..Most of us have to work, like it or not, so how do most breeders organise their lives to take enough time off to help whelp and then raise a litter? It took a lot of organisation on my part to organise my work pattern for just one pup coming home! :)

I work but just part time. In my job (NHS) I do get lots of annual leave (9 weeks a year, that includes BH as we treat every day the same and BH's are worked the same as the rest.) but I also have the luxury of being only contracted to 15 hours a week with loads of extra shifts available if I want to take them. My usuall shift pattern is 2 x 2.30 - 10pm shifts a week but most weeks I do 3. giving me 22 1/2 hrs per week. I am lucky that I am quite well paid, enough to be the equivilent of a 37 1/2 job in a supermarket etc.. if you take unsocialble hours rates into the equasion. OH is home by 5.30pm most nights so the girls are only left for max 3 days  2pm till 5.30pm. they are fine with that, they get 2 good walks before I go and OH road walks them (Speed walks) for 20 mins when he gets in. If I have pups I change my shifts to 3 x 5 - 10pm shifts and OH makes sure he is home before 5pm so we can swop over.(5 min trip to work) On the odd occasion that a 5-10 is not available I have a dog sitter who covers 2 - 5 pm and to her utmost amazement gets paid for the privalage of puppy cuddling! I also request my A/L to coenside with the last 2/3 weeks the pups are here (Any pup I keep soon settles into the adult runtein with Mum and Granny to keep them company) and as soon as I know when they are due I put in for whatever odd days A/L I can get to cut down on shifts, If I can get a few odd days in for the first 3 weeks it cuts my shifts down to one a week. (my line manager is very accomodating if it is possible)
It is a hard and demanding job and I take plenty of abuse/flack and rudeness (Receptionist in the ED department, last night we had someone running round the department with a hammer threatening staff!! no one hurt...) I work odd hours and do all nighters quite often (And die the next day through lack of sleep, the girls do not understand sleep in the daytime :-( ) but the ability to be so flexiblle and the good rate of pay and 15 years of NHS pension scheme under my belt keep me there and will do so for the next 7 years untill I can retire....and that day cannot come soon enough!
Aileen

To be honest I don't personally know any breeder that goes out to work -that's what we have husbands for. :) Others combine it with running boarding kennels or similar so they work with dogs from home.

Aileen, good on you! I work in a similar position actually with similar entitlements so I guess I can see how that would work too. Not that I'm remotely thinking of breeding, but I was wondering as it is such an expensive thing to do that I couldn't see how people managed to do it PROPERLY without an income.

I have to agree unless you can juggle which above seems to do very well. Im at home with dogs and child (child goes to nursery 1-5.30) so i can de-stress clean house and take dogs for a good long walk in the countryside. OH gets home from work half 6 and if its been too hot a day like recently i take dogs out after 8 oclock. When i did work, i was made to feel incredibly guilty for taking this time off i needed to look after a litter which has only been the 1! or the afternoons off to go to matings etc. Even though it was mentioned in any interviews before i got the job. We could probably do with me going to work PT but with the way things are ''dear employer can i have a job from 1.30-5 a few days a week/1 weekend day and maybe take 8 weeks off here and there, and maybe not do some weekends for dogs shows'' Cloud cuckoo if i do, so I am hoping to work round the dogs, small bits here and there microchipping hoping to give me abit of pocket money. Entrepreneuring...

I always get a showprint diary and by Nov can put every show day for the following year in the request book so get all my Champ show days pre-booked off. :-) Believe me I know just how lucky I am!!
Aileen

Me too in fairness, essentially I work alone, though in an office so if i'm not in, no one else's work suffers so I can take off any day I need to with very minimal notice - which can be tough when you're trying to save your annual leave ;)

One of my single friends is self employed in Garden maintenance and basically has no earnings while she has a litter under 4 weeks, and then goes out for the odd hour or two at most for quick jobs (lawns etc).  So she has only just bred her second litter, as it is so expensive.

It is one reason that registration numbers are falling in responsibly bred litters which often teh rare breeds are the majority, so they get ever rarer (unless it's the lates fashionable rare thign that isn't rare at all).

Even when we can attract people into deeper interest in the breeds to show (or in other breeds work) their dogs to breed is beyond the means or ability to offer the long term commitment for many.

Other good breeders are retired, or have to arrange cover from family and friends, often paid for in some way, if not actual pay then services in kind.

It's certainly something to consider for the FAR away future anyway. I'll keep reading my genetics books for now LOL ;)

Luckily my OH's employers allow unpaid leave. So we saved for a couple of years for any expenses a litter could incur anyway, PLUS money towards living expenses for 3 months. I work full time, and have only had the odd afternoon off to go to the matings, and also took a few holiday days off when the pups were born, so both myself & my OH were there. Once the pups were about 1 week I went back to work, and my OH has stayed at home looking after them and running the household, which I have to say is quite nice going back to a cooked meal in the evenings!

We had decided years ago, we would love a litter of pups at some point, but ONLY when one of us was able to be there round the clock, as i say it took a couple of years to save enough money to allow for everything, and believe me these pups have not gone without anything!!

I have been told by several breeders in my breed that I could just have the first couple of weeks off, then go back to work, and check them at lunchtime! but I just couldn' do that, i certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if anything had happened to mum or the babies

Luckily I have parents nearby to help out and plus I have a job and work colleagues where I can take the time off.  Also have a breed that in the large majority are fantastic mothers.

If it wasn't for me who has always worked full time the likelyhood of the breed being in existence here would be fairly low, although of course nowadays there are quite a few breeders.

When we had our one and only litter so far, my husband worked full time, I worked part time, and we juggled who coule take what time off as holiday etc. For the days we couldn't cover we had a friend stay here and she did the nights, we paid her, as she was self emploiyed and it covered her loss of earnings. I had a colour coded chart for 8 weeks to show who was 'on duty', it was planned like a military operation.

No we didn't make any money out of the litter, but that wasn't why we did it.

I realise I am extremely fortunate. I am self employed with staff so I just say, right I have pups at the moment so I am sure you can cope without me...and they do :)

I wasn't working (husband was) when I had litters. If I wanted to have a litter now I'd probably have to take all my year's holiday at once and some unpaid leave as well.

In our last litter I didn't work at all, stayed home the entire time with them and the dam and then started working again. Now I work part time and my mum takes her holiday leave a couple of times a week for our next litter so there'll always be someone home with them. I make sure to take off time around two weeks before the birth too; my girl needs all the attention she can get. What I found really crippling was getting up three times a night to let my bitch out after the litter was born and on their feet for about two months because she couldn't hold herself.

I have been lucky that each time I had a litter I have been off work for one reason or another plus my Mum lives round the corner so is supportive, my shopping is delivered to the door so no need to go out in those early weeks.

My " dog fund" has been spent on other things since my recent enforced early retirement so will need to think hard and build up a back up fund before my next litter, I have been offered free stud services by several breeders with compatible very nice examples of the breed who have proved themselves in the ring, the equipment I already have, it is medical intervention that I need the money there for, I need something to plan and look forward to but wont do it and then worry about finding money if needs be in an emergency.

Those of us serious about breeding find a way to cope which doesn't affect the dogs badly, having worked nights for 28 yrs the disturbed sleep I take in my stride.

My body needs to be able to cope too at present with the extra work but the joy I feel far out weighs the hardships, my small number small breed is also managable that a large breed large number litter would be beyond me.

It is these sorts of discussions that really open my eyes (as a none breeder) to how much dedication they require. The amount of people that breed a litter without a second thought, and sods law it is never them that has any problems!

I would absolutely love to raise a litter in the future, but I am talking in 20 years time, if ever!!

Well, I do like Marianne's idea, about staying home and having a husband as the breadwinner, but I live alone.  Now I really would like to stay home, but the magic fairy won't pay the mortgage, stingy sod! 

I am not planning a litter this year at all, so it's not as if I need loads of leave all in one go as a regular thing.  But I do work long hours, and there isn't a way round that, as they all have to be fed, vaccinated etc., and I would never breed without a minimum £1,000 put by for an out of hours section, because sure as eggs is eggs, it will be after midnight if a vet is needed!

I do have a dog sitter during the day anyway, as it would be totally out of the question for them to be left with no human contact for so long.  And, I too, have good holidays, as I work for the government.  If I book 3 weeks holiday, I am happy to leave care to my dog sitter once pups are on their feet.  I just could never let anyone else whelp a bitch for me. 

My main problem (well employers problem with me :-) )is timing!  I have a breed which often has an 8 week gestation, so I have to guesstimate my leave.)  Then, when the time comes, I end up phoning the boss mid week.  Conversation along the lines of - "you know I am supposed to start my leave next Monday?  Please can I start it 5 days early, as the pups have arrived."

I am sure that they find it a nuisance.  But I don't do it half a dozen times a year, and I often change my hours to suit them when needed, so fair is fair.

I would give anything to stay home with the gang, but it isn't feasible.  But I do give them all my attention evenings and weekends, and sometimes life has to be a compromise.

I'm self employed and work form home.  However in the first 3 weeks I have to put all work to one side and just concentrate on the pups, from about 3 weeks i can do some work to put stuff into stock, but can't actually go out and sell it till the pups are weaned.

Thanks for everyone's insights, this has been a really interesting topic! :) One thing I do wonder about, though, is the way most people say 'a good breeder can't make money from a litter'. Well, i'm thinking of one breeder I know through the show world who is reputable and well known in his breed. Even if he kept 2,000 pounds aside for emergency vet bills and pays for all the equipment (i don't know what's even needied but guesstimating 1,000 pounds?), if he had a large litter with 9 pups who sell for around the 1000 mark, he would still stand to make 4 thousand from the litter, if we take another 2,000 out for feeding/general/vet/testing/stud expenses. Less if keeping a pup which we presume a good breeder will be doing. I guess I'm wondering as we've heard the phrase that a good breeder makes no gain from their puppies, that if a breeder DOES make a gain, are they doing something wrong? Should a buyer be wary? Obviously you'll never know the reality of the output and input but even so, these are just things I am interested in learning as a relative newbie. :-/

> 'a good breeder can't make money from a litter'

It's not something I would ever say because the factors involved are so variable.  Do you count all the money involved in keeping all the dogs that you will not breed from or past their breeding age?  Or would you say you would be keeping dogs for pets anyway?  Do you count the cost of showing or would you say I would be doing that anyway because I enjoy it?
I think the only relevent point is whether the purpose of litter and the way they are bred and reared was ethical rather than merely to make money.  If they end up in pocket, well good luck to them I say :)

if he had a large litter with 9 pups who sell for around the 1000 mark, he would still stand to make 4 thousand from the litter,

So much depends on being ABLE to sell, and for full price too. Some breeds decline drastically in value the older they get and we don't always find buyers easily -even when we have waiting lists. In my last large breed litter I had 9 pups. I was paid for just 3. (I had 12 people on my waiting list, 11 dropped out.) The stud dog owner and I have 5 of these pups (now adult) between us. One was donated. You do what you can to find good homes and personally if a friend wants a pup, I'd never charge full price. Some go on breeding terms or are co-owned and no money charged therefore. And many breeds are nowhere near £1000, mine for instance would be around £650. So yes, sometimes there could be a profit -but it would rely on a great deal of luck.

I think, taking out the money required for existing dogs etc and just looking at the litter itself, it would be possible to make a profit. If and heres the thing, if the bitch had an easy whelping and did not require the intervention of a vet. If the mother had plentiful milk to feed her pups and the whole litter didn't have to be reared on tins and tins of expensive whelpi. If during their 8 weeks with their mother, none of the pups needed the vet. If they were all robust feeders and easy weaners. If all went to new homes at the agreed price. If the mother recovered without  the threat of mastitis or eclampsia. Then you can make a profit.

But thats enough of fairy land, in reality, something always goes wrong, well for me at least lol. Just one trip to an out of hours vet can whip the lot away in the blink of an eye. My last litter, I made a loss. I had more money before than after for sure but I had the pup I wanted so it was worth it. But you do have to be prepared not only to make no  profit but to actually lose money as well.

My breed certainly seems to be at the expensive end of the spectrum and from what I've seen, waiting lists fill up quickly and people don't seem to drop off. Of course we have far less litters to choose from and most, if not nearly everyone, i know with one of them has had to travel to a different country for at least one, if not more, of their dogs!

The breeder also has the breeding line to maintain where someone who doesn't breed simply buys in a dog as and when they feel like.

The majority of good breeders will have more pensioners than current youngsters being show/worked or bred from.

If they only wanted to keep a dog for companionship they would not keep as many.

Then you have the costs of showing/working the dogs which is what is proving them and making them successful.  If you excluded show costs under hobby, then there is still the care of dogs at home to finance.

Then there is the general wear and tear and higher upkeep keeping a line of dogs, from kennelling facilities to equipment, dog sitters, and help as mentioned.

I know that I have to sell 4 puppies of my breed (average price £650) just to cover basic costs of the litter, excluding any vet expenses, (other than parental health testing, overseas travel, heating wear and tear, etc.   I have averaged just under 6 pups per litter over the years.

Then from this two pup profit I might just be able to pay for showing two dogs at 8 shows in entries and fuel.  As long as it doesn't involve more than a 250 mile round trip and no overnight stays.

In the meantime my dogs still have to be fed and provided for, taken to the vet (can't afford to Insure that may especially the older ones which is when they are likely to need treatment).

looked at more simply the current maximum number of litters a bitch is allowed under KC rules is 4, and most decent people would not even breed that many litters in breeds that have larger litters.  So with an average breed that is 24 pups maximum.  Bearing in mind that statistics maintain it costs £1000 a year to keep a dog at average 12 years that's £12000, so if the rearing costs is half the puppy price (it is for me on average) then there is no profit.

> My breed certainly seems to be at the expensive end of the spectrum

They also are not bred very often because they are not easy to sell when there are so many ex-racers to be had and found homes for.  Breeders of the large sight hounds generally breed every few years once they have a waiting list. 

I suspect that bitches have no more than a litter or two.  they are often kept for extended lengths of time if homes fall through, and often the breeder ends up with more than one to keep.

when i had my litter i decided that i did not want to miss out on a single moment...so i handed in my notice. my boss said she would give me 'maternity leave'! so that is what happened!