best way to do this?? best product?? any help appreciated thanks

I'm from the States and understand that we tend to overlook foreign substances on the coat a lot more than people do in the UK. Personally, I haven't used any foreign substances on any of the dogs I've handled since I've been here, but I used to show Australian Shepherds in the US and had to do quite a lot of chalking with them.

How you chalk and which products you use really depends on how large of an area you want to chalk. For larger white areas, I use corn starch rather than a name-brand chalk. It's cheaper and does the same thing. I use Kolesterol to hold the chalk in place. Difficult to find online, but I saw it being sold at Crufts so I know it is sold in the UK. You basically just apply the Kolesterol all the way to the roots, then use a chalking brush to brush in the corn starch. You can use a force dryer to blow the chalk dust back out of the coat (and off any surrounding coloured areas) once the Kolesterol has dried to make sure that there's no chalk residue.

For smaller areas such as a small marking on the face, use a small amount of Kolesterol followed by careful application of chalk using one of the sticks of chalk. Just make sure you don't get any chalk dust on the surrounding coloured areas.

What is the purpose of this fakery?

In most cases, it's more just enhancing what's already there. If you've got a dog out working, rolling in the mud, etc. it can be difficult to keep the whites truly white. This allows you to have a clean-looking dog on the day of the show without stopping the dog from being a dog. Sure, it shouldn't count against the dog if they've got slightly stained white areas, but some people believe it does put the dog at a disadvantage. If you're paying £25 for your entry fee, might as well show the dog to its best advantage. Obviously not everyone sees it that way, but that's generally the rationale behind chalking.

I have to agree more or less with you Brainless. I have dogs with white on & in one case  a bitch which was mainly white, I never used any chalk & she was rarely bathed & we always had comments on how white she looked!!! Not for me, I start as I mean to carry on..so dont use it from day one then I dont have to panick if I have a lapse of memory. I remember the days when ready groomed dogs were lifted off the table, one shake & a plume of white chalk appeared...usually covering the handlers black trousers!!!

My girlies have white feet and bibs and faces. It can be difficult to keep bibs clean as they wear a collar with thier details on whenever we are out of the house as the law in this contry expects.
They have a bath before a show and sometimes the bib is not a sparking as it was when they were younger but thats how they are. The construction and movement is not affected by a lived in bib. So no chalk for us thank you. It's cheating in my book.
I have very strong veiws on preparing dogs for showing. I feel all dogs should be washed dried and groomed through... but not backcombed, sprayed with hairspray, chalked, trimmed, or cliped etc... thats when we start to get dogs who live with their coats in rags all the time, who never get walked properly, who are not allowed of leads to run and romp and have fun. I know not everyone who has these high maintenance breeds is like that and am not accusing any of you of not allowing your dogs to live life but as in all things some people take it to the extreem. I would like to see all dogs shown as nature made them, clean and groomed but natural.
Aileen

thanks for all your info :) all new to me so appreciated thanks

as far as i know there is supposed to be nothing left or any residue on a dogs coat for showing..! think water is all ? sure i read that somewhere, so what annoys me is when you see LOADS of folk spraying dogs with this and that, powdering them with this and that, ROUND the ring on there grooming tables...! why is it allowed to happen, surley folk would want to hide the fact there dogs coat is FULL of un-natural prohibited things..???

sorry probably nothing to do with topic but gets my back up..!

> I would like to see all dogs shown as nature made them, clean and groomed but natural.
>

ditto, and owning a breed that is supposed to be shown like that I dislike the fact that in some countries all sorts of artifice is employed even with their coats, and would hate for it to creep in here and spoil showing such a wash and wear breed.

It only takes a few dogs over prepared in this way to start winning for it to become the norm as it seems to be with breeds with similar coats.

I find it wierd that so much crap is needed - you don't get much whiter than a jap spitz but I don't know anyone that does nothing more than shampoo and blow dry, my ch boy has the most incredible white sparkly coat that everyone comments on and I didn't wash it once between Xmas and crufts and yet it is still immaculate and that's with him spending the last 3 months rolling in any filth he likes lol.

Boody

Like button....just goes to prove a point I made earlier :)

Unless a dog is badly neglected and allowed to become so stained a bath won't shift most of any discolouration it doesn't have to be unnaturally persil white for pity's sake.  A surface rub over with a damp chamois (I use hypoallergenic baby wipes) should take care of any surface dirt like a bit of mud spatter on show day.

My friends dogs are often a little pink from the soil on Exmoor where they are exercised more than most, Yet a Bath a few days before major show (not every show) is enough to keep them the right colour (grey with pale legs and underside).

We stayed there for several wet days on a field and still manged to have acceptably clean dogs for Birmingham, and they were last bathed before staying there a month earlier. 

Have to admit it is much easier to keep my lot clean in town and if I don't go with them wallowing in the country pink mud then they only need a bath a couple of times a year, and I hate to say ti but the water runs cleaner off them on a rinse than it does when I wash my hair once a week.

Dogs that are bathed, in my opinion too frequently, attract the dirt like magnets and it then becomes a vicious cycle and they keep having to be bathed.

Interestingly enough the American authority on our breed, in which country products and over grooming/trimming seem to be king, raved over the coat textures of our dogs, yet the bloodlines on show were often those she was familiar with at home.

Agree - mine don't get more than a regular shampoo and blow dry and always look shiny and clean for a show. Henry used to get a tummy wash in whitening shampoo as he did wee on himself quite a bit and get his tummy and front leg feathering yellow and sticky, but I never felt he needed chalks or sprays to get him clean again.

Especially if left in the coat, chalk completely destroys the texture of the coat in my opinion. Same can be said for things like hairspray and other products for improving volume and texture. A good judge should be able to see right through all of this stuff anyway, so in theory there's not really much point unless you're using it to deal with something minor like staining. The only type of dirt I've ever seen that truly stains a coat even after a bath is some kind of volcanic red dirt. That stuff is a nightmare. Saliva and urine stains can cause stains that some might consider to be worthy of chalking as well.

There are really two ways of looking at the use of products on a dog. The first is that it enhances what's already there, and you're using it to provide the judge with a visual appearance that backs up what they're finding during the individual exam. Part of being a handler is also presenting your dog as close to the breed standard as possible, and the use of grooming products can help your dog appear to be more to-standard.

The second is that when you're chalking, hairspraying, etc. there's no way of doing it without it being at least somewhat obvious to people inside and outside the ring. If your dog has a fault that requires using these products in order to win, why bother putting the money into showing the dog in the first place? You're not fooling anyone, and you're certainly not helping your breed by showing/breeding a dog with a fault that requires serious grooming to hide.

I have bull terriers (white!!!!) and this breed is often chalked .I personally dont like it , nor do I like being choked to death by hairspray being sprayed about like there's no tomorrow... I think something should be done either you can have substances on the coat or you cant and stricter penalties should be in place and not to turn an eye on certain breeds

im new to dog showing,read and heard about it ...just thought id get a few opinions,thanks

spot on Flomo...!!

I suppose the only way to stop it is for exhibitors to refuse to do it (and encourage others to do likewise, especially their new puppy owners if they breed) and show their dogs can still do well without it.

I do think often the dogs win despite the fakery, but people assume it is because of it and follow suit.

I have a heavy coated white breed, never used chalk, and boy can my guys get dirty! ive seen dogs in the ring after chalking and the coat is dull and lifeless, . Good quality shampoo and blowdrying is all it needs. I use an aloevera and oatmeal one and its brilliant. Tried one of those purple shampoos for white dogs once, again it stripped the coat. Lost my first dog once the night before Crufts, he came back after spending all evening in a newly ploughed field which was red earth, i cried when I saw him, but after a very long bath, cleaned up beautifully and went on to get the DCC the next day. Keep a coat in good condition and it wont need 'fakery'

> Keep a coat in good condition and it wont need 'fakery'

Like :)

Like too !

I have seen dogs that have been chalked and IMO it makes their coat very dull. My dogs don't get bathed, a good rub over with a damp cloth before and after a brush through will lift the dirt. Only place I have to spend a little more time on is their hocks as even though they don't sleep outside or on hard floors they can still get discoloured so I just use extra elbow grease on them :-)

> Only place I have to spend a little more time on is their hocks as even though they don't sleep outside or on hard floors they can still get discoloured so I just use extra elbow grease on them :-)

and does it really matter?, they are dogs that get to walk on the ground. Mine get a bit of staining on the hocks and in some breeds I see the handlers covering it up as if it was something dreadfully important they never show a bit of normal living.

Next we will have people keeping their show dogs on those awful wire false bottoms so they never can get dirty, or never allowing them to walk on grass ever.  I know this already happens with some small breeds, quite sad.

More ammunition for those against showing who think the dogs don't get a normal full life because of showing.

Reading this thread with interest...I was ringside at Westminster this year and watched handlers and their assistants use hairspray, chalk and product galore on the dogs. The dogs looked picture perfect coat-wise but personally I don't think this breed are massively improved when they look as though they've come out of a trouser press and I'd rather see a clean coat than a preternaturally white coat that can only be kept that ways with bleach and optical brighteners.  I was sad to hear from one owner that her gundog breed lives with its handler pinned in a towel between shows to keep its coat flat. I enjoy the shows, but nowhere near as much as seeing my dogs loving their 'wild walks' with plenty mud, swimming and running over the moors. That's what it's all about to me. If it ever came to making a choice I know where we'd be.

Like to Jay15! I agree - if having the perfect coat presentation means my dogs can't enjoy their lives, I'll take the lower placing. I have numerous pictures of Henry covered in mud, twigs, water, grass stains etc, and it didn't seem to do him much harm in the ring once he'd been bathed!

LOL LucyDogs, if my carpets could speak they would no doubt complain about the mud that gets shed on them. And my favourite yearbook photo is of my youngest dog's sire, an international show champion popularly known as Boy...in his photo he looks like something out of the black and white minstrels but with less white. Caption: "That's my Boy!" Makes a nice change from all the carefully stacked and primped photos :-)

Kat and Co, last summer we were at an open show on a glorious hot day, thinking lovely thoughts and enjoying life, when I nearly doubled up hacking away like a chronic asthmatic. The cause was 25 feet away from us: three very determined women blasting away with their aerosols at a poor poodle with enough lacquer to freeze it into immobility, never mind hold its topknot in place. How that poor dog survived I don't know, but I was choking even at that distance. If that isn't an abuse of an animal I don't know what is.

I was disgusted at southern counties the other year when it was very hot they were grooming a poodle out in the blazing sun and so they could do the head was holding it by the muzzle so it could not pant, it will never change though because when do you not see a poodle winning in the utility group sO the incentive is there to continue.

Can anyone remember when the Bearded collie Cassie won BIS at Crufts, the following week in the dog paper was a photo of her standing in what looked like a mud wallow absolutely soaking and grinning from ear to ear!

interesting ..like i said im new to showing. spent the last 18 months at shows, ringcraft etc
im of the natural view. my two live in mud:) fine line to cross i think??

JAY15, in the States it's pretty normal for top-winning show dogs to live with the handlers. The dog wouldn't be kept pinned in a towel all the time, just before a show. Granted, the dog probably isn't going to be going for walks in the woods, but the handlers need to keep those dogs trained and in top physical condition so a good handler is giving each dog more far more training and exercise time than the average house pet anyway.

Plenty of people in the UK pin the dog in a towel after a bath and then again the morning before a show to keep the coat flat too though. The dogs spend most of their lives being normal dogs, but hair sticking up every which way can throw off things like a topline in the ring and a lot of judges won't award a dog that looks like that even if the dog had a correct topline on examination.

A dog on my breed recently got knocked by the judge for having discoloured hocks and although I wish it wasn't important sometimes the judge thinks it is and at the end of the day we are asking for their opinion (but mostly on conformation for me) so I just give them an extra rub with a cloth. :-)
Paula