An interesting analysis has been published by VetCompass (and posted on the JH blog) about longevity of purebred v crossbred dogs.  However, it has several serious flaws that I can see, including the classification of pure or cross bred at vets, but more importatnly the verificaiton of age.  I would have thought that a lot of crossbreds and rescue dogs have very uncertain ages, and certainly not known dates of birth which can affect the data.  However one of the stated assumptions is about pedigree dogs who die at home.  They state that they think the majority of dogs who die at home will already be under veterinary treatment, and the deaths will be included in figures passed to them by Vet. surgeries.  Several people, including me, don't think this is a valid assumption to make.  Certainly, of the last 4 dogs I lost all died at home, and only 1 was notified to the vet.  The others died of old age, quietly and naturally, and it never occurred to me to tell the vets.  If this is the common practice which I think it is, it makes the figures totally skewed. 

So I wondered, am I alone in not letting the vet know when a dog dies?  How does everyone else deal with this?  OF course, it may come up in conversation  with my vet at sometime, but I am positive it never gets recorded on the computer.

I've only had one die at home without the vet there, I did tell them she'd died, just out of courtesy really, she was being treated and was expected to die, but it happened so suddenly there was no time for the vet.
My vet had always been fond of her so I naturally thought she'd want to know.

> The others died of old age, quietly and naturally, and it never occurred to me to tell the vets.  If this is the common practice which I think it is, it makes the figures totally skewed. 

But similarly the owners of cross bred dogs will not be officially informing their vet in these circumstances.
I also suspect,in many cases, the vet will become aware of the death of a dog somewhat informally but will probably mark their record accordingly, when the owner arrives to register a new puppy.
Regarding guessing the age of rescue dogs it depends on whether you think the errors will be random and are just as likely to take years off as add them on in which case the effect would be neutral.

I've not been lucky enough to have any dogs die at home without help :-(  one did die whilst we were away, but we did call the vet out and she was pts in my caravan... I would tell the vet though if any did die, but perhaps if I only had one dog then I may not....

of my dogs

pedigrees - GSDs died at 12 and nearly 14, my cross breed died at 11 and so did my working sheep dog, but do the vets count them as a pedigree?  the KC treat them not as border collies, and even encourage people with definite crosses to register them as WSDs (or they did a while back) but they're really pedigree too.

I let them know with Henry because I'd had a vet appointment booked that afternoon when I came home to find him in the back garden. Also I had no idea of what was usually done. They were very good though, organised the pet cremation and let us have some time in a room with him before we had to leave him there.

So far I have only had one leave me and that was at the vets. I would tell the vet as I wouldn't want any reminders sent through re check up's etc.

Interesting point as to how they can come up with reliable figures.

I've never had a dog die at home but plenty of cats and no, I've never informed them, not in any other sense that that at some point saying such and such an animal can be taken off my records as I no longer have it -the reason for which may of course be that it has been rehomed and not necessarily died.

> Interesting point as to how they can come up with reliable figures.

They will not be reliable figures in the sense of a death register but if the sample is big enough it can be representative and could therefore have some meaning. 
Like all studies it should be looked at along side all other data.

As far as I can see, this study is simply going to be able show the average age of death of dogs who are notified to vets, and that average age will be a guestimate in the case of lots of rescues.  I also think quite a few pet people have a habit of adding a year or 2 on to age when a dog reaches it's later years - in a kind of a "Doesn't he look good for 14?"  when in fact the dog is 12.

From responses here it seems that so far my none reporting  is a minority, interested to see what other replies come in.

I do think a study of this kind could be useful, but this particular one is relying too much on the accuracy of the info. held at the vets.

Never had a dog die at home without the vet in attendance. However if it were to happen I would inform the vet, not just because they would take care of the cremation but because my vets know my dogs very well and would want to be told.
I suppose I see the vet every month at least for medication for Granny Pepsi and so we are in touch regularly and they would want to know if she passed at home quietly. Same for any other dog I suppose.
Aileen

I've always involved our vets as we've so far only ever lost large breed dogs and have always had them cremated there. That's a practical decision as much as anything else, not being blessed with acres of space for large scale burials. Not sure what I'll do with my toy breed when the time comes as there's obviously not the same space issue involved.

On balance I think I would let the vet know if I lost one at home as it's likely they would have been treating the dog. Apart from anything else, I would return any medication left over.

I find this a strange question, as I must have a very good relationship with my vet. I would not consider not letting them know if one of my dogs died at home. I feel that i am so lucky to have such good vets, they would be shocked if i didnt tell them.

As I want the Vets to deal with disposal (don't do burial or keeping ashes) then they would know, but maybe not as the lat two were out of hours service. 

One died at home and I took the body in early evening, and the other was PTS in August on a Saturday evening.

My foundation bitch was PTS by my own vet in the morning.

> As far as I can see, this study is simply going to be able show the average age of death of dogs who are notified to vets, and that average age will be a guestimate in the case of lots of rescues.

But as the guestimate was just as likely to be an underestimate of age as an over it should not make too much difference over all. 
Nor should adding years on in the dogs dotage as both groups are just as likely to do this but many will have records dating back to before that stage anyway I would have thought.

I've not been lucky enough to have any dogs die at home without help :-(

Same here, I have always had to love them enough to give them the final release. 

My vet sends booster reminders out to clients, and I wouldn't like to receive a reminder for a deceased dog, so I guess I would let him know if a dog died naturally.  I see him so often anyway, it would feel right to let him know.

I find this a strange question, as I must have a very good relationship with my vet. I would not consider not letting them know if one of my dogs died at home. I feel that i am so lucky to have such good vets, they would be shocked if i didnt tell them.

I too find this quite a strange question.  There can't be many people who's dog suddenly dies at home for no apparent reason.  If a dog had been ill, hopefully it will have been seen by a vet for a diagnosis and follow up appointments made, which you would then have to cancel and tell receptionist why...

Then there are disposal issues, how many people still bury their pets in the garden?  We did without first one, but then moved house and had to leave her there so vowed we'd never to it again although we would prefer burial.  I now have the ashes back in lovely caskets which are on display so they are never far from me...

I would consider it  a matter of courtesy to inform my vet that an animal of mine had died - I too have an excellent relationship with my vet and the nurses and they often ask about another dog when I'm in there, especially the oldies. 

The majority of mine have died at home and I have not advised my vet. Though with my Spanish they seem to be the ones that show more of a warning that somethings not right and all have needed to be pts.

>So I wondered, am I alone in not letting the vet know when a dog dies?  How does everyone else deal with this?  OF course, it may come up in conversation  with my vet at sometime, but I am positive it never gets recorded on the computer.

Many people don't tell us at the time when their pet has died, but invariably do when they receive the annual booster reminder. The pet is then marked as 'deceased' on the computer.

However rehomed animals are often marked as 'deceased' for the same reason, when in fact the animal is alive and well and probably on another vet's system.

I've only had one die at home without vet help - I told the vet a few days later (she died on a saturday).  She was under treatment but not from them - she was on a study into Vetmedin use in dobes for DCM, so was actually under Liverpool uni.  The only thing my vets had done was a 48 hour holter 5 weeks before.  But I'm a bit neurotic this way - I like all the info to be up to date whether needed or not, so they were told.

Fortunately I'm rarely at my vet, my litters have been one every 2 years, we don't routinely vaccinate and I buy wormer and flea treatment online. We have been recently for an ultrasound to confirma phantom, and for antibiotics as my boy was bitten In PAH and it turned nasty. I don't get to build up a relationship with them which is a.shame as I can't judge their competency and I've moved around a lot lately. I don't know if I would tell them as I don't think i know them well enough and my dogs mean so much to me I'd be hurt if they didn't show emotion. Which I.dont think.they would as they don't know me or them well enough. Anyone that does would.know.id be.heartbroken and id get a hug at least.

This is interesting,  I must have been very lucky to have oldies who have slipped away due to old age, without any need for veterinary treatment.  I have a great relationship with my vet, but my adults very rarely attend the surgery.  I collect routine wormers etc, take pups for vaccinations and to puppy playschool, but apart form that only occasionally have to attend, usually with an eye injury or for whelping reasons.  So my vet has never built up a relationship with my older dogs , apart from 1.  Even my old cat, who died at 20 years and 1month, simply died in his sleep from old age - he had never been ill.

So far we only have 1 or 2 other people answering here in a similar situation.

To those who think this is a strange question - not sure why, this is not a personal thing, but I was concerned about a recent research study which is comparing age of death of purebred v cross bred and seems to be starting from a point of unreliable data.  The vet who compiled the paper has made certain assumptions about the accuracy of records supplied by about 200  vet. surgeries.

Again as pointed out it can be very easy to forget a dogs age, and with KC registration their ages can be confirmed, but unless a crossbred/unregistered dog started it's puppy vaccinations at that vets there is no way to be sure years did not get added, and with older re-homed dogs age is guesswork at best.

My friend has a nice new vet and took in her old boy of 13 1/2 for a once over, who said he was getting a bit portly for stud work.  She had to remind him the dog was in his 14th year, and she had no wish to see him expire in that blissful fashion.

Yes, a lovely small local practise & we're regulars!

Also (being flippant), they know income & pension plans will be effected !

Yes, I keep in touch with my vets and like them, they know my dogs well and care for them properly, it would feel weird to not tell them.

Not answering anyone in particular. I'm interested how many people think it 'luckier' to have the dog die at home. I suppose it's different if you are with the dog, but I was and still am devastated that Henry died alone in the back garden without me saying goodbye and cuddling him as he went. I'd much rather have had to take him to the vet then find him gone like that!

Oh Lucy, I empathise with you. I would feel the same. With us, our girl had osteosarcoma so we knew what was coming. While it would have been nicer to be able to have her at home, with the way it happened in the end, we jus had to rush to a vet at 4am. Despite that, I m so thankful we were with our baby and got to say a proper goodbye to her.

I was devastated too that my girl died alone at home. When I found her I phoned my vet straight away (not really knowing what to do I guess). I was home alone at the time so I put her in the van and took her to the vet and we had her cremated by them. I didn't want to bury her here as I know this isn't our 'forever' home, I have her ashes in a box and when we do find our forever home she will be buried there. I would do the same for all of the others I think too.

Gwen I'm the same as you especially with the Pom's.  They seem to live to a ripe old age without any health problems and they can be fine one day and die the next, usually around the age of 16.

My Spanish have alway been health too but Lydia showed signs of not being well 3 weeks before I had her PTS.  She'd only had one illness before then in her 15 years requiring an operation at the age of 12 and even then she only needed to be seen once before the operation and once after the operation.  She was fit and well three weeks before her death and then showed a massive stomach tumour in a very short length of time.

Dilita was fit and well and other than glaucoma which didn't require any treatment as the pressures stayed low she never went to the vets.  Sadly her other eye went blind with old age and she went deaf around the same time and couldn't cope with losing her sight and hearing at the same time so had her PTS.  Her heart and everything else was fine but she would just throw herself to the ground when she needed to go out and wasn't enjoying life.

I have always said that the KC need to have a place on the system that shows up when we look at dogs health tests which can show when a dog died. 

Then there are disposal issues, how many people still bury their pets in the garden? 

Legally speaking you are not allowed to, but we certainly do. We have no plans to ever move from here and with cremation being so expensive, we now have a few dogs buried in our front gardens. Plus numerous cats -much cheaper than paying the vet either for routine cremation or individual. However when it comes to Ripley's time (in another, oh 50 or 60 years or so I'd hope? ;) She's only 12 now ) I will want her cremated as her ashes are to be buried with me in a green burial park and I can't guarantee we will die on the same day so needs must.

> Legally speaking you are not allowed to, but we certainly do

Me too.  I have always worried that the ashes that came back to me were not from my dog.  I have 12 buried in my garden.  A couple of Collies, the rest small dogs.  My concern as I age is that my current 3 Collies will have to be cremated, as I am no longer able to dig a hole that deep in solid clay.  I understood that you are allowed to bury pets on your own land, unless it was next to a water course.

>Legally speaking you are not allowed to, but we certainly do.

It's not illegal to bury pets in your garden, as long as you don't pollute a watercourse and as long as it isn't 'hazardous waste'. Heck, even people cen be buried in their own gardens!

Garden burials.

Certainly been told in the past both by council and vets (one vet said it was even illegal to bury as much as a mouse at home!) that it is against the law.

Found this: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/InYourHome/AnimalsAndPets/Dogs/DG_175858
1.25 metres!!!

Still bury ours in the garden not that we've had to for a long time.  Though actually don't do it in mine do it at my mum and dad's because if anything ever happens to them I want to live at their house definitely not at mine. 

You'd have to go deeper than that her to stop foxes digging them up.

I expect most of the ashes I got back were the dog towel that was the nearest thing to hand to wrap Henry in. I still rather regret that towel, it was just the right size and amount of absorption and fluffiness! We dithered a lot about scattering the ashes or burying them, but in the end we buried them under my Freddie Mercury rosebush, which was a wedding present and moved with us from our last house. I hope not to move again, but if we do that rosebush and therefore some part of Henry (and any other dogs by then) will come with us.

> 1.25 metres!!!

Marianne, that's only just over 4 foot.  I think you would want it at least that deep, if not more, for a large dog.

> unless a crossbred/unregistered dog started it's puppy vaccinations at that vets there is no way to be sure years did not get added

....or taken away. 
As I keep saying, if the study is large enough, and with 200 vets it seems it could be, then these things are likely to be evened out.

Stooge, I have tried to ignore your efforts to reply here, as you always seem to find a way to disagree with other posters, however I cannot see the point in you trying to push your opinion that there is any value in a study in which almost all the variable are, at best guestimates for a fair proportion of the dogs - the purpose of this study was to show average lifespans of pedigree v crosses.  Leaving aside lots of problems with the  identification of these categories by vets records alone, you have said several times here that if an estimate or increased age figure has been given that is OK as it will effect both sides.  How can we know that?  The point is, unless accurate ages can be assured then the whole study is no more than an interesting excercise with no actual value.   However, it is the sort of thing which can be picked up by the Media, RSPCA etc as being factual, which was why I wanted to get some other views as to practices of owners when a dog dies.

> I'm interested how many people think it 'luckier' to have the dog die at home. I suppose it's different if you are with the dog, but I was and still am devastated that Henry died alone in the back garden

So sorry to hear that Lucy, I think I was considering myself lucky that both Junior and Puglet died very quietly at home, by my side, with no illness or pain, they simply went to sleep and passed away.  I still mourn for both of them, but the loss was much easier than when i have had to have a dog put to sleep.

>I'm interested how many people think it 'luckier' to have the dog die at home

This is such a difficult one.  While I have always wished that I didn't have to make the call myself, I remember so clearly how I felt when you posted about losing Henry. 

Lucy I can't even imagine your shock and grief, so although I have had to decide on PTS, I agree with you that, heartbreaking though it is, being with them at the vets has got to be easier to deal with.

My 3 previous dogs were all put to sleep by my vet.

I did once come home to the body of an adored cat, who had died of a heart attack. I still remember the awful shock and so, so feel for those who have had that happen with a dog.

Even when it breaks your heart, there is a comfort to being able to say goodbye.

> however I cannot see the point in you trying to push your opinion that there is any value in a study in which almost all the variable are

I don't think that is any different to trying to push your opinion that is has no value is it?  I don't deny you your opinion so not sure why you think it an affront that I should have mine.
I think this is just the sort of study that helps establish the whole picture of where health is or isn't in dogs.  Of course it will not hold all the facts but anyone used to reading and evaluating research will take it in the context of how the study was produced and in the context of all the other available data.   These type of studies also help establish theories which others will take forward for further research.

>you have said several times here that if an estimate or increased age figure has been given that is OK as it will effect both sides. How can we know that?

We can't nor can we see any evidence for bias. In a small study any slight discrepancy could skew the figures but, as I keep saying, if the study is large enough any differences will become less significant. 

> However, it is the sort of thing which can be picked up by the Media, RSPCA etc as being factual

Unfortunately they may, the media anyway, as they rarely report research in a sensible way but that does not justify not doing it surely.

> which was why I wanted to get some other views as to practices of owners when a dog dies.

Again, I can't see why practices should be any different between a pedigree dog owner or not so where would the bias lie?

Is this the study you are referring to, Gwen
http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VetCompass/Index.cfm

This is the link:http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VetCompass/documents/Poster_SVEPM_2012_DONeill.pdf  So far only ot the poster, not the actual study.

Stooge, I think you are missing my point.  If a substantial percentage of the figures can only be assumed or are guesses without possibility of verification then the study has little value.  And if guesses are being made, then the odds are that the author will bias some of the figures towards his (or her) own particular theory anyway. 

A valid study, following a sufficiently large group of dogs from birth to death would give the sort of information which will give a true picture.  Taking a bunch of information on age at date of death relying solely on vet records does not give this.  One of the vets assumptions is that the vast majority of dogs who die at home will be included in this data.  This is why I asked the original question, as in my own experience this is not so, and I wondered what the situation was for others here.  It has already been pointed out to the vet that healthy dogs who die at home of old age coudl make a big difference to his findings, and he has disagreed.  I thought some illustrative figures from here might help a different picture emerge.

The only time ive informed my vets of a pets death was when they were being treated for something or if ive called up to make an appoitment for something else and they asked if it was for the animal that had died. I think my rabbit is still on my records with the local veys who died about 3 years ago. I have use to burry my pets but now have them all cremated privatly, even had by budgie cremated. The ashes are on my fire place and when i go they are all comming with me.

I always inform my vet of any passing of any animal as it stops the vaccination and health check due date cards coming through the door, I also pop in for a clean up of my records after a litter as they are registered after their health checks/ vaccs/ chips on my records so I like my vet to know which animals I have and no longer have. :-)

Exactly Jean and Hants - a peaceful death at home is perhaps easier on the animal, but missing those goodbyes was hard. I would never judge those who are too upset to stay while the vet puts a pet to sleep but I always intended to be there for my dogs. Still, typical Hen, always did everything his own way!

I know what you mean Lucydogs, our first bernese died at the vets after being kept in overnight - he was on his own and I think if I'd known that he would be on his own overnight I would have insisted he come home - I'm filling up just at the thought of it now and it was 17 years ago! The only other one that I have had to deal with was Dakko and although he was PTS at the vet we stayed with him (he was 14 and a half). We are at the vet quite regularly with one or other of the animals so would probably let them know if anything happened to the dogs or cats but not the small furries. I have the ashes of both dogs but we have various cats, small furries, birds and fish buried in the garden.