I'm contemplating spaying my bitch. Mostly as she is a pet and lives indoors as part of the family and the house is carpetted etc. so it would be nice not to have to cope with the mess and clear up during her seasons or for her not to be allowed in the living areas for days at a time plus vets recommend spaying to avoid health problems don't they?

However I know of bitches that became incontinent following a spay, and one that needed to be put down as the family were unable to cope with the chaos that created. I have emailed a vet friend to ask him about this (he's not a local vet) and his answer just now is that 30% of bitches will become incontinent after a spay, there are no guarantees that mine won't and in fact his own bitch is now incontinent following her spay.

That really worries me. The mess/clear up inconvenience during a season is far preferable and easier to cope with than an incontinent bitch all year round. I just wondered what your experiences are, do any of you spay your bitches and have any of you experienced incontinence in them afterwards and if so how have you dealt with this?

Atm I'm thinking I won't spay her.

I last read that it was 20% who became incontinent after spaying, but it might have changed in the last few years. However it's a condition that can usually be controlled easily and often cheaply with medication, removes the biannual need to be confined to barracks for three weeks, and makes the very real risk of life-threatening pyometritis almost zero.

(And yes, one of my bitches became incontinent after spaying, so I have experienced this.)

I have had all my bitches spayed all at between 5 1/2 and 7 years of age, kept them trim and have not had any incontinent up to death (between 11 and 14 years).

It is a medium size breed, all were bred from at least twice, only one ever a had mammary tumour (pea size).

My main reason for spaying was prevention of Pyometra in old age.

Of the four bitches spayed belonging to our family, two became incontinent (small breed), and the other two (large breeds)were fine.

Of those who have had incontinent dogs, how do you deal with it? As in what medication and how is it administered, how often and how much does this cost? And are there any accidents despite that treatment?

What are the chances of Pyometra? All this said, I've had bitches all my life and they've all been spayed with no incontinence but lately I seem to know so many people whose bitches are affected by it. Is it anything to do with the vets? Is it better to get a top vet rather than one who has not had so many years of practice or is it nothing to do with the vet?

>Of those who have had incontinent dogs, how do you deal with it? As in what medication and how is it administered, how often and how much does this cost? And are there any accidents despite that treatment?

There are three medications that I know of; Propalin and Urilin which are drops and Incurin which are tablets. I found that the tablets worked really well with my 25kg bitch, and she only needed half a tablet every other day to keep her dry. Nowadays that would cost about £15 for two months.

The problem is nothing to do with the quality of the surgery - it's due to the lack of hormones weakening the muscles of the bladder sphincter, although in some cases it's due to the bladder itself slipping rearwards in the bitch's abdomen because the tissue that connects it to the uterus for support have of course been removed. When the bladder slips back it causes a kink in the urethra where urine pools and then comes out when the bitch is relaxed.

If you've had spayed bitches all your life who've never suffered from it you'll know that the majority don't suffer from it at all. Your current bitch is no more likely to suffer from it than any of the others.

Yes, I'm trying to tell myself this but this bitch is the most amazing precious dog in the world! I couldn't bear it for things to go wrong. And though I have had bitches all my life, this one is only my fourth as I've only had one at a time.

With one of my previous bitches (the Irish Setter) at my request they left one ovary in so that her coat remained in good condition and she wouldn't put on weight etc. Anyone else done that?

> Yes, I'm trying to tell myself this but this bitch is the most amazing precious dog in the world! I couldn't bear it for things to go wrong.

It's really not a big deal, try not to worry so much about it.  My last dog was spayed at around 2yrs, and developed spay incontinence shortly afterwards; I took her on at 5yrs so it was well established then.

Without medication it was floods - with medication (in her case propalin) there was no leaking whatsoever.

As far as weight goes, if you adjust food accordingly they shouldn't put on weight and I do get annoyed when people blame their dog's neutering for them getting fat - I have 8 dogs, all are neutered, only one of them is overweight and that is due to severe arthritis (winning the battle slowly).  All their coats are fantastic too and did not change at all post-neuter.

>With one of my previous bitches (the Irish Setter) at my request they left one ovary in

Surely then she came into season and ovulated as normal, and was attractive to dogs, even though she couldn't become pregnant? I couldn't be doing with having that problem, having to keep my bitch in isolation as before.

I would have said that the risk of pyo is far greater than that of incontinence and much more likely to result in the death of the bitch. I'm not sure how many bitches I've had spayed without sitting down and calculating, but like Brainless I tend to spay them when middle aged, around 7 or so, when finished breeding -although I have had a few that have been spayed earlier, such as one Papillon who had two litters but only managed one live puppy in total, so she was spayed aged just 3. I've so far only had one bitch that became incontinent.

Jeangenie, my semi spayed bitch hormonally came into season the only visible part of that being swollen vulva and she'd lick/clean herself there. No dogs were attracted to her however so she didn't need to stay in and with no bleeding it seemed ideal. I think Irish Setters coats do thicken and dry after spaying where other breeds don't. It was an operation talked about widely in the Irish Setter societies at the time and it was through the societies that I found out about that option.

I have a 12 year old BC who came to me at the age of about 18mth from rescue. She had already been spayed when i got her.
Always after a good run or walk she would leak urine while she was asleep/resting and despite countless trips to the vets with urine samples (don't ask) and coming away with antibiotics the problem never went away. I was told it was something we would have to get used to as long as i didn't mind cleaning up after her. Despite seeing two different veterinary surgeries, spay incontinence was never mentioned to me. I used to hate seeing her like this and how uncomfortable she must have been.
She has been dry for more than a year and a half now and the only change i have made in her lifestyle is her diet, she is raw fed. How her diet could effect her spay incontinence i don't know or was it her complete dog food diet that caused her to leak urine in the first place. Either way she's a much happier girl. 6 months ago i had my other bitch spayed who is 7 years old through key hole surgery. It cost me an arm and a leg but to date no leaking urine.
I've always had laminate flooring so mopping up after her was never an issue. I bought her as a rescue, warts and all. 

>No dogs were attracted to her however so she didn't need to stay in and with no bleeding it seemed ideal.

You were really lucky because I've personally known three bitches (and my vet has known more) where a very small - almost microscopic - scrap of ovary has been left behind during a conventional spaying and the bitches have come in season as normal, swelling and being extremely attractive to, and receptive to, males. They needed a repeat operation to try to find the tissue to remove it.

She has been dry for more than a year and a half now and the only change i have made in her lifestyle is her diet, she is raw fed. How her diet could effect her spay incontinence i don't know or was it her complete dog food diet that caused her to leak urine in the first place.

I know of one other dog where a diet change to raw had such a dramatic effect. It does seem that diet may have an effect in some cases of incontinence.

I don't normally spay my bitches.  I have through other issues though but if I don't NEED to, I wouldn't ever.  My old bitch was recently spayed and has started to leak.  Just a little but I am now going to have to seek meds for this as she is leaking onto the beds now.  Also, it is upsetting her.  She panics when she leaks and jumps up and starts cleaning like a mad thing.  I feel so bad for her but I am just trying to show her that it's OK.
I would rather run the risk with pyo or mammory tumours than get the definate urinary problems that spayed bitches seem to get.
PS My other 2 bitches were large breed and they too leaked but they were kennel dogs so not so much of a problem.  The bitch I have now is small gundog and a house pet. 

A recent conversation with my vet concluded that the risk of Pyometra (throughout a bitches life) is far greater than developing age related incontinence in later life. He told me that incontinence is only ever found in spayed bitches. He may be right but from experience of bitches I have owned (and spayed), only one has gone on to later develope age related incontinence. It was a nuisance but it can be controlled with drugs. It would not put me off spaying in the future. The incidence of incontinence in recently spayed bitches would not appear to be that common if the posts on this forum are anything to go by. It may happen but then so may many other, much more serious issues.

I would take the risk of incontinence over the risk of a pyo any day of the week. Pyo's, particularly closed ones are insidious and deadly. I have known several people who have lost their bitches to closed pyos. Personally I've only to deal with open ones but they are bad enough.

All my bitches are spayed around 6 or7, I just will not take the risk and none of them have suffered  incontinence afterwards. You can propalin and incurin for any incontinence that occurs but it is by no means a certainty that it will occur. I have 3 spayed bitches at the moment, none of them have it, my mothers and sisters dogs are spayed and they are fine also. Neither pyo's or incontinence are sure fire happenings in a bitch life but the thing to remember is that pyo's are killers, incontinence isn't.

>the thing to remember is that pyo's are killers, incontinence isn't.

*Like* That's the right perspective to put on the decision.

I'm interested to understand how exactly the drugs stop the incontinence? Anyone know what they actually do? If it is the lack of kink in the urethra, how a drug could help that?

Benji, how old is your bitch?

Recent studies have found that the ovaries in bitches provide protective effects for the bitch, resulting in increased longevity (in the same way that women tend to live longer than men, in our species).  No one knows exactly how the ovaries function in this way; more research is needed - but findings indicate that bitches who have remained intact until age 6/7 yrs are much more likely to live an extremely long life than bitches spayed below 4 yrs. 

The research for this is here:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805875/?tool=pubmed

Here are some significant quotes:

Like women, female dogs were more likely than males to achieve exceptional longevity (OR, 95% CI = 2.0, 1.2-3.3; P= 0.006). However, removal of ovaries during the first 4 years of life (i.e. median age at ovariectomy) erased the female survival advantage over males (OR, 95% CI = 1.2, 0.7-2.2; P= 0.55). In females that retained their ovaries for more than 4 years, likelihood of exceptional longevity increased to more than three times that of males (OR, 95% CI = 3.2, 1.8-5.7; P< 0.0001).

...dogs with the longest ovary exposure (6.1-8.0 years) were 3.2 times more likely to reach exceptional longevity than dogs with shortest exposure (P= 0.002) (Table 2; Supporting Fig. S1). ...

...After excluding all cancer deaths, females who kept their ovaries during the first 7 years of life (i.e. highest tertile of ovary exposure) were more than nine times more likely to reach exceptional longevity than females with shortest ovary exposure (P= 0.001)...

... In a population of 237 female Rottweiler dogs who died at 1.3-12.9 years, females that had intact ovaries for the first 4.5 years of life had 37% lower mortality than females that underwent elective ovariectomy before 4.5 years, i.e., median age at ovariectomy (hazard ratio, 95% CI = 0.63, 0.49-0.82; P < 0.0001 log-rank test). ...

...we observed a robust ovarian association with longevity that was independent of cause of death, suggesting that a network of processes regulating the intrinsic rate of aging is under ovarian control. ... "

What I draw from this paper is that we are not yet clear exactly when is the 'optimal' time to spay, but it appears to be some time between 4.5 yrs and 8 yrs.  The longer you can wait within that time-frame, the more protective 'ovary exposure' your dog will receive, and the better her chances of living a long life. 

The risk of pyo, although it exists, is not massive for a bitch under the age of 8yrs.  Personally, I would want to spay at age 6/7 yrs to prevent pyo, whilst also ensuring maximum exposure to ovaries for the bitch concerned.

That would coincide with what many breeders do spaying their bitches at the end of their reproductive lives. 

My youngest to be spayed was 5 1/2 and oldest 7 1/2 years old.

>I'm interested to understand how exactly the drugs stop the incontinence? Anyone know what they actually do?

It basically comes down to a lack of estrogen. Estrogen is responsible for providing tone to the sphincter muscle in the bladder.  When you spay a bitch you remove the ovaries which are a source of that hormone. The adrenal gland also produces small quantities of estrogen and in many cases this is enough to keep everything working smoothly. However, for the bitches that it is not enough, drugs can be administered that replace the missing estrogen which inturn helps keep the muscle tone. The quantity of drugs needed varies from bitch to bitch.

Thanks admin, that makes sense

Rabid, my bitch will be 3 next month. What you say makes sense and I may well wait. She's so precious the thought of extra years and months with her would be worth it definitely.

Agreed, Brainless - also having litters would provide some further protection against pyo, as it reduces the chances further.  (Not to encourage breeding for that reason, but it is an extra benefit.)

My girls have all been spayed. Some young, and some by 6 or 7. No problems to report of any kind :)

I also work with a rescue and we spay all dogs before rehoming, also no problems to report :)

I know what you mean about spots on the carpets and furniture! When I just had one bitch, she wore bitch pants when I was home and she was curled up on the sofa with me, and obviously I took them off if she wanted to go to the toilet or if I was going out so she would be in the kitchen. It's harder to do with 3 bitches though, and I do wonder whether having the pants on, though I changed the pad frequently and allowed plenty of time for air to circulate, whether it was a factor in her having infections post-season, which she hasn't had on the last couple of seasons. We have wood flooring now, so all I need to do is put covers on the sofas and wash them when she's finished. :-)

> We have wood flooring now, so all I need to do is put covers on the sofas and wash them when she's finished. :-)

Quite agree. We're a carpet-free zone here now, much easier to keep clean.