>I no longer wanted a pup from that breeder then as I was concerned that that 'in-out-asap' mentality meant they were breeding more for financial gain, and would happily lose out on a good home in order to get it :-/

A very good point.

...and of course then I found 'my' breeder who said that it would be no problem at all to keep the pup and she could get the puppy socialised and used to so many new things in preparation for coming to me at 4 months.... her biggest worry was then that she would miss him so much! Now, that's a breeder I like.

So you are saying if you had an unsold pup at 8 weeks old you would have no time or inclination to continue to work with this pup because you would not be the one benefitting in the end.

No way would I let a pup go at 7/8 weeks, the youngest I have brought home a new pup is 9 weeks old.

I stand by the feed back I have had in the past from new puppy owners, the pups have been ready from day 1 to be taken out into the wide world and have not been scared of anything they encountered, one new owner walked her new pup up to the local junior school to collect her grandson the day after she was collected from me[from 7 weeks old I take the pups up to a bench near a local school at chucking out time and slowly introduce them, sitting on my lap so as to prevent risk of infection, this was done at least twice a week till they went to their new homes] the kids came up to greet her and the grandson stated he liked this pup the best out of all the pups he had met over the years bred by the new owner, he told me the same when I met him at a show 18 months later and asked him how she was, I told him she had come from me and he wanted to know did I have any more.

None of my pups have gone to be only dogs and having been allowed supervised access to all my adults from 4 weeks old have settled in well with their new companions.

I put alot of time and effort into my pups and nothing is too much trouble, I live alone so it is all down to me, I get alot out of it too.

My breed is only small, litters have been 3/4 pups so not numbers in double figures therefore easier to manage but having decided to breed I wanted to do it right from the outset, 7 yrs from deciding I would like to show/breed till the arrival of my first litter, those pups hopefully will live till they are 15+yrs old so deserve the best start I can give them as do their new owners.

There doesn't seem to have been any comments recently from the OP which regularly happens on here unfortunately, I'd be interested to know if their thinking has changed since reading opinions from others, majority in favour of keeping the pup for longer.

Research shows that the optimal time for puppies to be placed in their new homes is actually under 8wks (7wks is ideal) - behavioural problems occur far less frequently in puppies which go to their new homes at this time, than puppies which are kept by breeders.

Excuse me for not having time to write a long reply, but I am off to dog club to take the GC Silver test with my Cavalier that I acquired aged 6 Months!  AND my Malinois bitch is going for her bronze tonight, she came to me at 14 months! Full of behaviour problems both, clearly........ ;)

Yep ditto the dog we brought through Quarantine at 9 weeks so he did not get to see the wider world and very few people until 9 months of age.

First show 3 days later, showed well and was bomb proof.

Two pups exported by me to Australia having to undergo a month quarantine over there, socialised entirely by me the breeder until they left here at 14 1/2 and 12 1/2 weeks respectively (slight changed in regulations over a 10 year period), bounced out at around the 18 - 20 weeks, very confident and raring to go.

I have also often had pups longer for holiday commitments too, and all settled easily and bold as brass.

The only pup of mine that was ever less than outgoing went at 7 1/2 weeks locally to someone who already owned the breed.  Unfortunately their now elderly bitch was noise phobic, but they didn't really pick up all the stress/fear signals she exhibited and of course the pup picked up on, as was socialised with her companion in two.

I had to spend several weeks undoing this by going round and taking them out separately and together with and without my lot.  Unfortunately the owners were not a gregarious pair,a and preferred to be very quiet and keep to themselves.

What isn't taken into account (as it can't as the researchers would not have access to the info) is the very large and critical influence that heredity has on temperament and mental characteristics. 

Also the dogs studied will have come from a varied number of sources from excellent knowledgeable and conscientious breeders,  well meaning amateurs breeding from a Pet (may have knowledge may not) Financially motivated Back yard breeders, to Puppy Farmers.

Statistically few are going to come from the best breeders or even halfway knowledgeable ones, as these breed the least number of dogs.

Recent information from the Dogs Trust I think, confirm that in a survey of owners most pups did not come from the best sources, this is even more so in the USA where pups are commonly purchased from the Mal, and the culture of daily walks for dogs does not seem to be universal, with many only going off property occasionally.

Rabid, thankyou thankyou thankyou.
I told myself that I wasn't going to prolong this thread any longer than it is by responding  as it's made me feel rubbish!
Not for one minute did I ever say that I couldnt keep the pup longer because my job was done at 8 weeks, I thought myself a good breeder, someone that was trying my hardest to do everything right for my pups but at times I feel that instead of my original question being answered I was called a terrible breeder and I couldn't wait to grab the money and wash my hands of the pups.
I've even had my Assured breeder status ridiculed, I'm proud of MYSELF because of what I do not what the KC does.
I've tried very hard to not retaliate because I've read other posts that when you try to defend yourself you are then told off for not taking advice when asked for, you can't win!!!
another older post I've read about letting pups go no later than 8 weeks has some of the same "haters" on here advocating this!!
So I would just like to state again, I'm not a puppy farmer, I adore my dogs, I adore my puppies, I most definitely would  keep a pup for a week longer not 3 weeks though, no expense it's spared at all in rearing the pups, and my older dogs would not harm a pup intentionally, they are very well socialised  but big and clumsy.
Thankyou Rabid for someone "sticking up" for me..... at last!
And everybody else, be nicer!

Just tagging on the end here. One of the things I dislike is a reliance on blanket rules to cover all situations. It's no use giving a newcomer a hard time just because she didn't do what some of you folks do. I guess she did what she thought was best at the time. Then she got to thinking things over, as you do, and put up this topic for discussion.

For what it's worth, we have different strategies for our two different breeds. I am happy to let the large breed go at 8 weeks, or just before because they are usually from large litters and will be best served by being socialised in their new setting - in my opinion. As for our Toy breed, well the breed clubs concerned positively frown upon puppies being homed before 10 weeks, and preferably 12 weeks. In fact it's in the clubs ethics. But then they rarely have more than 4 pups and often fewer so it's easier to take them around to socialise them.

To the OP - don't feel bad. I'm sure you did what you thought was right. This board, like society, will have a range of people on it. Some will have good advice and others will come across as judgemental and critical. Try to take what positives you can from it.

Good luck with your dogs!

> And everybody else, be nicer!

I didn't read any posts from people who weren't 'nice' - they just didn't agree with you :)

Don't forget that you asked what people thought - and, based on the information you gave, you got plenty of replies.  I'd call that a good result.  It's a very interesting topic, useful for anyone thinking of buying a puppy and needing to know what they might be asked, or wanting to understand what sort of options different breeders can provide in similar circumstances, and for someone perhaps breeding for the first time a chance to consider what their response might be if a potential owner advises they have holiday booked.

Esme - Yes, don't get me started on my other soapbox topic or you'll never shut me up; the keeping of toy breeds longer than 8wks, under the (wrong) belief that just because they are small, they are somehow psychologically less mature than large breeds.  The number of toy dogs I've had through class - from supposedly reputable breeders, who advertise on Champdogs - and are nervous wrecks, going on to develop 'yappy-small-dog-syndrome' (ie fear aggression), is MANY.  Why?  Well, the one differentiating thing between them and other so-called less reputable breeders (ie people having a one-off litter from their pet toy dog) is the age those pups come to class at.

Dawn, I think you did the right thing and you were brave to do it as well.  So strongly do I feel that pups need one to one attention at that age, that if I really didn't want to lose a buyer, I'd ask a family member or friend to 'puppy sit' (ie socialise pup) for 3 wks during this period; it would go to their home and be adopted by them for a few weeks.

As for my qualifications and the person who slated those, I would have thought that since you don't rate qualifications for anything, you would instead rate experience.  In which case, I've worked with literally hundreds and hundreds of dogs and puppies over many years, and watched their social development from 8wks to adults - many different breeds.  Every week, I am closely supervising puppy play between many different personalities of pups and ensuring all have a positive experience at their own pace.  I'm aware of the breeders who breed the puppies at my class (since owners provide affixes and names of breeders on their application forms) and I know exactly what age each puppy came home.  What I say is based on experience of hundreds and hundreds of puppies, over many, many years.  Not a couple of dogs I happened to put in quarantine at age 9wks, nor my own 2 dogs I 'adopted' at 16wks, nor the dog I had when I was age 12 and we got it at 18 wks - but hundreds of puppies.   

But I think I've put across my point of view here, and I hope that if someone googles this subject and this thread comes up, what I've said will at least have some impact on them - I for sure am not saying it with any hope of changing the minds of most breeders on here.

It seems very difficult for some breeders to accept that they occasionally must find themselves in the position of doing something which is not in the best interests of a puppy.  (Ie having to keep it beyond 8wks.)  Unfortunately life is not predictable and the waiting list they had, doesn't materialise.  The great homes they banked on, fell through.  It happens.  It's not great.  AND, here's the complex part, if they accepted that it's not in the best interests of the puppy to stay with them, they might be left feeling guilty.  They might start to blame themselves for breeding more puppies than they could home (even if, after all, it wasn't their fault because they had lots of good homes lined up before the mating).  Instead of feeling all those horrible feelings, it is far easier to do away with the conflict by telling themself, and others, that there's nothing wrong with doing this because they can provide a puppy with everything it needs.  Perfect solution!  They don't need to feel bad about it; puppy gets what (they think) it needs and all is ok.  No one need feel anything bad, no one need blame themself for breeding puppies which proved to be hard to home by 8wks, no one need worry about being irresponsible and there are no nasty feelings anywhere.

Only - harm is done.  Because the more this gets put around and the more who believe it, the more traumatised older puppies I (and other trainers) are going to be seeing, and the more pieces for the owners to pick up.  YES - not ALL puppies who are kept on, go on to develop behaviour problems (as many of you have pointed out, going by your own dogs), but statistically MANY MORE do.  And unfortunately that's what 'best practice' is about - in any profession - statistics and the guidelines that evolve from them.  In dog breeding as in any other walk of life.

>Unfortunately life is not predictable and the waiting list they had, doesn't materialise.  The great homes they banked on, fell through.  It happens.  It's not great.  AND, here's the complex part, if they accepted that it's not in the best interests of the puppy to stay with them, they might be left feeling guilty.  They might start to blame themselves for breeding more puppies than they could home (even if, after all, it wasn't their fault because they had lots of good homes lined up before the mating).  Instead of feeling all those horrible feelings, it is far easier to do away with the conflict by telling themself, and others, that there's nothing wrong with doing this because they can provide a puppy with everything it needs.

Why on earth should anyone feel guilty when careful plans go wrong through no fault of theirs? They've done nothing wrong so have no need to blame themselves. As you say, people drop off waiting lists for many reasons. And as waiting lists are best started before a mating even takes place there's plenty of time for those people's circumstances to change.

>So strongly do I feel that pups need one to one attention at that age, that if I really didn't want to lose a buyer, I'd ask a family member or friend to 'puppy sit' (ie socialise pup) for 3 wks during this period; it would go to their home and be adopted by them for a few weeks.

That would surely have been a far better option for Dawn to choose rather than turn down an excellent home.

If only human guilt were dependent on someone really being to blame.  Of course people feel guilty all the time for things which are not really their fault. 

It's pointless and irrational though, so should be discouraged at every opportunity.

To Rabid- you go girl!!

To jeangenie- with reply to:That would surely have been a far better option for Dawn to choose rather than turn down an excellent home.
The buyer passed my INITIAL criteria ie: someone home all day, fenced garden, energy levels, has had this breed before etc etc etc,  when I told her she might be more suited to a later litter for when she's ready, SHE told me the puppy would be losing an excellent home, I hadn't decided whether it was an excellent home, my friend has a pet dog the same breed as me, she would tell you it has an excellent home, they love it and take great care of it but it only has a walk down the local shop on a lead every morning, it's about ten minutes away, in my opinion that's not an excellent home , it's a good home but not excellent. So it's all a matter of standards.

I'm willing to miss out on what the buyer thinks is an " excellent" home to make sure my babies really are getting a fantastic home.

Another buyer told me she wasn't having a holiday this year, their new puppy was their "holiday" she cant wait to pick her pup up, why would you want to miss out.

Thanks everyone for your opinions and thoughts but this could go on forever back and forth, pros and cons, its been interesting though.

Rabid, you are the one that call yourself an expert based on your knowledge and experience. Sorry if you feel like I "slated" your qualifications, but I am not a fan of the "critical periods" theory, specially the way it gets passed around like it's Dogma.

I have read the original studies and find them quite flawed from a scientific point of view. If you want to discuss this, and maybe have your points of view challanged, I will be happy to provide you the literature.

Coming in a bit late from this debate. As someone who has bought a puppy in the last twelve months, I thought I'd add my opinion into the debate.

I was working at Disney World for three months this summer. Once I got back I planned on buying a puppy. As you all know, my research started at least 6 months before the potential litter would even be due. I researched breeder after breeder, deciding on what feeding practices I would ideally like them to have started, what sort of home (show/working or a mix) I wanted that puppy from, what sort of coat I wanted my puppy to have.

I visited one breeder who was absolutely ideal. I found them through champ dogs, phoned them and arranged a visit shortly after the mating had taken place. The breeders themselves were excellent and I really loved talking about their history with the breed etc etc. Their dogs were lovely and had the exact temperament we were looking for.

Once we got home from visiting, as a family we decided that perhaps the actual dogs themselves weren't what we were looking for. The male was on the larger side and we found that the personality of the Mum wasn't quite as outgoing as we liked (She was by no means under socialised, she just liked her own space and whilst we respect that, we like our dogs to have a bit more personality than this particular bitch did.) We spoke to the breeder and they recommended a few other breeders that they thought we might like.

Through a mixture of bad planning and unexpected circumstances, I didn't get to meet any other breeders as I started my job at Disney. My Mum & Sister found a breeder that they visited. I spoke to her briefly through email but didn't actually meet her until I came to collect the puppy (On the proviso that she was happy with me and I was happy with her, of course.)

The breeder kept the puppy for me for an extra week (He was 9 weeks when I got him) but he had been getting all the socialisation that the puppy her sister was keeping to show and she had treated him as one of her own. She was a responsible breeder that had waiting lists but for one reason or another they had all fallen through.

For me, it showed that my black-and-white ideas on a good breeder were not true, and the breeder's black-and-white ideas on a good buyer are not necessarily true. Many breeders didn't want to even consider me as I had worked abroad for the summer and felt I might do it again next summer and leave the puppy, some people saw the fact that I was a student as a bad thing, and others just simply refused to hold a puppy for even a week or two.

>Esme - Yes, don't get me started on my other soapbox topic or you'll never shut me up; the keeping of toy breeds longer than 8wks, under the (wrong) belief that just because they are small, they are somehow psychologically less mature than large breeds.  The number of toy dogs I've had through class - from supposedly reputable breeders, who advertise on Champdogs - and are nervous wrecks, going on to develop 'yappy-small-dog-syndrome' (ie fear aggression), is MANY.  Why?  Well, the one differentiating thing between them and other so-called less reputable breeders (ie people having a one-off litter from their pet toy dog) is the age those pups come to class at.

I don't keep my toy breed until 10 weeks because I believe they are psychologically less mature than large breeds, I keep them because a toy breed puppy is smaller and more vulnerable to (for example) rough play from children, or just some freak accident in the home. :-)

A cavalier should be fine to leave the breeder between 8 and 10 weeks... they are the largest of the toys after all. But again, it all comes down to individual litters/puppies. I had a litter whom were still being spoon fed by me at 6 weeks old, they really did only want their Mums milk (not unusual in the breed!).. so, they benefited from staying a little longer than a litter bred the following year, that was heartily eating their puppy food independently at 5 weeks!
If we are talking one of the much smaller toy breeds eg. a chihuahua, then absolutely, they would be nowhere near ready for their new homes at 8 weeks and I believe 12 weeks is in fact the norm.

If we are talking one of the much smaller toy breeds eg. a chihuahua, then absolutely, they would be nowhere near ready for their new homes at 8 weeks and I believe 12 weeks is in fact the norm.

Indeed. I compare small toys to kittens hence they should stay for 12-13 weeks at least. They do NOT mature at the same rate as larger breeds. For instance they may well take an extra couple of weeks before they start eating solid food and they often suckle their dams for longer. I had my first Papillon puppy at 7 weeks as I didn't know better then and it turned out to be a bad breeder, and it was nothing short of cruel. Now HE has far more behavioural problems than the Papillons I got later at a minimum of 14 weeks. At 7 weeks he was not at all ready to go, and he was so small and vulnerable.

> I had a litter whom were still being spoon fed by me at 6 weeks old, they really did only want their Mums milk (not unusual in the breed!).. so, they benefited from staying a little longer than a litter bred the following year, that was heartily eating their puppy food independently at 5 weeks!

Exactly, blanket rules don't always fit all situations. And there are often differences between breeds (and bitches). I have been able to start to wean my large breed litters from 3 weeks, even 2 1/2 weeks on one occasion. But my one and only experience of a Toy litter (so far) was pretty different. They weren't all that keen before about 5 weeks and the bitch was still letting them feed up till 12 weeks! So I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't have wanted to home them before then.

The buyer passed my INITIAL criteria ie: someone home all day, fenced garden, energy levels, has had this breed before etc etc etc,  when I told her she might be more suited to a later litter for when she's ready, SHE told me the puppy would be losing an excellent home, I hadn't decided whether it was an excellent home..

But if you decided that 3 weeks was too long, even before you had fully vetted the home, it seems clear that not having the pup for a further 3 weeks was your priority? It MAY have been an excellent home, you just didn't assess it fully.

Apologies if I have misunderstood.

>The number of toy dogs I've had through class - from supposedly reputable breeders, who advertise on Champdogs - and are nervous wrecks, going on to develop 'yappy-small-dog-syndrome' (ie fear aggression), is MANY.  Why?  Well, the one differentiating thing between them and other so-called less reputable breeders (ie people having a one-off litter from their pet toy dog) is the age those pups come to class at.

Or the way the owners have treated them - by giving them too much one-to-one attention and over-indulging and spoiling them, perhaps?

The number of toy dogs I've had through class - from supposedly reputable breeders, who advertise on Champdogs - and are nervous wrecks, going on to develop 'yappy-small-dog-syndrome' (ie fear aggression), is MANY.  Why?  Well, the one differentiating thing between them and other so-called less reputable breeders (ie people having a one-off litter from their pet toy dog) is the age those pups come to class at.

If you dug deeper you'd find they came from breeders who cage 24/7 which a LOT LOT LOT of toy breeders do including some at the very top. They don't work with the pups or socialise them, ESPECIALLY not with larger dogs (try taking a big dog close to a toy ring at a show and you will be asked to move as your big dog could potentially kill the dogs in the ring, or at best put them off showing -no wonder their pups are scared of big dogs when not even the parents get to experience them!), and it is not at all uncommon for such people to bring a pup out for the very first time at 6 months of age to a show -which then will be the pup's first time away from home and first time on a lead even. Yes it happens quite a lot! All you need to do is sit around a toyring and watch the puppy classes and you can spot the pups a mile off that have been socialised. It does NOT mean those were sold before 12 weeks of age, it just means they were worked with! When I sell a toy pup it will have been out and about, will be lead trained, used to big dogs and cats etc and will generally be totally fearless. Sadly far from everyone will do this. THEN you have the issue of genetics -nervous will breed nervous! Like I said not long ago, my one Papillon that I got as early as 7 weeks is the only one who has issues -and he was out and about form day one.

Then let's not forget that if small toy pups are not fed frequently enough they could even die from low blood sugar -and not a lot of people realise this and think that missing the odd meal will be fine. Just one other reason for why we CANNOT be cruel enough to sell them at the same age as a larger breed. A  small toy being sold at 7 weeks would equal a larger breed being sold at 3 weeks.

Not only what Jeangenie just said, but Rabid's system of beliefs and prejudice towards puppies that leave their breeders later than at 7/8 weeks can actually be impairing her own ability to work with these dogs, and influencing them to become what she expects them to.