method of showing all the 200 + breeds we currently enjoy - ....wait a minute hasnt this already happened over in the USA ( flash and dash anyone ! )

Yvonne

Yep strung up, stacked, and baited, with moderately angulated dogs rears stretched behind them, and moved at a speed they were never designed to go. 

Probably due to the pro handlers, much easier to show all the dogs the same way you don't need to remember what breed you have on the lead.

> still for the initial and final assessment that 'looking out of the ring' is important not whilst they are being moved - of course owners don't gallop madly round trying to keep up with their dogs, what would be the point of that ?

The GSD fraternity did just that and more,blowing whistles,screaming their dogs name,flapping towels wildly,squeaky toys squeaked incessantly and I have even seen football rattles being used. And all the while running round the outside of the ring expecting everyone to get out of their way. Once all that nonsense started I quit the show scene.

I've been reading a book recently by Bo Bengston who states that in Germany just as the GSDs are about to move the judge will actually loudly shout 'second handlers at the ready' and spectators are expected to get out the way or a mowed down?! Also, in response to dogs beings aggressive to other dogs in the ring, this book says that in the USA 'providing the handler is experiences and knows how to control the dog, a certain amount of aggression is allowed (?!), as it gets the dog up on its feet and arch its neck' and that also it is the norm for male working and terriers are not expected to be friendly?! Interestingly enough this backfired at one Westminster show when two male Irish Wolfhounds nearly had a fight in the ring, it was only the quick thinking of a lady handler who dragged her dog out the ring which stopped a disaster from happening :O!

Goodness, always found Wolfies very mellow toward other dogs, but then they don't sparkle, and maybe breeding for this for better show performance causes more aggression.

Personally in both GSDS and BSD's this obsession with dogs being 'up' all the time just makes them look neurotic (maybe some are).

.....disagree ....surely assessing them for alertness is one way of proving that a dog originally bred  to guard sheep is still  'fit for function'  ?

Yvonne

But surely there's a time and a place ....

> But surely there's a time and a place ....

Well quite and also I would query whether some of these dogs are demonstrating much alertness at all if they requiring quite this level of stimulation! :-D

my breed is usually shown 'head on' to emphasise the head, arch of neck,  ear set,  and above all the desired alert expression-

Hear hear. Our breed are supposed to be on their toes, alert, ready to spring into action, aware of everything going on around them etc etc. If they look at the handler they are not able to do any of this, they lose their topline and arch of neck, they lose the 'typical' expression of the breed that the standard calls for and so on. . . . they do all this quite naturally if they are looking out for someone or something . . .

If a BSD was half asleep on it's feet it wouldn't be able to work tirelessly as a shepherd / guard dog . . . so it is very important that they are alert and aware of everything going on around them

so it is very important that they are alert and aware of everything going on around them

the point being surely that they should be naturally alert and should not need excessive stimulation.

>the point being surely that they should be naturally alert and should not need excessive stimulation.

An excellent point.

How can any dog be naturally alert having travelled in a car for possibly several hours and then benched in an indoor venue for another period of time and then expected to stand perfectly in a small area of concrete whilst showing an alertness that would be there 'naturally' if the dog were in a field with sheep or wolves or other natural stimuli. These are animals reacting to stimuli that to be honest , at a dog show, just arent there normally.

not very many rabbits indoors either!!!

Plenty of stimuli at dogs shows, that is why I have to work hard to hold my 16 month olds attention on boring old me, as all the goings on in other rings people ringside etc are so interesting.

Plain old grass and a post is all i need to keep my boys attention :-) wonder if i can start taking in props ;-D

There are so many things that are different at a show than in a home environment that a dog, unless bored out of its mind, will show interest. Different noises, smells, strange dogs - all of these will create animation. The familiar, boring handler, however, can often take a running jump!

If a dog is not stimulated by a dog show I do wonder if it should be being shown.

Most dogs love travelling in cars, do not mind benches particularly if their people are there and when did you last travel for several hours to a benched show when you are required to show on a small area of concrete. Why is a dog expected to stand still, think if it is sensitively handled it will show its true colours and if it does not then perhaps it should be left at home.

> How can any dog be naturally alert having travelled in a car for possibly several hours and then benched in an indoor venue for another period of time and then expected to stand perfectly in a small area of concrete whilst showing an alertness that would be there 'naturally' if the dog were in a field with sheep or wolves or other natural stimuli.

If there are breeds whose standard calls for something in the ring that simply cannot be provided - other than the frantic squeaking, waving and running employed by 'second handlers' - then perhaps it's time to review the standard.  Although frankly a good judge ought to be able to gain the right type of attention from all dogs at critical moments in his/her judging, and most do at least try.

That's another gripe of mine judges that use a squeaky toy, it always freaks our breed out and all their tails drop lol

If there are breeds whose standard calls for something in the ring that simply cannot be provided - other than the frantic squeaking, waving and running employed by 'second handlers' - then perhaps it's time to review the standard.

what !! - are you seriously suggesting that the breed standard should be changed to fit the requirements of the UK show ring ? - surely the breed standard must reflect the breeds original purpose i.e in this case as a watchful flock guarder ...I'm truly shocked by this suggestion !!

...and BSD exhibitors do NOT do "frantic squeaking, waving and running around" etc - we simply train the dogs to look out of the ring for their owners or family members - like this :

http://www.cfcbb.fr/images/galerie/cchipy%20du%20moulin%20de%20la%20voise%20.jpg
http://www.cfcbb.fr/images/galerie/eckmul_%20indy_%20urf_%20geolane.jpg
http://www.cfcbb.fr/images/galerie/eckmul_re_avignon.jpg

  this method  cannot affect other breeds or other handlers so frankly I'm puzzled why some of you have such an issue with it !

Yvonne

this method  cannot affect other breeds or other handlers

In which case that is not what the thread is about, and no one could have an issue with that.

Am stewarding for one of the BSD breeds soon will be able to see first hand.

Yvonne

Yes it was a bit tongue in cheek :)  However it does seen a bit odd that some breeds need such extreme provocation outside the ring in order to show "an alertness that would be there 'naturally' if the dog were in a field with sheep or wolves or other natural stimuli".  Please note I'm not talking of your breed at all, or of the subtle outside ring encouragement such as that you mention, but the full on flag waving I've seen at the GSD ring which does impede the view of spectators AND impact adversely on other breeds being judged nearby

.>..and BSD exhibitors do NOT do "frantic squeaking, waving and running around" etc - we simply train the dogs to look out of the ring for their owners or family members

this is certainly not the way the BSD's were shown in the UK some 20 - 25 years ago, ( my bitch was born 1988 an shown 89 - 91).  When did this style of handling creep in/start? 

Was it when UK exhibitors started attending shows on the continent, after Pet passports came in?

What about the lone exhibitor, surely they are disadvantaged if it takes two people to show a dog?

> If there are breeds whose standard calls for something in the ring that simply cannot be provided

"Lively, strong, loyal to owner and family, but distrustful of strangers."

Not very appropriate for todays Boxers at dog shows................. unless you only show under friends :-)

This was my favourite Groenendael bitch during the short time in the breed http://www.tanje.fsnet.co.uk/ch_tanje_midnight_serenade.htm  and her half sister http://www.vanistica.com/Tegans-Page.htm

Both the bitches you've linked to were out of an American import and back then the USA was a big influence on both type and presentation - but as more breeders and exhibitors travelled to Europe and observed how the breed looked and was exhibited in it's country of origin, where the breed had not been altered to become that all American generic 'show dog', but remained true to it's original form and function, then things changed. Almost all BSD are now continental bred and this is reflected in the beautiful head qualities and shapely outlines we now have - The photo's I've linked to are taken from a French show and this is how all BSD are exhibited throughout Europe - why should our 100% continental bred BSD be exhibited any differently ?

You are right that a single exhibitor is at a disadvantage if they have no-one to show the dog out to ... ...but then showing dogs has not and never will be a level playing field - there will always be those that can groom  better, those that can afford a professional handler, those that can train their dogs to be picture perfect in the ring  ..and those that are a 'name' in a breed!

Yvonne

Toolz - if the Boxer breed standard states that they should be 'distrustful of strangers' then should this be changed simply to fit the show ring ? -what ever happened to 'fit for function' or is it ok to ignore the original function as long as they fit their new function as a show dog ? -  at shows why is the temperament characteristics that are written into a breed standard not only ignored but sometimes actually penalised  ( my own breed is required to be wary yet this is often not understood in the ring ) if we change individual breed temperament traits then are we not headed down the road of the bland generic 'show dog - is this what we want ?

Yvonne

Yvonne,
'Distrustful of strangers' is very difficult to apply to a show scenario, it cannot be safely replicated other than the pseudo alert stance the dogs are placed in. Showing guarding instincts in a breed which is now almost exclusively kept as family pets is difficult and no doubt politically incorrect in these times of great scrutiny.I wouldnt want 'Distrustful of strangers' removed for the entrinsic nature of guarding breeds but I dont want it replicated in public.

In my other breed "Gay, friendly, non-aggressive; no tendency to nervousness" is perhaps a little easier to display although this is now taken to such extremes, if the poor dogs dont wag manically they are seen to have poor temperaments.

Dog show exibitors will always need to be reined-in to avoid the excesses of the GSD fraternity which, before it was checked, caused a damned nuisance to so many people. Subtle training and attraction - which is no inconvenience to others- is but a drop in the ocean if seen next to other 'enhancements' shall we say :-)