Admin: branched from here

Hi CarolST

As Jo19 is a complete novice in Dobermann ownership why not explain to her, in simple terms, exactly what you mean by "drives" and "drive stimulation methods"?

Christine

I'd quite like to know too ;)
Liz :)

/Apologies to Admin if this is not the right place to continue discussion re. questions Carol asked, i shall not argue if the post is removed :)

Carol you mentioned about Sheila Booth and the fact that she uses prong collars - the point I was making is that in fact she does not now use them. She did a follow up to the Schutzhund Drive training book, in which she does mention prong collars and their use, but in the newer book, called Purely Positive Training, she does not recommend their use, this is the point i was trying to make :)

She adapted her training methods to all dogs, encouraged by a Terv owner which is how I came to hear about her as Tervs are my breed, because one of the dogs she bred and returned was too sensitive to work any other way. She experimented to her credit.

Regarding the citronella collar, I am a qualified aromatherapist so do know a little about the citronella oil. My personal preference would be to use the collar without the citronella in it, just the spray, and in fact this is how is was used. Perhaps my post was ambiguous here, i should have used the term Masterplus collar so sorry for that confusion :)

Regarding the E collar, I hesitate to debate on it as we have had many on here before and Admin has locked the threads after heated discussion. I am not an expert in their use but know people who have used them and would never use them again. I also meet people regularlu in the New Forest who have them fitted on their dogs, usually on a low setting, just because they have not originally put in the work to train in the first place.

I hope you will discuss more about the drive stimulation techniques, but for the benefit of the original poster you could even just explain what the drives are, that would be a good start :)

Lindsay

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed my humble little post requesting dobe info would have generated such debate! I'm relieved to see the thread back now tho. Thought my mind was playing tricks on me.

I'm actually finding the discussion on training (positive affirmation vs drive stimulation) very interesting as I have an equine background (worked with horses and evented for several years before hanging up me boots and getting a "proper job") and for ages there have been very similar arguments taking place in the horse world. Personally, I suspect that many people find it difficult to make the distinction between rewarding good behaviour in an immediate, unambiguous way that the dog understands, and using "rewards" to distract a dog from poor behaviour. As always, the failure of the method is the failure of the trainer. Contemporary arguments in human psychology indicate that most mammals respond best to positive affirmation, as long as they know what the boundaries are. I spent many of my horsey years specializing in problem cases, and I have to say that troubled, damaged horses only ever respond to positive affirmation and clear boundary setting - otherwise they lose their confidence and enthusiasm for the job. The trick is being able to set boundaries without shouting like a loony or throwing the best china around the room (please note: husbands excepted from this rule). I've always likened the knack to being like that one teacher you had at school with whom you just didn't misbehave. The thing that resonates about that teacher is that they never lost it ... you just knew exactly how far you could go before you got a short sharp shock ... no grudges borne and a sudden desire to get five stars in the next history assignment! For me, it's crucial to think very carefully about the type of situations one may come across with dog / horse, whatever, and think carefully about how one is going to react. I don't want to intellectualize what essentially should be a fun thing, but dog/child/horse whatever, it is a big responsibility and (without wanting to sound like my mum) if a jobs worth doing it's worth doing well!

I suspect that in the dog and horse worlds this is a debate that is going to rage for years ... it's a very interesting one though!

Thanks for everyone's responses and advice.

Jo

Well.....so this thread has now turned up here with way of knowing unless you thumb through.

Look, I rarely browse these sites and I really do not understand this one AT ALL, I posted here some months ago a post called 'what is a real dog' or something like that and what happened? first someone from admin came on, welcomed and warned me about 'flameing', my post quite REALSISTC AND REASONABLE....it then vanished, I found it a few days later on its way out on some other place here.

Now, Lindsey and others who asked, I started writing about drive stimulation techniques only to find this thread had vanished without reference to it SO after all the trouble I went to to write it I deleted the damn thing as it had no where to go, suddenly I find this here and what do I read????

If we write her it might be locked, censored and or deleted, who is regular here??? why have you not complained to admin??? Lindsey to be quite honest at the moment I am bloody angry at all this censorship, locked threads etc, I know this site has a bad reptation for censorship but I AM AN ADULT, capable of writeing in an ADULT way to other CONSENTING ADULTS......and if some vague admin, to whom I have not written in the first place reads my stuff and deceides that no one is grown to write or read the stuff then why does anyone bother.

At the moment I am in no mood to bother with this site and don't know if I will if I calm down, treating adults like a child could only happen in the British psychology, such as it is portraying itself to the world, for heavens sake.

Finaly and succinctly, drives are a dogs motives for everything they do, they are based in the insincts but as they are modified by learning they are not instincts, which are innate and birth, unleanred and universal throughout a species.

There are 4 drives which all have component parts, as regards the component parts most people seperate them to concentrate training of the element relevant to whatever training they are doing, by way of example the services will isolate the 'tracking drive' thats in order to concentrate techniques suitable to enhance the tracking requirments of a dog which shows exceptional tracking genetics, BUT >> BUT<<<
tracking, searching, hunting, playing and most Schutzhund protection are all behavioural characteristics of prey drive.

There are 4 drives Maternal, Prey, Fight/flight and Pack....and thats probably all I can be bothered with, I do not wast energies only for some admin to say "OhOh this all to adult for people here" lets delete it all...

Ah, but I beg to differ!

I agree that instincts are a predictable but spontaneous response to external stimuli, but I disagree that they are always inevitably innate, "natural" reactions. Particularly in the case of humans, a socially and scientifically evolving species, but also conceivably in other animals, many behavioural instincts are surely a *learned* reaction to the external world - ie mistreated dog learns to shy away from a raised hand, because it associates this with pain, this apprehension is passed on to pups, etc ... bit simplistic but you get the picture. Just because a pattern of conditioned behaviour has been evident for decades, doesn't mean its inherently innate ... if one buys this then it has an impact on training theory!

Mind you, who knows. I'm so overcome with joy that tomorrow's Friday I've started to ramble.

Jo

Hi Jo19
I think I probably did not write it down well enough and you have'nt understod what I mean.

It is not my definition anyway it what is accepted by psychologists. Instinct and drive were seperated around 1930's I think by Skinner to get away from Freauds (NOOOO not fraud) concept that all human behaviour was instinct or something like that, eg we do not have an instinct to 'hunt' for food by getting in a car and going shoping, it is learnt.

The generally accepted definition of instinct

1. An innate behaviour universal throughout a species.( dogs do not all have a genetic predisposition to herd sheep, do not all have a genetic predisposition to go underground for prey, do not all bark etc, etc.)

2. The behaviour is independent of any learning experience.

3. It is unchangeable by experience and is not susceptible to a learning process of any significant degree. ( e.g. a dog does not have an ‘instinct’ to chase a stick thrown by a person, not all dogs will but some will learn )

Drive is a behaviour having an unlearned innate base, i.e. instinct, but drive is defined as being modified by the environment and learning. It is a ‘predisposition‘ and it is the underlying motive for behaviour, understand the drive in dogs and you will understand what we call its ‘mind’, such as that is in a dog.

Probably the only part of a dogs behaviour that is instinct is the 'act' of suckling prior to the brain being developed to enable it to 'learn'. No mater what teet shaped object you offer it the pup will suckle it without learning, once the brain is developed it 'learns' a finger will not supply milk and learn to try other options and learn to wean itself of the finger.
Behaviour which can realistically be applied to describe instinct is barely applicable

morning !
ok - I admit i find some of this confusing -but very interesting ,so how would drive based training differ from reward based just say for example on recalls ??
Liz

THe way i understand a dog's drives and to separate drives from instincts is that the the drive in a dog will determine the degree of in stinctive behaviour.

So for instance a dog may chase an animal, say a sheep, through instinct, but it is the drive (prey drive in this case) which determines how persistently he pursues.

So I say a phrase "Drive in Dog Determines the Degree (of instinctive behaviour) " LOL :) :p

Drives can also be specific to a certain breed, and in this case the instincts are enhanced or developed often for human use, so we have a herding dog, or a retrieving one, etc.

Liz I was hoping Carol would maybe answer, but in my view, reward based training does use the drives, but maybe in a different way - for example I use play drive and food drive when training my girl :)

i believe that those knowledgeable at using drive training (often schutzhund people) will take great care to choose WHICH drive to focus on, also use pack drive strongly.

I'm not sure exactly how they use drive based training to teach a recall, so sorry I can't answer very well. In the book "Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive", the trainer gets the dog really excited by 2 lengths of hoses and uses them in training, using play drive but also elements of prey, retrieve and fighting drives (eg tug or war with hose counts as using the fight drive).

From what i have read the trainer then goes on to use the hoses in a specific way for teaching recalls.

I'm slightly out of my depth here so hope someone else will maybe make the difference a bit clearer - to sum up I feel the methods are not that different.

Lindsay

Hi Lyndsay
thanks for the reply
The recall was just a loose example ( probably not a good one ! )
I too was hoping Carol would answer as she has mentioned the drive orientated classes a few times and has tried to discourage people from the reward based .
So I was interested to hear how things would be taught in a real -life situation
Liz :)

I'd be interested too - its better to hear from an owner who has used these classes - oh well ! :)

Lindsay