Does anyone have experience of owning a dog in partnership with someone else?

How would it usually work - who would pay for show entries, vets bills, insurance, health testing, food, training etc.

Who takes the stud fees or are things split etc. if the dog is used?

We really can only keep bitches  as we don't want the risk of a mating but there is a dog we very much like in our recent litter who we'd love to show/ have shown and use in future breeding plans.

Our mentor mentioned breeding terms loans and ownership in partnership as an option but said she doesn't have any experience with the terms. 

Any ideas/ experiences good and bad are welcome.  We really couldn't care less about the money just love the dog and we were so excited about the lines but unfortunately no bitches in the litter and we won't consider a repeat mating as our girl is now 5 1/2 and we feel 2 medium sized litters is enough for her.

Thanks

not personally, but I believe that it's in agreement with the two parties, so basically it's up to you and whoever else owns the dog  .....  another option often used is that you retain ownership and someone else keeps the dog at their house.... they will feed and look after, you would pay for health tests and it's between the two of you over everything else, perhaps you'd pay and show him and that any stud fees would also be negotiable... you would perhaps get a bitch pup from a future litter...

I owned a dog we imported in a 4 way partnership.

We decided in advance the length of the partnership (6 years from release from Q).

I kept the accounts, and we all put money in the kittty which I paid out from.  Every so often another £50 - £100 each was put in.

The person he lived with was given a monthly allowance for his keep.

I tell you it is really scary how much it costs to buy, quarantine, keep and show a dog.  He was used 8 times at stud and we were all well out of pocket despite this.  the person showing him didn't even charge for the fuel for shows etc, unless the trip was only for him.

My mum had a dog in partnership & its not something we would do again..the logistics of it all is too complicated, if you can have/buy the dog outright, it would be what I would recommend...

I own a dog in partnership. I only keep bitches and in my last litter there was a very promising dog pup as well as the bitch pup that I kept.
Anyway I gave him to a very good friend, we actually always go to the shows together and although he is in our joint names, she pays all expenses, so basically he is her dog. We are both happy with this and he has won 1cc and 2 res ccs. We have nothing in writing but I trust her completely and have known her for over 40 years,

I have one dog and one bitch in partnership (different breeds so therefore different people involved). The bitch lives here, the dog does not. In both cases, the person who the dog/bitch lives with pays show entries, food and similar. Therefore when there is a stud fee for the dog, I let the person who he lives with keep it. I contribute 50 % to his insurance, the bitch is not insured. Both are totally informal agreements with friends I really trust. The pups from the bitch will be shared. The dog I can use without paying a stud fee, and have done -but I let the other person have two pups for free.

Be very careful in who you let have your pup, if you do go into joint ownership. No-one knows what is round the corner. The other person may not be able to take care of the dog through illness, death, etc, or you may just fall out. I would get an agreement made up by a solicitor just to make it legal. Make sure you have gone through all the possibilities and both parties agree to what you want.

In saying that I have a young male here in ownership with his breeder. We don't have a legal agreement but basically I pay for everything ;-) The only problem will be when it comes to him going to stud (far too early just now, he's only 8 months old :-) ) as we may not agree on the bitch he is to be used on. He is the 3rd pup I have had from this breeder (a very very good friend) so we can't see any problems coming up. But you never know.

Sorry but another of having been there wouldn't do it again!

Interesting thread as I am considering this for a planned litter, I want to keep a bitch but would also really like to have a boy in partnership to be shown and used in mine and my breeder/friend/mentors future breeding plans but currently have a boy who I think would object to a boy staying after 6 months old!
I know it can be done as my friend currently has this sort of agreement, no charge was made for the pup, he is in joint names, shown by both, owner keeps all the trophy's etc, he holidays with the breeder if needed so no kennel fees, and stud fees will belong to breeder. So they both benefit.
so far it has been ok. I would only change a few things in this agreement to suit me ie I would want to make sure the pup is insured so will pay for that myself and also depending on how many litters he would sire I would offer them a pup in the future (free of partnership).
OP I think you will have to think very carefully about your wants and needs in the partnership remaining as fair as possible and then find someone who agrees with you and is willing to sign a contract.
Paula

Thank you for your comments, I really appreciate all your experiences both good and bad.  We were recommended to put an advert in the breed club newsletter but to be honest I think after reading this it could only be a close friend.

The type of agreement I was thinking was they would have the pup for free, we would pay health testing and most show entries (if they wanted to take him to shows themselves they could at their own cost).  We would deal with any stud duties and they could have half the stud fee. 

I do have a friend in mind who might be looking for another dog but there's so much to consider - what if they move etc, what if it needs more ringcraft would I have to drive over and collect him each week etc. Getting him to be groomed for shows and 5am pick ups.

This is all getting more complicated the more I think about it...

Get everything in writing. I nearly went into partnership with someone with one of my older bitches that I'd decided I wasn't going to show anymore, and personally didn't want to breed from again. In the end I decided not to as I felt she was trying to railroad me into things I didn't want to do or things I hadn't agreed to. Everything we discussed over the phone, somehow got translated differently by her, and she'd then send an email outlining what she thought had been said, only it hadn't been, and everything seemed to come out in her favour.

In the end I ended up selling her the bitch, it has caused a rift between us, and we are no longer on speaking terms.

Agree, be it friend, relative and stranger get everything in writing that way no one gets a shock and everyone knows the score. It does not matter who pays for what but it does matter that all parties know and if stud or litters are involved then that need to be agreed and recorded in detail, no surprise equals no problems.

I have had 2 bitches now on breeding terms, both breeders had known me for some time and I had dogs from them in the past, each time they have been transferred into my name, the first one nearly 2yrs old and had pups 12 weeks before I picked her up, I owed pick of litter bitch back,studs were recommended  as I didn't know many back then in the breed and the present one 10 months old when I got her I owe a pup back but not necessary pick of litter if I want to keep it for myself, free use of her studs or use my own or another outside stud, no time limit was placed on how quickly I produced said pups by either breeder.

Others I know mainly in the US have a time limit as to how long the contract is to continue before the dog is signed over to the person it lives with, the time may be measured in so many litters produced or stud services offered. I have heard of some spectacular break down in these contracts even between those who have been friends for years.

Myself I would let a show potential male go on shared ownership as I can't add any more here but may want his genes into my programme further down the line, I would have some say on the bitches he was used on as I would have to sign off on the paperwork or the pups would not be registered with the KC. Not happy to let a bitch go on terms unless I knew the breeder very well.

I think it all depends on how close your friendship is, I think a partnership will only work well if you both are on the same wave length

All my dogs are in partnership with my mentor (who is my closest friend!) we have nothing written down but we don't feel we need to, my 3 dogs all live with me and I expect nothing for up keep, vets or entries etc

Stud fee's basically cover my cost of getting over to the UK and anything left over we split which is usually spent on dog food, fuel etc etc

ETA - stud fees don't really cover the cost of the dogs and we are always out of pocket (studs are usually just a nice boost every so often) but the dogs are our pets & it's a hobby not a business for us :)

Sorry but I wouldn't even do this with a friend, known to many "friendships" to end over this sort of thing and legal cases to happen too. 

I bred a gorgeous dog, sold him a lot cheaper as I wanted if he had good health tests to be used as it was a pairing that hadn't been done before.  There was only three in the litter and all were stunning, but sadly not a single one is being used which is a shame as we are a rare breed.  In reality now I wouldn't have sold him if I'd known that the owners wouldn't do the health testing etc.

> Sorry but I wouldn't even do this with a friend, known to many "friendships" to end over this sort of thing and legal cases to happen too

Each to their own

I have given a bitch to a friend and we are joint owners. I pay nothing and she makes all decisions about her including shows. She bears the costs.
The agreement is that I have one litter from her if she health screens well ( she has) and at my entire expense.

I pay stud and all costs and the litter is mine, she can then assume all ownership rights.

We are friends and if it didnt work out I wouldnt mind, the dog has an excellent home.

But there are 'friends' and then there are 'dog friends'...the latter can be very short lived relationships fuelled by convenience and often not quite what they seem :-(

Don't do it.     However much you may have in writing, and wirnessed, there's always something you didn't anticipate with dogs.    
I had a joint ownership agreement which has ended in court and cost me thousands, even though I was completely in the right :-(

Jo

I am definitely not a breeder, however have read this thread with interest. I have friends who I would trust implicitly with my animals. I even have some 'enemies' I would trust with me dog. Whatever your agreements, whatever your terms and conditions, just be sure that you would KNOW the dog was in a good home should things go bitter between the two of you, otherwise it is the animal that is suffering and that is over and above the importance of your friendship. (Preaching to the converted here, just wanted to add my two pennies as a non-breeder)

I think generallyJosh  Joint ownership refers to ownership on paper, not who the dog lives with on a normal day to day basis.  Though of course occasionally it means the dog is shown or stays with the other owner on occasion, often though it's purely on paper and to do with costs (such as when importing or showing a dog) or breeding rights (stud fees, pups due back etc).

> But there are 'friends' and then there are 'dog friends'...the latter can be very short lived relationships fuelled by convenience and often not quite what they seem :-(

Agree with that toolz, seen this happen so many times, bestest buddies 1 week and the next swearing at each other

When I wrote "We are friends and if it didnt work out I wouldnt mind, the dog has an excellent home" I genuinely meant it.

If both parties dont feel this way then it is likely to break down and fail.
Many relationships based on money and financial value/gain do so ....sadly.

I'm not sure I really understand the point of this - presuming you want to keep a male in joint ownership because you feel his lines will benefit some of your own in the future (presuming all health testing done and results received and ok-'ed)....so why not just use him as a stud in the future rather than co-owning him? Is it so you can have say over what other dogs he may mate with? Personally I don't see anything less than a dog living in your home, as a 24/7 companion, as ownership. All the joy of dogs to me is in living together, going on walks, sharing the sofa, shows, etc etc, not in a piece of paper that says you own a dog you see a few times a year.

Your quite right it is that you retain some control for breeding, or if you can't keep one but show it for the person it lives with it might be in both names.

The joint ownership I was involved with was to import a dog from abroad to widen the gene pool, this involved the costs of importation and Quarantine as it was before Pets passports, even after PETS, the costs to have one kept to 10 months was considerable. 

So joint ownership made it affordable, especially as in a numerically small breed you would never recoup the costs in stud fees, it becomes an investment in the breed.

My joint ownership is for health reasons. With screening at over 2 years old, its way too early to know which bitch will be the healthier.... so letting a bitch live with someone else makes sense if I keep the sister.
Makes it more likely that she gets plenty of the ..."going on walks, sharing the sofa, shows, etc etc" than if I keep them all.

Read this with great interest I a longtime ago had a girl in co- ownership which was based on mutual agreement  girl lived here I paid all food ,shows  etc co owner paid stud fee and choce of stud She had had first pick I had second pick she 3rd etc any odd remaining pup selling price equally shared between us The bitch was transfered back to breeders affix for puppies tehn in to my sole ownership after For me thta worked well.
Later went into partnership with friend whom paid no money  for bitch pup We both paid for food vacs etc I was going to pay stud fee litter would be in my name I was to have 2/3rds litter friend would have other 1/3rd the bitch transfer over to friend Then friend phones and tells me  cant cope and has made arrangements to take bitch in to rescue  and they on way to rescue place  as felt unable to tell me face to face Subsequently I lost  pup   also  lost that particular line . Tried to get her back from rescue to no avail as not registered in my name.
I currently have a boy in joint ownership All his monetary requirements and his looking after are down to me  As he lives here his stud fees would be paid to me only  co owner would  sign form no quibble   Reason for co ownership as he is last son of her beloved boy whom died of cancer.
As with all things sometimes they work other times they dont  I feel it is a decision only you can make and hope that all goes well

Hi Inka,

The reason we are keen to co-own is as you say for control..... as awful as it sounds.  My breed is rare; registrations are around 80 puppies a year and COI's are VERY high in the show ring (most over 20 and quite a lot in the mid 30's).  Line breeding is a real problem for us and this was a mating I was very excited about - a chance to put some very interesting and healthy lines together.  I was hoping for a special bitch who may be able to contribute to the gene pool but unfortunately it wasn't to be. 

We can't keep a male as we can't guarantee keeping them seperate and the thought of a mother to son or half sibling mating would be horrific.  So we bred this litter with future generations in mind and we still want that to be the case - I was looking for someone I could give the dog to but I would be able to show it (or they could), I could pay for health testing and the dog would be able to be used at stud (all being well).  The irony  is I probably wouldn't ever use the dog on one of my girls as I try and stay away from close matings!

I completely agree with what Inka has said - to a dog the owner is the person who loves, feeds and lives with the dog and not the person on a piece of paper.  Of course I understand that :)

Maybe selling to a trustworthy and like minded exhibitor would be just as good as co-owning?

I don't know the in's and out's I guess I'm just thinking from a buyer's perspective...I don't think I'd like to buy and live with my dog, and get as attached to him, as I would with the risk of co-ownership problems every coming between us! :( :)

I don't know the law in Ireland, but in the UK, even if a person just co-owns, as long as they have the dog living with them, feed it, train it, pay the vet bills etc, that person has a MUCH stronger claim to ownership so it's unlikely the person who has the dog with them would ever lose it.

I have to say I have only had positive experiences myself -one dog one bitch co-owned (the dog is an import) and in the past a bitch on breeding terms (now signed over to me) -but then the two people in question I REALLY trust and count as close friends indeed.

The claim to ownership is pretty much the same in most places, I believe. Even if someone else is listed as being a co-owner, if you're the one paying the bills for the dog, the dog is legally considered to be yours. That being said, regardless of how close you might be with the person you do co-own with, make sure you have a contract for the dog explaining exactly who is responsible for what. There's nothing worse than friendships being ruined because both parties had different interpretations of the terms of a spoken contract.

I have co-owned 4 dogs over the last 10 years. Three lived with me, the other one lived with someone else. The terms were always that the person whom the dog lived with was the one who payed the bills, but that in the event of something serious (ie. the dog requiring a major, expensive surgery) the co-owner could provide some financial support. Fortunately, we never have had to go through anything like that, but there was always a contract in place regardless of the reason for the co-ownership or my relationship with the co-owners.