Hi all, I thought I would ask, do you all honour any holidays booked by the new owner when picking up their new puppy?
I've been breeding now for 4 years, I'm only a hobby breeder, but also a KC assured breeder, which I take great pride in as I like to think I do all I can to continually meet the criteria. My dogs are all health checked and have all relevant health tests and I only breed when I want something nice to show myself not just to make a few quid!
My question has come about because I've always said that when I have a litter in the summer months I would hold on to the pup for a bit longer if necessary (it's not about getting shot of pups as soon as I can, I adore my puppies and hate it when they go) but in saying this really I'm thinking about a cross over of about a week. I've turned down a lady this weekend as she wants me to hold on to the puppy for an extra 3 weeks, it's not a great hardship for me to keep a baby, but when I pointed out that the puppy goes through a crucial learning process between 7 and 16 weeks of age and she will be missing most of this and maybe she will be better off looking at later litters that will be ready to go when she 's ready for her puppy she got really offended telling me she's had 16 years of experience owning this breed and the pup would've had a great home with her.
I didn't doubt her experience otherwise she wouldn't of got past the vetting stage with me and moved on to booking a viewing. Am I being unreasonable not to want to hold the puppy for another 3 weeks because of this stage of development, I want the puppies to have the best start in life and going to their new forever families at the right time is so important I think.
Why is it that people go through weeks worth of email back and forth, building a relationship only to then mention a holiday or something else, why dont they look at the puppies date of birth and work out roughly when they will be ready before getting in touch?
It's been a lesson learnt by me now, I will definitely be asking about holidays etc. as one of my first questions, in fact I'm writing a list now of questions just to prompt me when emailing, I thought I'd covered everything.
My last 2 litters people rang me this time everyone seems to want to email me, you lose the personal touch, and you can tell alot by someone over the phone rather than an email.
Anyway I leave it there, what do you all think?

If you're happy with the home I don't see a problem. You can get the vaccinations done and a good start on the training and socialisation, just as if you were keeping the puppy, so when the purchaser's back from holiday there's no development time lost.

>when I pointed out that the puppy goes through a crucial learning process between 7 and 16 weeks of age and she will be missing most of this

Why would the puppy be missing this? You'd be doing it instead of the purchaser. I wouldn't turn down a good home just for that. You might not get such a good one in the same timescale anyway. You might just have shot yourself in the foot.

I would -and have done -keep for an extra 3 weeks. All it means is I myself have to start lead training, taking an extra puppy out and about etc. I wouldn't turn down a good experienced home under those circumstances.

I am making an assumption here but if the pup would be 7 weeks when going to new family it would stillonly be around 10 weeks old. Maybe things have moved on and we have learned more about dog devlopement but previous pups I have, had medium and large breed, it was always around 12/13 weeks.
Not sure if I am putting this right but would that be a problem if you are socialising house training etc and the eventuall home is ideal.
I do agree that if people know they are going away why dont they either say this or look for another litter right from the beginning.
My current pup I was determined to have around the beginning of my summer holidays in july so I would be 100 % there for the first 6 weeks I always told breeders my plans to see what they thought from the beginning and we talked about how odd days away from this could be managed seems odd to me.
btw I am not a breeder just trying to be good buyer and dog owner

When I had my litter, One owner wanted me to hang on to their pup an extra week. this was fine. then another asked if i could hang on for about four weeks. I was delighted too. I had the puppy 100% housetrained, recalling perfect to the whistle and walking on lead nicely. I loved it! this owner did appreciate what I had done for her.  What was important to me was that he was going to the perfect home where he is going to get the best of lives. afterall, the owner could have taken him at the 'normal' time, and got just anyone to look after him when she went on her hoildays which after all ils said and done had been booked for a year.

I've bred 3 litters and with each of them have had at least one puppy staying longer than the others because of the new owner's holiday arrangements. This was agreed at the time the owner went on my waiting list. The longest I've kept a puppy is 11 1/2 weeks and I started to do all the training with that puppy that I do with one I keep for myself. For me the only problem has been that it makes it even harder to let the puppy go :-(

I picked my last puppy up at 10weeks old, due to original buyer changing their mind.  We were over the moon that they did and the breeder had done so much with the pup she was house trained, lead trained, in a great routine for bed and had the socialisation of the older dogs at home and the breeder taking her out loads in the car.  If I had to do it again I'd take another 10 weeker any time.  No I wouldn't loose a fantastic home over a three week holiday, if I was the buyer I'd be heartbroken at the thought of losing the puppy and the breeder who was doing so much right by her pups.  I can understand she should have mentioned the holiday, but it's done now and if you think this is the perfect home then keep the puppy for them :)

>but it's done now and if you think this is the perfect home then keep the puppy for them :-)

Unfortunately she says she's already turned the lady down, and I'd be surprised if she'd accept the puppy if it was re-offered to her after the insult.

I keep mine till they are 12 weeks old any way, fully vaccinated and been socialised,house and leash trained and new owners said the transition was so much easier than with an 8 week old pup in the past, the pups who are not staying here are used to sleeping in a carrier/crate alone too, they can still hear,see and smell the others but get used to being seperated.

If you don't normally vaccinate then I would get the new owner to pay that cost upfront so you can get it done at your vets.

If the new owners ticked all the other boxes then I would be happy to work with them over holidays etc.

>but it's done now and if you think this is the perfect home then keep the puppy for them

Unfortunately she says she's already turned the lady down, and I'd be surprised if she'd accept the puppy if it was re-offered to her after the insult.

That is a real shame, to lose a perfect home for the sake of a few weeks :(

I personally wouldn't take it as an insult if a breeder said to me they could not keep the puppy beyond a certain time. I'd just take it as a decision made out of need or necessity and if I couldn't adapt I'd look for a different breeder. I'd have been disappointed if the breeder I got my bitch from had said that as I'd researched her carefully and had checked all health checks and care routines/diet etc. thoroughly but I am sure she isn't the only good breeder out there. Besides, I didn't go on holiday that year, my bitch was my holiday and great fun we had training and enjoying her we had too :-)

I did turn down two prospective buyers who wanted me to keep puppies, one wanted me to keep the puppy a further 6 weeks but I did keep 4 puppies beyond the date they were ready to honour holidays and work commitments so for me if it is not long then I will but otherwise won't. That has more to do with me being a single person exhausted at the full on work of raising a litter, if I had a partner or more help then it might be different. It's not as if in turning one family or prospective owner down that there won't be an equally good family waiting in the wings. All of my puppies have lovely homes and I am in regular touch with all but one of them (occasional contact with the one, their choice) so by turning down two owners mine still have wonderful homes.

It's up to you as the breeder at the end of the day, how long you will be prepared to keep them.

> For me the only problem has been that it makes it even harder to let the puppy go :-(

I always expect to have at least one puppy up to as long as 14 weeks,  for one reason or another, though for UK homes about 11 weeks, as I won't part with a partially vaccinated puppy,(I'd feel bereft if they all went by 8 or 9 weeks).

People often go on a waiting list more than 6 months before the pups are born, and bitches have a nasty habit of coming in season early/late etc.

Also in my breed puppies are like busses none for ages then two litters come together then nothing for ages, so people need to book a puppy for when they are available, and if they have booked a holiday a year or months ahead it doesn't always work out time wise.

I haven't ever had to keep a puppy much longer than a week past the due collection date. Just the way it's ended up. Having said that, I have passed enquiries on to other people if holidays would have got in the way. I've been lucky enough to be able to pick and chose between suitable homes.

I think the thing I'd be most put out about in the circumstances that the OP describes is that the prospective purchaser has only just mentioned this. That just isn't fair.

It isn't fair to bring it up last minute.

I wouldn't be inclined to keep it, there are things that can happen unexpectedly, for example, what if it fell ill, who would pay the vet fees? What if they changed their minds? You would have an older puppy to find a home for, which isn't so easy.

In my last litter I kept a pup onto about 11wks.  Similarly, the home he was destined was excellent, everything I could ask for in a buyer.  I was keeping one of the bitch puppies such just duplicated all her training with my dog puppy as well, so he didn't miss out. 

It was harder to let him go though tbh, you do become even more attached :-( 

Most unfortunate though that OP buyer kind of put her a bit on the spot, if she had mentioned it originally there may have been more time to mull it over.  However, as others have said, I wouldn't think badly of a breeder who said this to me as obviously they have the best interest of their pups at heart.

<<<I wouldn't be inclined to keep it, there are things that can happen unexpectedly, for example, what if it fell ill, who would pay the vet fees? What if they changed their minds? You would have an older puppy to find a home for, which isn't so easy. >>>

We have on the odd occasion kept a puppy  a few weeks longer. In this situation the puppy is "sold" as normal at 7/8 weeks, all paperwork is exchanged etc, then it just stays with us until it is picked up.

Julie

>I wouldn't think badly of a breeder who said this to me

The OP did say "she got really offended"

JG - do you think the prospective purchaser has played fair in this, not mentioning her holiday from the outset? That's what would really have got to me!

Not really; after all until she'd viewed the litter she wouldn't know if she wanted one, would she? I wouldn't expect a buyer to tell me all their plans before we'd even met. Also it's not clear of the timescale here; are the pups ready to go now, how long has the lady been on the waiting list etc?

But surely it would have been the fair thing to do to mention her holiday plans BEFORE actually viewing the litter. That is certainly what I would do.

As I see it, until she decided that she liked the pups in this litter enough after viewing them to want to buy one there was no need to go into details about collection dates. With my buyer's hat on I'd say that I wouldn't be telling a stranger about my holiday plans unless they were going to be affected by it. With my breeder's hat on I'd think that someone telling me all these details before I've met them and agreed that they're suitable for one of my pups would be jumping the gun a bit and taking too much for granted.

To each their own, JG :)

Absolutely. :-) There are no hard and fast rules. :-)

After reading your replies and thinking anout my decision during the day I think the buyer got offended more because she took it that I didn't think she could look after the pup when really it is the puppy that is my only concern.
We discussed dates for when the puppy will be ready because we had been emailing each other for a few weeks,
You would of thought it may have prompted her memory!
I have 3 very big dogs of my own and I would worry constantly about the pup being damaged ( just by playing and running around the adult dogs) so it wouldn't be treated as my own for fear of breaking it!!  especially if money had been paid.
I dont  think the kc insurance would cover the pup if it was still with the breeder, when I kept a pup for myself before the free insurance wasn't valid.
I think if I was the buyer I would want my puppy as soon as I could at 7/8 weeks. Picking up a pup at 12 weeks when it's practically house trained, lead trained and has some commands is I think lazy, what if I do things differently to what they would've done, they then have got to unteach it these things.              
It just comes down to inquiring about a pup when you're ready for one, there's loads of litters out there.
My breed isn't a rare breed, if I have a waiting list it's mainly from word of mouth from my previous litters new owners because they like my breed ethic.

>It just comes down to inquiring about a pup when you're ready for one, there's loads of litters out there.

My God no, I started making enquiries about a year before I expected to find one, even in a popular breed.

>I have 3 very big dogs of my own and I would worry constantly about the pup being damaged ( just by playing and running around the adult dogs) so it wouldn't be treated as my own for fear of breaking it!!  especially if money had been paid.

It would be no different to the puppy you were keeping for yourself, surely? (Why else would you have bred the litter if you didn't plan to keep one? You say you're a hobby breeder, not one who's producing puppies purely to sell.)

>I dont  think the kc insurance would cover the pup if it was still with the breeder, when I kept a pup for myself before the free insurance wasn't valid.

No the insurance would start when the pup left your premises. No different to if it hadn't been sold.

>Picking up a pup at 12 weeks when it's practically house trained, lead trained and has some commands is I think lazy,

Yet my breed club insists that pups don't leave home until they are 12 weeks old.  I'm fairly certain that there are a few breeds that it is perfectly normal for pups to be homed at 12 weeks.  All the extra work/training etc is all part and parcel of a breeders responsibilities.  As to difference in size, my tiny breed lives with 3 collies. 

It just comes down to inquiring about a pup when you're ready for one, there's loads of litters out there.

The people who enquire about pups when they are READY for one are usually not the best buyers -they are the type that think breeders keep puppies on shelves ready for anyone to purchase them! Good buyers start approaching breeders a year or even several years in advance.

I'm fairly certain that there are a few breeds that it is perfectly normal for pups to be homed at 12 weeks.

Indeed. My toybreed go at 12-14 weeks depending on how advanced they are or not.

I have 3 very big dogs of my own and I would worry constantly about the pup being damaged

IME it is usually the adult dogs which need to run for their life. :-D

I can understand that worry, when bringing a pup in but one reared in your home by 8 weeks is usually socialising with other household dogs for manners and play already, if worried about night times or when your not in the same room you can always use a dog gate, puppy barrier or a crate to keep a pup/adult dog out of harms way.

Picking up a pup at 12 weeks when it's practically house trained, lead trained and has some commands is I think lazy, what if I do things differently to what they would've done, they then have got to unteach it these things.

I do find that a strange way of looking at things......... my pups are always booked prior to whelping, I already know about holiday plans and have never had a problem in keeping a pup for longer, infact I did have one once for 6 weeks over whilst the owners were on a cruise, I never work on a 'who can take the pup straight away plan' for my pups but on who will give the very best home for my breed, socialising , training makes no difference and I've never viewed me keeping a pup as a new owner being lazy as they have to carry on with everything once they have the pup anyway, even toilet training has to be restarted in a new home until the pup knows where it is.

The best home comes first, whether it is 2 weeks or 8 weeks over, yes it may well be more difficult for breeder and pup to let go, but if you know your pup is going to a fab home where they are going to love and train your pup well it is IMO worth waiting for.

Maybe the people booked for your pup did not overly impress you to let them go so fast? Who knows, but it is a breeders choice where their pups go, the reasons given would not be in my criteria though for ruling out an owner.

It's your choice at the end of the day and I'm sure you will find a good home for your pup, my only advice would be to be a little more flexible. :-)

"But surely it would have been the fair thing to do to mention her holiday plans BEFORE actually viewing the litter. That is certainly what I would do."

Absolutely. The issue of a new owner being on holiday at the time they should be collecting their puppy, should always have been discussed in advance. I cannot understand anyone choosing not to bring up the subject as soon as the breeder had said they could have the puppy. It is not as if they will have booked the holiday last minute, knowing it would coincide with the time they would be able to bring home their new puppy, surely?

I'm pleased you're proud of being a member of the Assured Breeder scheme, sadly I haven't joined 'cause I don't think I could say the same. I suspect your reluctance to hold onto a puppy for an extra 3 weeks justifies my decision.

You don't say at what age you expect to let your pups go, but if you are doing your job correctly then 3 weeks shouldn't be a hardship. Do you send all pups off at the same day? I wont allow 2 pups to go off at same time, at least 3-4 days before each ... that could easily mount into a 3 week period from first to last. Forget the 'stages of development' that are cited in books - they tend to be written by academics, I've yet to meet a dog who has read a book let alone the ones by 'academics'. I've also yet to meet many academics who have actually bred a litter. If YOU are doing YOUR job CORRECTLY I'm not sure why on earth there should be a problem.

In my first litter I kept a pup for until just over 4 months. Why wouldn't I? She was going to the most fabulous home who wasn't quite ready for her ... she's doing the most amazing job now ... saving lives on mountains. I DID do my job CORRECTLY :-D

Someone has said, if the person withdrew, it would make it more difficult to find a home for an older puppy. Who says? We're talking 3 weeks, not 3 years! At what age is it considered inappropriate for a puppy to be homed. If the puppy is raised correctly, as it should be, with all the experiences available to it, it shouldn't matter if the puppy goes to it's home at 6 months. My next litter I will be keeping a pup for just over 4 months, why on earth should I be worried? Ah, that would be 'cause I do everything correctly. Sorry if this seems rude, but this original post is just bonkers. 3 weeks? Assured Breeder Scheme? Nah, hells bells, they've got to do better before I want to join :-(

For many reasons people prefer e-mail contact, including myself. It means you can bombard someone with questions without having to worry if you're interrupting their tea, some social occasion, when they're busy or when (god forbid) they're just enjoying special time with their dogs. If you don't like the e-mail contact, e-mail them back and give them a time that's convenient for them to ring. You may well find that they were actually thinking of your convenience by sending an e-mail in the first place.

I think it a little odd that the subject of her holiday hadn't come up earlier - although I guess it would have if she was vetted before your pups before were born...  Were the pups already on the ground when you met her?

It's a shame that you are so inflexible about keeping this pup a bit longer.  Your big dogs are presumably quite capable of coping if, as you say, you've bred litters before.  You are also keeping one of your own to show aren't you?  I'm sure that keeping two can be a bit more work but nice for you to spend a bit of extra time I should think :)

If there are 'loads of litters' in your breed then good homes are increasingly difficult to come by.  If this woman is experienced in your breed you should feel flattered that she's chosen your litter and that she trusts you to look after the puppy during this period.  The holiday is unfortunate and it sometimes isn't easy or possible to change plans (it happened to me!) but it shouldn't be the end of the discussion.

However if she's really gone then she might consider it a lucky escape - and not meant to be.  Potential puppy owners do want (an sometimes need) their breeders to be supportive and helpful for the pups lifetime and perhaps this isn't something you feel in a position to offer?  My breeder held on to a pup for me (nearly a week I think), and it was the longest holiday of my life!!  I took pictures away with me and asked my brother to print me some more and bring them with him when he joined us

I have just taken a case like this, as the family was on my waiting list with respect of adopting one of my furbabies  ( Pup unexpectantly became available as the people who had reserved her had a change in their circumstances so withdrew) On first contact the family told me they were going on holiday at the end of June, (Pups are 8wks old 6th June)
Straight away the family said " But we can't expect you to hold Puppy that long".
My reply was "why not?"
We talked at great length on the telephone, as if the family were here with me.
After in depth discussions from both sides, I knew that this family were experienced in my breed and ticked everybox I look for in a new home. We arranged a visit (4 hour round trip for them) and on meeting we knew this family was perfect and they obviously felt the same way as they paid in full for her.(She is very yummy ;) )
I am keeping a female myself so I know that I will have 2 -untrained Pups that will need individual training, lead & car training and also continuing their socialisation and housetraining.
As well as my 5 Adult dogs (who would never harm a furbaby, that is down to social interaction and the temperement of my dogs)
Also I have a litter due on the 14th of June-madness some people would say but I love what I do and I am proud that it shows in all my dogs and furbabies.
BUT this family was perfect and I was not willing to let the prospective perfect home slip through my fingers.

I do think you may of lost a fantastic home, I find I get glowing update reports from Puppies that stay that bit longer, as breeders we should be more educated on socialisation and training methods than the new family is. Which is surely best for Puppy, they will be handed over better trained and knowing basic commands. Emails seem to be the way to go now as there are so many scams. I take 2 emails & reply to 2 from interested people then advice them I would like to have a telephone call, its a touch down point, then we move on to texts, pictures by email & texts to keep families updated and more emails- I physically can't be on the phone all the time (Dogs, Kids, Hubby or the oven & kitchen sink would not allow me) They are your Puppies your decision, Your post makes it sound like you just want Pup in its new home quickly-(Yes socialisation is vitally important but as the breeder you can continue this before Pup leaves) I am interested that if one of your puppies was returned, what would you do then?
This is my first posting on here but have read and followed for many years- but found this posting close to heart as we have just gone through this.

> I find I get glowing update reports from Puppies that stay that bit longer, as breeders we should be more educated on socialisation and training methods than the new family is. Which is surely best for Puppy,

ditto.  Interestingly going back a little while we had a long thread on the opposite view from some posters adamant that they would never buy a puppy over 8 weeks old.

I am pleased that this post realises that from a decent breeder rearing and socialising puppies appropriately for their age the new owner actually benefits from having an older pup.

The animal welfare agencies and vet profession seem to foster the idea that getting an older pup is a bad idea as they assume most breeders are poor, rather than saying don't get puppies from bad breeders/puppy farmers because the pups won't be socialised properly.

Not replying to anyone in particular. I wouldn't be bothered about keeping the puppy a few extra weeks, but it was a pity the lady in question didn't think to tell the OP that she had this holiday booked until a long way down the line of talking and puppy viewing. That's what would bother me more, not if I'd known from the start.

I think the buyers may well have thought they stood a chance of losing the pup if they said right away they had a holiday planned -and as it turned out they were right! So I can see the point of it not being disclosed at the start, even if I myself would not act like that.

As a buyer I don't think id mention I was going on holiday until I had seen the pups and known if I liked them or indeed if the breeder liked me. In fact when we got our second puppy we had a holiday booked when she would have been about 17 weeks old, we didn't mention the holiday until we went to view her. As it happens the lady couldn't have her back due to other commitments but it didn't stop us being allowed to have her, we just made other arrangements.

Is there any reason she couldn't take the pup at 7/8 weeks and then bring it back to you for the date of the holiday?

For me, I cherished every single minute of the time when my bitch was a pup. Every day she learnt something knew or responded to us in humerous ways, or showed her little quirks. I loved teaching her everthing, I loved seeing her learn everything. To me had we not collected her when she was small we would have missed out hugely, not only in our very close bond with her but of the experiences with her and watching her. We talk about the things she did and our memories of those early days and weeks so often still. I think for me as an owner when the time comes for me to buy again I will be researching a litter that a) is healthy and well bred had all the tests got excellent scores etc. AND b) is ready to go when I have the time to collect it and devote my time to her then so I can enjoy and cherish every single minute while they are small, those are precious times.

I don't agree that a potential owner should feel afraid to mention that they have a holiday booked that would coincide with the time they would be due to collect their puppy. If someone comes along that seems perfect for a pup, then a booked holiday should be of no significance to the breeder. I have never ever had a potential owner fail to mention a planned holiday in plenty of time though, it is simply good manners to do so.  It also demonstrates that the potential owner is thinking ahead.

>As a buyer I don't think id mention I was going on holiday until I had seen the pups and known if I liked them or indeed if the breeder liked me.

Nor me - in fact if I was to tell a total stranger that I'd never met where I live and when I was going to be away and the house empty, my insurance company would be very annoyed!

No one is suggesting that a potential puppy owner should inform a breeder at the first point of contact that they are going on holiday though are they? It is merely being suggested (quite rightly imo) that such matters should be raised before the last minute!

>No one is suggesting that a potential puppy owner should inform a breeder at the first point of contact that they are going on holiday though are they?

The OP has! She said "I will definitely be asking about holidays etc. as one of my first questions,"

> Am I being unreasonable not to want to hold the puppy for another 3 weeks

I would think the answer to this is yes, you are being unreasonable... I don't understand your reason for turning down, what sounds to be a lovely home, for the sake of 3 weeks... surely the 'whole' future of your pups are more important than these 3 short weeks. 

I have a litter at the moment.  12 weeks old.. keeping 2 pups myself, one pup is staying an extra 2 months while owner is in China on business, plus keeping another pup for an extra 5 weeks while owner holiday in the states.. Also, bring back a pup early July, owners on holiday, but wanted pup and I happily agreed to have pup back for the couple of weeks while they are away... preferable to kennels at this age... so in effect, I will have 5 16/18 week old pups and still manage to socialise them and get them through the most important stages of their young lives...

I don't understand your problem, but thats just me!

I am with the original poster here. Although I have on a few occasions kept a puppy for a little longer,  prefer not to.
I have a breed where I will not sell 2 pups together from a litter and feel they need separation from their litter mates by the time they are 8 weeks. I like to concentrate on my own puppy and its integration with my older dogs as this IS much harder with 2 as I have in the past kept  myself. All mine run around together ( I have 5 ) and there is a danger that a puppy could have a problem and yes it could happen to mine but I allow for that. Difficult if it happens with a puppy you do not intend to keep as I no longer feel it is "mine", I am just looking after it for someone else
If you do not need to as there are a choice of good homes waiting, I would choose another but to be honest, I think it is quite common for a breeder to build a relationship and then for the buyer to say by the way I have a holiday booked.

"and get them through the most important stages of their young lives."

Yes, but ideally, this should take place in a pups permanent family home (imo).

Dawn, I applaud you for turning down this owner because she wanted you to keep the puppy for another 3 weeks.  Research shows that the optimal time for puppies to be placed in their new homes is actually under 8wks (7wks is ideal) - behavioural problems occur far less frequently in puppies which go to their new homes at this time, than puppies which are kept by breeders.

I feel very strongly that it is almost always wrong for breeders to keep puppies on, beyond the age of 7/8wks.  Few breeders who have just gone through the exhausting process of breeding their bitch and raising a litter will then have enough time and motivation (and energy) to dedicate themselves to providing a puppy (which they are not going to keep themselves) with all the socialisation it urgently needs from 8-11wks - whilst also caring for their existing dogs, their family and often work commitments too.  An 8wk old puppy needs one-to-one attention from a new owner, to fulfil its potential.

Recognising your limitations, trying to see that you are not omnipotent, and accepting that you may not be able to provide a puppy with everything it needs beyond 8wks, can be difficult for some - and can conflict with thinking of themselves as experts - but I would say all this is ironically part of being an 'expert'.

I'm an APDT trainer who runs a puppy socialisation class for puppies from the age of 8wks upwards.  The puppies I have arriving at 8/9wks almost always blossom into confident and well-adjusted mature dogs.  (Since they continue on through later classes, I get to see this.)  The puppies who join later, at 12/13/14wks are invariably much more problematic and some unfortunately just never get there and grow up to be afraid, in certain social situations.

[I now fully expect many 'experts' to give many stories of the pups they have bred and run on, which have later developed into healthy adults.  This is, always, the way this particular conversation goes on this forum.]  I think the APBC's advice on puppy socialisation and the optimal age to get a new puppy at, speaks volumes.  You'll see that the UK's top, most reputable behavioural body - frequently recommended by members of this forum - is actually recommending that puppies are homed at 6wks - which is already 2 wks younger than the average age most puppies are homed at:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation2

"Prospective owners can maximise their opportunities to socialise and habituate their puppies by obtaining them at six weeks old, having already made arrangements for the appropriate vaccination programme with a veterinary surgeon. Of course failing to obtain a puppy at exactly six weeks does not automatically lead to disaster, but the later puppies are acquired the more precious time will have been lost and the less likelihood there is of developing a sound temperament." 

And yes, this article has already told buyers how to buy from a reputable breeder and is not talking about getting puppies out of less than ideal environments - it is talking about 'good' breeders.

Unfortunately, breeders are frequently left with puppies because they can't sell them or a suitable home has not yet appeared.  It can be hard for breeders to manage the conflict of HAVING to keep a puppy beyond 8wks, because they haven't found a home, and knowing that this is not ideal for the puppy.  Rather than manage that conflict, too many breeders do away with it, by telling themselves that it's fine for the puppy to still be with the breeder at 8wks.  It would be better to accept the fact that it's not ideal, but that they have done all they can to avoid the situation - than to convince themselves that it is fine, and to encourage others to do likewise when there are other options available.  (As in this case, when you can turn the owner down and find another home.)

>An 8wk old puppy needs one-to-one attention from a new owner, to fulfil its potential.

Or from its breeder.

>The puppies I have arriving at 8/9wks almost always blossom into confident and well-adjusted mature dogs.

That can be done equally well by the breeder taking the pup to socialisation classes, just as if they were keeping the pup longterm, rather than the new owner.

>I now fully expect many 'experts' to give many stories of the pups they have bred and run on, which have later developed into healthy adults.  This is, always, the way this particular conversation goes on this forum.

That's how conversations, rather than lectures, go. People discuss. :-)

> It would be better to accept the fact that it's not ideal, but that they have done all they can to avoid the situation - than to convince themselves that it is fine, and to encourage others to do likewise when there are other options available. (As in this case, when you can turn the owner down and find another home.)

Rabid, I think it's very clear we ARE talking about a situation that is less than ideal.  I'm interested though in what you consider to be the other options?

*OK this breeder might find another good home in the time available but remember this was a potential owner who didn't declare her holiday til very late in the day...  Puppies are how old now?  What happens if the breeder cannot find another owner?  The puppy has to remain with her anyway but has no end date in sight
** Perhaps the breeder could compromise their standards, and accept any owner simply because the dates match
*** Or here's another option - potential puppy owner doesn't declare her holiday to the breeder but puts the puppy in a kennel instead

I can't find anyone in this thread who advocates keeping puppies and many who say they PREFER not to keep a puppy if it can be avoided.  However we are talking about unusual situations where it is far better for the puppy to stay a few extra days/weeks with the breeder, rather than the alternatives above.

Rabid, I find your post quite interesting... You talk about "experts" when you are the one that presents as a self entitled "expert"? Being an APDT trainer means you probably did an online course. Dog training is not physics, yet you come out sounding like you are in charge of CERN.

Why would your experiences and your assumptions be more valid than the ones of people that have been breeding dogs for decades? Because you read a couple of books, and subscribe to a few newsletters of like minded dog trainers? Or do you have any valid scientific data and research that can prove your points? (This is, of course, a rethoric question, you don't, no one has, and all the books and articles that you can probably cite by hearth are nothing more than the authors opinion).

Regarding the poster that lost a good experienced home because he couldn't be bothered to keep the puppy for a couple of weeks... Really?

For my part, when looking for my pup who had to be imported as there are no litters here, I was in the position of not being legally allowed have my pup until he/she has had the rabies vax for 27 days...so essentially, you're looking at your pup coming in at 4 months. One well known breeder told me they did not want to keep puppies that long and just simply wouldn't. I no longer wanted a pup from that breeder then as I was concerned that that 'in-out-asap' mentality meant they were breeding more for financial gain, and would happily lose out on a good home in order to get it :-/