when you are at a show who do you complain to if you can hear and see double handling happening, if the stewards are not going to intervene, do you go to the secretary and make the complaint and do you have to put your money down to make the complaint, can you also video and send this into the kc , when the people where asked to stop they got quite nasty about it as well, they know the rules like the rest of us so why is it still happening and especially since they where doing it in there own ring and then again when the dog got through to the group and where putting off other dogs by there constant sucking through there teeth and clicking and coughing etc .

What's 'double handling', please?

Was it my breed by any chance, LOL!! Don't know the answer I'm afraid. At least here it isn't anywhere near as bad as abroad where you have people shouting the dogs' names and throwing balls and at the WS last year they even ran INTO the ring during judging!

outside interference id guess?

yes they stand outside the ring and can whistle and throw a ball up and down in the air, shout, clap, to get the dogs attention but when you are in the puppy group and they are still doing it and you have a young dog in the ring that maybe its first show to start with why should they be distracted by other people outside the ring doing these things if your dog is not performing in the ring without being shouted on , or hissed at maybe give up showing it, some of the pups where moving around to see where the noise was comming from or what the noise was i know they have to get used to things in the show but this type of interference is not fair, it is not allowed and they know it as well

It is a confounded nuisance not only to their fellow exhibitors but those in other breeds who are being judged near by as well.

It is not allowed so, ask the steward, ask the judge (who should stop judging if there is double handling) if not ask the steward to fetch the Show secretary that will usually get some action from the steward by if not go for the secretary yourself and ask them to deal with it.

Then tell the Show secretary you want a report put in the incidence book stating that you asked the steward to deal with double handling and they did not and add any other measures you took, there is or should be no charge made for this and it should be forwarded to the KC.

Then contact the KC telling them you made a signed complaint in the incidence book, they should then chase it up if it is not forwarded to them as it should be.

I didn't realise they train with all that noise too, the dogs must just get used to it? I was doing some training with my dogs at my local park on Sunday and there was a group of people with some gsds at the other end of the park doing some ringcraft training, much shouting, whistling and calling was involved. I found it a useful training environment as my pup keep looking over in amazement :-D

>there was a group of people with some gsds at the other end of the park doing some ringcraft training, much shouting, whistling and calling was involved.

It seems that they have no intention of obeying the rules. :-(

I went to a GSD show a little while ago and was horrified by the continual double handling. I was laughing out loud at one point as a lady was standing next to a sign which said "Double handling not permitted" (or words to that effect) and she was yelling away, calling her dog.

I can't think why people think it makes the dogs look better. Most of them just looked anxious and stressed and when they ran they were weaving about. Not nice to see - or hear!

I was laughing out loud at one point as a lady was standing next to a sign which said "Double handling not permitted" (or words to that effect) and she was yelling away, calling her dog.

bit off topic - sorry but there are always people who think the rules and signs don't apply to them.  The ones that get me are those who let their dogs off-lead in country parks and the like where there are signs all over stating Please Keep Dogs on Leads at All Times. 

Hopefully, following Nova's post, the Op has a means of redress.

I can't think why people think it makes the dogs look better.

Certainly in Belgians it makes a HUGE difference. Dogs that have ears that are very movable in every direction yet must be up straight and used well, the dog should be up on its toes and it should look alert -that is virtually impossible to achieve without the dog looking at something in the distance. It won't get up onto its toes for a handler two feet away. It really does make them look miles better. And I say that as somebody who NEVER double handles (I am more likely to hide out of sight than catch the dog's attention when one of mine is in the ring), who won BOB at Crufts without double handing -but did have to double handle at the WS last year as EVERY single exhibitor did and I had been told the judge expected it. Wow, after 11 years of showing her the normal way my bitch looked TOTALLY different! But I must say I prefer the discreet double handling done in breeds other than GSD in the UK -no shouting so doesn't disturb anyone.

if it's against the rules then it should not happen whether it makes a dog look better or not....!!!

I saw some form of double handling, judges husband saw it an mentioned it too. We all watched and the dog messed about trying to get to op outside ring and really moved badly, so didn't pay off which made me chuckle!!

if it's against the rules then it should not happen whether it makes a dog look better or not....!!!

When it's discreet it could never be proved one way or another. The rule mentions "outside attraction" -is it outside attraction to walk past the ring and say nothing, whilst eating something? Is it outside attraction to sit ringside and watch and talk to a friend? Is it outside attraction to sit ringside with another dog and feed that dog? Is it outside attraction to walk past the ring with another dog and feed that?  What's worse, any of the above or THROWING bait inside the ring like is done in certain breeds, or using squeaky toys and clickers inside the ring -which is NOT against the rules but which is also done to make the dog look better and which can certainly distract other dogs, even in the next ring?

Bait should never be thrown in the ring, I often find it useful to bait a dog on another exhibitor behind me as the neckline is better, or have found something outside the ring that attracts their attention so use it.

...agree Marianne - almost all BSD's are double handled simply because it transforms them in the ring ....and if it's done discreetly then I really don't see the problem - after all, Gundogs are stacked and held in position, Yorkies get to stand on their little red boxes and some terrier breeds are shown face on to each other to get the desired 'sparkiness' - lets have a bit of give and take here, there are loads of annoying things that exhibitors of other breeds do , like the mounds of clippings left by Poodle owners who insist on trimming their dogs at the show, the 'Trolly Dolly'  toy dog owners who block the gangways and the Beardie and OES exhibitors who hog all the spaces round the ringside with their grooming paraphanalia...not to mention those exhibitors who are continously brushing their dogs whilst it's being shown.

Of course shouting , whistling or running around is unacceptable but  simply standing outside the ring and getting your dogs attention by playing or feeding titbits to it's kennel mate is hardly going to affect exhibitors in other breeds - and quite frankly at breed specific shows then why not allow more overt double handling - what could possibly be the harm  ?

>Gundogs are stacked and held in position, Yorkies get to stand on their little red boxes and some terrier breeds are shown face on to each other to get the desired 'sparkiness'

But not by other people outside the ring.

>and quite frankly at breed specific shows then why not allow more overt double handling - what could possibly be the harm  ?

That sounds as if it's okay to break rules if it's not done too obviously ... :-(

Rules are rules and it should apply to all if no dog is attracted from outside the ring then it is an even playing field so what difference does it make. If it is so discrete that no one notices then no problem but to my mind if you attract the attention of one dog you will attract the attention of another and may be just when the handler did not wish it.

That sounds as if it's okay to break rules if it's not done too obviously ... :-(

The point is, for it to be fair for everyone, we need lots MORE rules (or none at all!) such as no throwing bait etc etc etc -why single out one thing which when done discreetly causes far LESS distraction than many other things routinely done in other breeds? It's a bit like why are only 15 breeds health checked?!

If it is so discrete that no one notices then no problem but to my mind if you attract the attention of one dog you will attract the attention of another and may be just when the handler did not wish it.

With all due respect, that statement could ONLY come from somebody NOT in the breed. You attract the attention of the dog simply by BEING there, the dog in the ring is YOURS and is looking for you, therefore no other dogs will be bothered by it as all dogs will look for their own people -and this in a breed where dogs very much are one person or one family dogs so often aren't interested in strangers.

- after all, Gundogs are stacked and held in position, Yorkies get to stand on their little red boxes and some terrier breeds are shown face on to each other to get the desired 'sparkiness' - lets have a bit of give and take here, there are loads of annoying things that exhibitors of other breeds do

Indeed! (Now I suddenly have a mental image of a Groenendael on top of a red box being snipped away at with scissors! ;) )

>we need lots MORE rules (or none at all!) such as no throwing bait etc etc etc -why single out one thing which when done discreetly causes far LESS distraction than many other things routinely done in other breeds?

Absolutely! Anything designed to get the dog (or a neighbouring rival?) concentrating on anything other than its handler or the judge should be frowned on or penalised.

> With all due respect, that statement could ONLY come from somebody NOT in the breed. You attract the attention of the dog simply by BEING there, the dog in the ring is YOURS and is looking for you, therefore no other dogs will be bothered by it as all dogs will look for their own people -and this in a breed where dogs very much are one person or one family dogs so often aren't interested in strangers.

I don't know enough about exhibiting to know if other breeds do the same, but long before I knew what Double Handling was, I was aware that when I took one of my dogs to a companion show, if a close friend or family member was watching ringside I could NOT get his attention in the ring whatsoever, he would be fixated on the other person. Same went for training classes as well, so I had to insist on going by myself.

A couple of years ago I was at a show and was asked to hold on to a dog while the exhibitor took her other dog into the ring - same breed as mentioned above - but told to wait outside the hall with the dog or she might be accused of double handling, because the dog in the ring would be looking for its kennel-mate. I knew what it was by then, and was happy to comply.

Rules are rules and it should apply to all .........like the no artificial grooming aids rule ? ........come on now, how many on here NEVER use coat spray etc ?.......showing is all about getting the best out of your dog - if my dog is required to be up on it's toes and looking alert then shoving a bit of liver under it's nose just is'nt going to get anyway near the same effect as looking for my hubby outside of the ring will - and I fail to see how this would affect any other dog in the ring - my dogs look for him but no-one else's will give a flying ferret !!

Yvonne

>like the no artificial grooming aids rule ? ........come on now, how many on here NEVER use coat spray etc ?..

Erm ... me! Apart from anything else, it's cheating ...

Gundogs are stacked and held in position,

As already said, 'not by someone outside of the ring' and also there is no KC rule against it.!

You attract the attention of the dog simply by BEING there,

Then I would not call that double handling at all many dogs have owners outside the ring to whom they may look that would not be considered double handling - well not in my book. But if said owner is sat by the ring waving a biscuit tin or eating a sandwich or running round the ring ostentatiously putting their hand in their pocket then that is a different matter but just watching well that was not what I had in mind at all and I would be surprised if anyone else did either.

It's all about disturbing others and safety, as in order for an owner to be in the right place for their dog they will have to keep moving around as th dogs is moved around the ring. 

Perhaps abroad where class entries appear to be smaller and dogs often seem to be judged individually initially not all in together moving from one spot to the next while awaiting their turn it hasn't such a negative effect ringside.

That is why it is attraction from outside the ring that is not allowed, not from within.

i was not talking about standing outside the ring just watching,
it is when you click and whistle, and tutt, and cough and make noise THIS IS WRONG,and when i say tutt not just tutt and leave it tutututututututututttutuutut WRONG, hiiiisssssssssss WRONG,
if you are just standing their and watching the ring so what, if the dog looks over at you ,
one of my older dogs would watch the other dog in front of me all the time i never tried to stop it he was not doing anything just looking at what they where doing that could be classed as double handling i supposed , do you ask the person in front to leave the ring as the dog behind seems interested in them .

And with regard to putting something on the coat i have never put anything on their coat except shampoo and washed that out.

> that could be classed as double handling i supposed

No it is only deliberate attracting from OUTSIDE the ring, that is double handling.

Its perfectly possible to have a Gsd look alert in the ring without outside attraction.
My dog will stand and not move as all shepherds want is to see their owners.
If they are trained to stand for examination and they know that you are not going to disapear then there is no need for double handling.
There is no rule that says you cannot watch your own dog in the ring.
Like most people on here I hate the running round whistling and screaming that happens but when I am unable to show my own dog I do like to watch her in the ring without being accused of double handling if I so much as scratch my nose,

what about being in the same  class and when all have to run around one of the other competitors is loudly clucking to his dog and if he is behind my dog is distracted and turning round to see what the noise is

That must be very annoying as well.
I once showed a bitch indoors and could not get her nose of the ground as she was too busy hoovering up the bait that the previous breeds owners had left all on the floor.
I think double handling can take many forms.
Not a lot of fun left in showing these days you can have a much better day at a companion show and certainly get more value for money usually includes a good day out and if you are lucky some very nice prizes.

> I do like to watch her in the ring without being accused of double handling if I so much as scratch my nose

Sorry to laugh, but that sounds more like an auction than a dog show! ;)

There is no rule that says you cannot watch your own dog in the ring.
Like most people on here I hate the running round whistling and screaming that happens but when I am unable to show my own dog I do like to watch her in the ring without being accused of double handling if I so much as scratch my nose,

Now unless I have missed the post no one has suggested anything like that - off course you can watch your dog and scratch your nose or any where else if you like but if you happen to have a box of treats in your pocket please leave them there and do not shake them in the air.

Someone mentioned companion shows - sorry to disillusion you but it happens there as well, even more of an offence really as they are mixed classes and other dogs become very disturbed.

I,m not in the habit of standing ringside scratching but believe me all eyes turn towards the GSD ring when judging begins once again a case of minority spoiling a good day out for all the breed.
My freind got up from her chair to get a dog of his bench for the next class and was reported to the steward for double handling and didn,t even have a dog in the ring.
Its ridiculous and only seems to happen with the shepherds.

Where i saw the double handling was more that the OH of person in the ring moved from
Being hidden into the eye line of said dog while being gone over, I didn't think a huge amount about it until the judges husband made a comment for us to hear that it was double handling, judges husband is a group judge at Ch show level too.. So I'm guessing in that respect its not allowed either.. Why should anyone outside the ring be allowed to have any influence on the dog in the ring? I can't understand why people can't abide by the rules set, they are there for a reason and apply to all!!

that the OH of person in the ring moved from Being hidden into the eye line of said dog while being gone over, ..and explain to me how this could possibly disturb other dogs ?  - this is exactly what we do do - no shouting, running around or shaking of tins just a dog trained to look for it's owner outside the ring and an owner making sure they are in the dogs line of vision ...is simply standing outside the ring now defined as double handling ? ...

Yvonne

> that the OH of person in the ring moved from Being hidden into the eye line of said dog while being gone over, ..and explain to me how this could possibly disturb other dogs ?

It wouldn't. Perhaps the complainers would llike dogs to be judged in a closed room with no-one able to watch like cars are. that would stop allegations of double handling. it is exactly this sort of complaining, fault finding, over the top reaction to the most innocent actions that make me sure that breed showing is really not enjoyable any more.

Exactly !! - unless you have an enforced ruling that all dogs must be shown in exactly the same way with no stacking, baiting, trimming etc etc then  of course folk will do what works for their particular breed - and in  breeds which are required to look alert and penalised for not being up on their toes at the end of a long show day then just how are exhibitors to achieve this ?...we do not hold our dogs in place ,  flick bits of liver around the ring  or face our dogs head on to each other to encourage them to eyeball the competition .. they are trained to look for their owners outside the ring , it's a training method that works and it does not impact on anyone else's  breed, come on, let's be a tad less po faced about individual breed methods of presentation - it's a hobby and it's SUPPOSED to be fun !!

Yvonne

I suppose it would disturb people if the owner then moves around the ring as the dog does, if each owner then does this it could get quite silly, and of course obstruct those trying to watch judging.

Most free standing breeds need to be kept alert, this is normally done by the dog responding to the handler, not someone outside the ring.  I have a job trying to keep my youngest concentrating as she does look outside the ring, very much on her toes and at attention, but often looking not where I want her to, with bum to judge, LOL

20 years ago when I was showing your breed the dogs were baited and encouraged to watch the handler, and it worked fine.

I have been reading this post with interest because I never knew certain breeds need someone outside the ring egging them on verbally or otherwise in order to get the correct pose from them.

I didn't realise there were so many dogs in the UK being handled by anyone other than their owners.

I train my dogs to concentrate on me the handler and ignore what else is going on around them, majority of the shows I have attended there has only been me and the dog/s but occassionally my Mum will come too but they are not looking for her they are concentrating on me and what I am saying/whispering and what treat I may produce from my pocket.

> I didn't realise there were so many dogs in the UK being handled by anyone other than their owners

There is just something about my husband in a coat which suggests "woohoo we're off on a walk" - wherever the dogs are.  It's not so bad if he happens to be stood in a good position but given that we move around the ring and there is rarely just one good place I generally ask him to make himself scarce.

Obviously this isn't double handling - or anything like it - but it does indicate that we handlers have to think about a number of scenarios when deciding how to manage ourselves and our dogs to best advantage.  A friend recently had to bat me away from the ring as her dog kept screwing her head around to gawp at her brother ringside instead of concentrating on the job in hand - he and I were happily sitting back catching rays til we had to pack up and shuffle off to a dark corner to hide!! 

Last year we were sitting in the car waiting for our turn in the ring.  We happened to be beside the GSD ring and it was the first time I'd ever really looked at what the handlers, and double handlers do.  It was quite a revelation and very athletic - they must all have been exhausted.  I needed a kip just watching...  Interestingly this ring had been positioned in a tennis court, and well away from  every other ring.  Do you think it's deliberate, to ensure they don't distract or annoy other breeds?

> There is just something about my husband in a coat which suggests "woohoo we're off on a walk" - wherever the dogs are.  It's not so bad if he happens to be stood in a good position but given that we move around the ring and there is rarely just one good place I generally ask him to make himself scarce.

That was my point about where the double handling can cause nuisance or interfere with ringsides enjoyment of the judging and be distracting.

The dogs move around the ring while being judged so for double handling to work so does the person attracting the dog need to.  This is why I suspect it is against the rules, not to stop peoples fun or be killjoys.

I too have been a solo handler/exhibitor for years, now hubby comes but usually is too bored to stick ringside.

But it's when the dogs are stood still for the initial and final assessment that 'looking out of the ring' is important not whilst they are being moved - of course owners don't gallop madly round trying to keep up with their dogs, what would be the point of that ? - we simply position ourselves where our dogs can see us during the final line up - my breed is usually shown 'head on' to emphasise the head, arch of neck,  ear set,  and above all the desired alert expression-  that's when you need your dog to be up on it's toes looking for you......especially at the end of the class when the dogs are not being moved at all !

Yvonne

> of course owners don't gallop madly round trying to keep up with their dogs, what would be the point of that ?

Well that's exactly what some of the GSD owners were doing when I was watching - I was surprised that they do so much alongside their dogs, and charging up and down the ring seemed decidedly OTT.  Actually I really couldn't see just what they were aiming for although it was worse (more common) in the puppy classes though so perhaps it's to encourage the dog to run ahead of the handler... ?

Incidentally the comments in my previous post were to illustrate that my husband can be an unhelpful distraction for the dogs so I'd rather he was out of sight completely! :)

> Incidentally the comments in my previous post were to illustrate that my husband can be an unhelpful distraction for the dogs so I'd rather he was out of sight completely!

That's also what I was saying in my post re companion shows. I also didn't have to train my dog to look for someone he knew ringside - he did it automatically and it was a hindrance, not a help. But it didn't affect any other dogs in the ring, so I can see where sometimes it may be a help if carefully done.

I didn't mean when the dog was moving itself but as the class moves around the ring with dog awaiting their turn, or in the line-up after being seen.

20+ years ago the dog were shown the usual way side on looking at the handler.

...but in the line up after being seen the dogs are standing still ! -

20+ years ago the dog were shown the usual way side on looking at the handler.

very few BSD are shown that way - most are shown as they do on the continent - at the end of the lead facing outwards, especially under breed specialists, but all rounders too like to see Belgians with lots of 'sparkle' - a difficult thing to achieve simply by standing in front of them with a bit of bait !

Yvonne 

> but all rounders too like to see Belgians with lots of 'sparkle' - a difficult thing to achieve simply by standing in front of them with a bit of bait !

Didn't I hear that a CC was withheld recently in BSDs (sorry can't remember which type) because the dogs weren't sufficiently animated? If the stakes are that high you can see why people do attract from outside the ring