I finally moved my 3 (entire) dogs, all a medium gundog breed, aged 4.5, 4 and 3 years to raw feeding about 6 weeks ago. The younger two have no problem with it, although they've struggled a bit to get used to real bones (no weight-bearing bones, just ribs) and they never argue amongst themselves, they even share their food bowls. The oldest is the dominant dog and although he has always been a very laid back character he can get a bit guardy and possessive about toys (which is why we don't really have them here, we just end up with a pile in his lordship's corner) but now also bones. When he finishes his he goes over to the others to intimidate them into giving them up. We had just got to the stage where they could all eat their own in the same room with me sitting there watching.

Some of you may know we added a bitch puppy to the house mix two weeks ago--she is now 10 weeks old and has no fear of going up to one of the big boys and nicking from their food bowls. I've nipped that in the bud by standing there over her and if she makes a move towards any one else's bowl she is firmly put in her place and told "go to your bowl"--all of the big boys know this command and she is learning.

Today we have had a very snarly fight over bones. The oldest boy got his first and retreated to his usual spot. The other two boys got theirs and I put one out for the puppy so she could tear the meat and sinew off it. The argument started when the oldest boy came back into the kitchen to check out what the others had. The middle boy is at the bottom of the pecking order but started growling at him. The youngest boy stands up for himself more and joined the growling, at which point my oldest boy started shouting at him and showing teeth--no biting on either side, but not in any way acceptable behaviour.

I moved the old boy behind closed doors and stood in with the other two and the puppy. The youngest boy was too upset to bother with his bone--the middle boy got one with his in fine style.

I don't want to take them off their raw diet, but it definitely seems to be causing the oldest boy to become food aggressive. I think the bitch puppy has added to their stress. The youngest boy is now avoiding him and doesn't want to be in the same room--since most of the day I'm the only one here (he sits on his own on the landing.

At any other (non-meal) time they are all happy enough together--they sleep and play together.What can I do to settle them into a positive meal time routine so that I don't make the guarding any worse, and is it realistic to think I can stop this behaviour? I should emphasise no one has been bitten, they all allow me to remove their bones, even from their mouths, which is what I did when the situation got out of hand.

Has anyone come across a similar scenario and how have you dealt with it? Thanks as ever for any advice you can give!

So the 

mine can get a bit guardy ,so i find it easiest to feed them in separate rooms,or i find one wont eat through worrying,another might gobble.Just shows how high they regard "proper"food!Ive always fed my dogs separately,so they can relax.However,my friend with five labs can feed all hers in one small kitchen,with no trouble at all.When I expressed respect,she said"I dont allow any trouble"-sheesh!

yep ! I feed mine in separate areas. In this house little one  is fine with gsd  I could feed them together or near each other and until the introduction of new pup I did. Now it doesnt work, gsd gets guardy with fcr and fcr  goes for little ones food who goes mad and would be at risk of injury if baby gate wasnt between them.
Alls fine the rest of the time just food bones etc..

Thanks colliepam, it helps a lot to know that it isn't just me :-(

lol you should see this puppy, she will have a go at anything and goes mad for raw food. My youngest boy won't touch bones now, though--he just gives it a lick and turns away. 

I feed mine their bones in the garden, never inside -then they have plenty of space. I also roughly give 3 bones per dog so there are so many there are always spares! :)

>Has anyone come across a similar scenario and how have you dealt with it?

Some of ours can eat together and some are better on their own. They all know the routine now and usually beat me to their various spaces. I find it's better to separate any that eat their meals or chew bones slowly, that way we avoid any bad feeling. We developed this basically by trial and error really, but it suits mine well doing it this way.

Bones, or good chewable food that take a bit longer to eat, are such high value that a few issues are understandable.  I tend to follow the dogs lead about where they feel most comfortable eating this type of food and each has their own food station.

Normal bowl food is fed in the same spot every time, near their beds and all in the same room to eat.   Bones are fed as follows:  oldest dog like to eat on the gravel (any efforts to persuade him that he doesn't have to have pebbles sticking to his bones is met with sheer doggedness as he moves them back again!); middle dog takes every high value item to his crate and shuts the door behind him; youngest dog used to takes ages to eat bones so he was fed on the grass in a puppy pen to prevent his bones being nicked and so he could learn to relax and take his time, the puppy pen is long gone but he still eats on the grass but now just behind a gate.

No one is allowed to move from their location till all have finished when they trundle around to see if any bits were missed     ...fat chance!

I find that sticking to same place every time means that they concentrate on what's coming, and know what's theirs.  Because I don't tolerate nonsense, or rather have taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen, then they are pretty relaxed about eating in each others company.  When we're on holiday I choose a new location for feeding and after day 1 they simply assume the 'food wait position' in their new spots.  The youngest showed signs of being a bit food possessive/anxious a while ago but it seems to have been a phase that simply came and went :)

Thanks Esme, that's what we are slowly getting to. The trouble with this breed is that they always want to have you in sight--shutting a door on them ends up with them abandoning the bone and sitting behind the door scratching...*SIGH*

Food bowls are always in the same place and go down in the same order and this never causes any problem. The bones are handed out to each dog, but I think we need to have some more thought about where and how to get it right.

All my loving friendly dogs decided they don't want to share their bones so I always feed them in separate rooms or crated. All other food which is still raw (wings, minces, egg etc) can be fed in the same room with no problems at all and my twins usually finish off with a mutual face washing. So don't worry its not just yours.
Paula

Dogs a babe what do you do if its raining or snowing with the dogs on the gravel or grass? Have you got an inside option? mine wouldn't stay outside in the rain even for a bone....woooses :-)
Paula

I think part of the knack to living in a multidog household is knowing which things are worth working hard to sort out... and which will just cause more trouble than they are worth.

For me, food is too hot an issue to make it worth the risk, so all mine eat separately (well the two oldest boys can eat together as they are happy to swap bowls!), otherwise we have a ridiculous situation with some people being bullied off their food and others dashing off to see if someone elses is better and then losing their own in the process...

IF they have bones outside which happens sometimes, I will always make sure I put out a couple more bones than there are dogs, that way there is always a spare or two, but on the whole it isn't worth the hassle and its LESS work for me to just send dogs outside singly to eat their bones or put them in different rooms.

I have to seperate my lot for high value treats such as bones or chicken wings or the lads will pinch them off the girls because they finish first.

I go along with what others have said.
A few months ago feeding time here was going a bit wonky and i felt i had to pick up the reins.
All of my dogs are fed in the same order, in the same spot at pretty much the same time every day. I've done it like this for years the only difference i have recently made is making all of them sit and wait until i say they can start eating. I do this with each dog. If they attempt to eat before i say "find it" i will lift the bowl and make them sit again. I know it sounds a bit mean but i think it teaches them manners LOL! I don't leave the room until all of the bowls are empty. I do the same procedure for their carcasses. They all have to sit and wait and are given their bone in the same order and they all have their own recreational spot. Any nonsense and all the bones would be removed and all of the dogs told to go and lie down. I would make another attempt in 30 minutes or so. Again i know this might sound mean especially to the dogs that had not been naughty or guarding their food but they all soon learnt the bones would only come with good behaviour.
I think only once they have missed out on a carcass because of silly behaviour. Now they all eat together with no problems. Phew!

This isn't dominance, it's bullying.  If you know he's going to do it, you've got two options: give him his bone somewhere that he can't leave (such as shutting him in a room or in a crate, which would allow him to still see you), so that he is physically unable to intimidate the others, or body block him every time he tries to go near them to do so, until he gets the message that you will not let him do it.  If you can't fully supervise then go for the first option.

I have this with Remy - once he's done he will go and bully the others for theirs, so once he's finished I am there watching him and blocking him (I don't have a crate and with 8 dogs, it's hard to separate one without the others ending up too crowded to chew high value things without getting tense, especially as Tia will guard against dogs a good few feet away).

I'm also just beginning to feed raw, but they don't get bones at meal times. They get them about every third day & in the garden weather permitting, this way they can each find somewhere with enough distance, I no longer have to be with them, as they quite happily settle down but I'm never far away. Raining or too cold, I remove bedding from their baskets - which during the day are some distance apart- put in an old towel and they settle down there.

I just try to give them enough space so they can settle down comfortably without having to look over their shoulder.

This isn't dominance, it's bullying.  If you know he's going to do it, you've got two options: give him his bone somewhere that he can't leave (such as shutting him in a room or in a crate, which would allow him to still see you), so that he is physically unable to intimidate the others, or body block him every time he tries to go near them to do so, until he gets the message that you will not let him do it.

That's exactly what I did, Nikita  (the body blocking, which worked up to a point, but then the other boys got growly when he was persistent and I put him in another room and shut the door).

The middle and youngest boy have an agreement that it's ok to swap over bowls once each of them has had the "good stuff," but they never ever go to the oldest dog's bowl. I think the puppy has caused a bit of the upset since she runs to everyone's bowl but her own once she's had a few mouthfuls; I pick her up and physically stop her, but then the boys each feel they would like a return lick out of her bowl...

So I think I might try Diesel and his bone in a crate with a towel over it and the other two boys can carry on as usual in the kitchen--hopefully this will help.

Thanks to you all for sharing your experience--I have been so lucky that everything has always been easy with the three boys, and now with the new puppy as well (and she goes nuts for raw) we just have to think through the problem.

> Dogs a babe what do you do if its raining or snowing with the dogs on the gravel or grass?

They're such quick eaters nowadays that I still go ahead in most weather - however if it's really 'orrible out there then I don't mind being a fair weather feeder.  Most bones are fed straight from the freezer so it's not as if they have to be eaten within a timeframe and there's always tomorrow, or the day after :)

If the bad weather goes on for too long then two dogs will eat in their crates, and the gravel chomper will eat just inside the back door - but only if I completely refuse to open it and let him out, if I even hint that I might change my mind and let him out then he'll wait ages, chicken in chops, waiting for the door to open.  Odd dog that one...

The only thing to do is supervise mealtimes and as you have been doing strictly do not allow anyone to intimidate or try to steal from another.  If the oldest finishes first then he must leave the room until everyone has done, ditto anyone else that looks like they may try and muscle in on someones dinner.

I have never allowed food bowl sharing, though when all are finished they will check the other bowls out, but even then I tend not to allow ti and pick the bowls up.  they were fed in their bowls and set places even when I fed raw.

Your males are all pretty close in age, so even the oldest doesn't have that much precedence, I would be very careful when the bitch reaches puberty that approaching season does not cause upset between them.

>If the oldest finishes first

then he must leave the room until everyone has done

Now that sounds like good sense to me, though I don't know how easy it would be to implement!

My 13yr old toy poodle would kill another dog if it came within an inch of her bones, not kibble or anything else just raw on the bone, and for that reason she eats in isolation..

otherwise we have a ridiculous situation with some people being bullied off their food and others dashing off to see if someone elses is better and then losing their own in the process...

theemx, this is exactly what they started to do, so I moved the oldest boy out, not easy because the youngest was not going to back down so on his way out the door a shouting match ensured with lots of bad language between them, but as I say, no body contact.

then he must leave the room until everyone has done

I can see a situation with four crates in opposite ends of the room draped in towels, ready for the occasional bone feast...:-). It doesn't happen with anything else because all the other super high value treats are bite sized. I've just given them a raw meal now--not a whisper--and chicken wings are no trouble either.

I would be very careful when the bitch reaches puberty that approaching season does not cause upset between them

Brainless, this is on my mind every day--so any advice on this is most welcome!

My friend who keeps both sexes (3 males and two bitches), moves her girls out when they come in season, then the boys have nothing to fall out for.

It can depend on breed, but especially with yours so close in ages there is bound to be competition, so the object of this need to be removed from their presence, prefereably off the premises.

Brainless, when you say your friend moves them out, are the girls with their breeder/friends of family or at a boarding kennel?

When I feed carcasses the girls are spaced out, old lady likes hers round the corner on the path, youngster goes in one corner of the patio and Middle "Boss" girl in the other corner...I stand between them all and as Boss always finishes first she gets put in a sit stay untill the others have finished. She will not steal but she gives "The eye" and intimidates if she is allowed to get away with it so I insist she sits looking at me untill everyone is done. If I give rectreational bones (Not often) I make sure it is a nice day and offer at least double the number of bones to dogs then take my book and sit out  with them untill the first good chew is over. Once they have grown a little tired of chewing things are calm and no problems. I ditch any left overs the same night. It is rare these days I feed marrow bones as they are inclined to go at them a bit mad and I worry about broken teeth,  as they have chicken carcass or necks at least twice a week teeth cleaning is already sorted.
My breed can be greedy and they have BIG mouths so I am always careful with what bones I feed. On occasion I have a farmer friend who gives me rabbits and they are a very welcome change to the menue. The girls will eat them whole and have to chew as they cannot get the whole thing down in one unless its been well scrunched. (Merlot can however eat a squirell whole...and possibly not quite dead :-O .) Grim but part of nature.
Up till now we have had no problems as though Merlot is top dog she understands and respects that my word is final where food is concerned. She is a good leader to the others and earns her respect by being calm and non combative, even when her 18 month old daughter started to challenge her it took some weeks before she retaliated and then it was under pressure. Unfortunatly ending in a new home for the wayward daughter who would not be told.
Nip this in the bud asap and make sure they have the space and privacy needed to eat in peace. If the way out is past the other dog then move the feeding stations around and feed low value for a couple of weeks untill you have got them settled into new feeding positions where you can get the troublemaker out of the room without passing by the others. before re-introducing higher value meals
Aileen

Thanks Aileen, that's a great help. The dogs are usually fed in the kitchen which is best described as 'railway carriage' in shape, so that's exactly the problem. They all have to go past the dominant dog/potential bully to leave the kitchen, but the middle dog never has any problem with that although he will growl at top dog if he walks past him.

Unfortunately we are a bit stuck for space--too much indoor space and not enough outside (bees and hens have taken over so perhaps I need to reconsider). There is a smallish back yard and in better weather high value treats get fed outside to two and the other two stay in the kitchen.

We will work something out, and as you suggest I have backed off high value treats till we can get it right.

Combination, though generally she moves with the girls to stay in her campervan on the land where she keeps the horses.  This is several miles from home so she has to split hwr timw between thw boys and girls.  which is exhausting.

bless,now thats dedication,respect!

I don't have any real advice, but just wanted to add that Melvin does the same thing with any raw food/high value chew.  Fortunately my other two dogs are not in the least be insecure about their food, and just ignore him.  I do separate Melvin whenever they have a special treat because he becomes very annoying! In our case it's definitely nothing to do with pecking order, as far as I can tell, Melvin is not a 'top' dog, he just becomes a daft insecure bully when there's precious food around.

I've been thinking a lot about the pecking order amongst pet dogs recently, if indeed there is one.  I've read a lot about dogs being artificially treated as 'top' dog in multidog households, where in fact another dog would make a more natural 'leader' and this causing them to act out.  Is it possible that Diesel isn't really top dog? After all, a true 'top dog' (to my mind, I'm yet to see any real evidence of a pecking order in my house) wouldn't have to behave like this (it sounds like he's insecure about his food?) as no one would challenge him? 

Some dogs are just guardy I think - Tia is much as you describe with Melvin, she's definitely not 'top dog' in any situation.

Stress can play a part though I think, as could medical problems - Opi is matriarch here (I use that term because it fits better here than top dog I think), but she guards if things are stressed (it got worse especially since Rai arrived and I had trouble between her and River, being so alike they were like squabbling sisters).  But I've noticed it get an awful lot worse since the start of this year, and it coincided with her thyroid going downhill - now she's back on form she's guarding much, much less.  Stress again, I suppose - she wasn't feeling very good.

I don't believe there is any real pecking order (at least in the traditional sense) - as I say Opi is matriarch here, but that's about as far as it goes, really.  She's the one that keeps the peace, but beyond that there's no real order.

Strangely Diesel has never been funny about food at all--it's since the puppy arrived--but I can recall him gathering up toys and plonking them all in his corner when he'd had enough of everyone playing. And it's only the bones. He isn't that interested in anyone else's dinner and no one ever (apart from the puppy) ever presumes to share his. I see him as top dog because he takes charge of every situation, whether it's ear washing in the morning, the meet and greet committee, or being the one other (visiting) dogs go to to lick his face. He usually keeps himself to himself otherwise.

Maybe he knows that Rye is going to rule the roost before long :-D

LOL--he lets he play with him occasionally but doesn't take any nonsense from her at all. When it all gets too much the paw goes out and down she goes :-)

I have three adults and feed raw.  If its food in bowls then they are all fed in the lounge in their alloted corner of the rug where they have to sit and wait for their bowl to be put and then all told ok before they can have it.  No one is allowed to push another off of a bowl but they are allowed to have a wander around to check out the bowls once everyone has finished.

As to bones, they are either fed outside if nice weather or if crap they get them inside.  I have a small house with a a fairly small lounge but each has been taught respect and they are not allowed to bully another dog to give up a bone and I have never had any growling issues but I think this has more to do with how I introduce a new dog.  Our kitchen is right next to the lounge and when I have a new pup they are fed in the kitchen behind a stair gate so they can see the other dogs but cant get near them, then the gate will be removed with me blocking them trying to go near the others dogs until they have left their bowls and then are gradually introduced to the lounge and their permanent spot.  Seems to have worked for mine.