Hi All,

I have a 6 year old westie which my husband has never taken to for various reasons. One of the reasons is his barking when post comes through the door, the door bell rings, people pass by the house etc. I have tried treat based training and rattles to no avail. Last weekend things came to a head and my husband nearly walked out. I felt that I had to chose between the devil and the deep blue sea i.e do I give the dog away and resent my husband for the rest of our lives or does he leave.................My OH is very intolerant to noise anyway, he walks out of shops when the messages come over the speaker! He says the dog is coming between us and interupting our conversations etc. I want to try again to have a trainer to come to the house and help me. OH has promised to sit in on sessions this time. Trouble is there are so many trainers out there and so many techniques I cant make a decision. I have picked 3 local ones, one uses clicker, one uses clicker and treat training. Having used clicker and treat training before I feel that one of the flaws is that the clicker and the treats are not likely to be instantly around when the bell goes triggering barking as this is unpredicatable etc and that my dog gets used to the treats etc infact when he is really in a barking frenzy he takes no notice of the treats anyway. However I had some quick nice replies from those two trainers fully outlining their charges and methods. The 3rd one I am curious about as it is Intuitive Natural Training and doesnt use treats however I can only find wishy washy information about it and the trainer just emailed back to say she would like to discuss on the telephone. Has anyone heard of INT and can tell me more about it, are there specific methods used? I feel I need to work on this problem quickly and OH needs to believe in the methods used too.

Never heard of INT and I would be VERY wary of someone who states straight away that they don't use treats - not that you HAVE to use treats necessarily, but I use whatever the dog finds most rewarding and for most dogs, thats treats. No point trying to use something the dog DOESN'T find rewarding now is there , and that then makes me worry that this 'INT' is in fact a clever gimmick to disguise dominance/bullying type methods.

A constant or reactive barking problem IS really hard to live with so for someone who doesn't like noise, that could be a real nightmare.

What does your dog do during a typical day - the fix for issues like this (and indeed for most issues) is holistic - you need to look at the whole of the dogs day/life, to see whats missing, what can be added in or taken away, what can be changed.

I have a Mr Barky  Pants, hes a tibetan terrier and it comes with the territory - if he is under exercised (physically or mentally), if he is allowed to stare out of windows, if he is subjected to certain things he finds stressful - he is super reactive to noise at home.

If we make sure he is tired out mentally and physically, we endeavour to keep his stress levels as low as possible (so, OH is banned from slamming doors, he isn't permitted to stare out of windows and yell at stuff, we don't take him to stressful places), then his behaviour is infinitely better.

I do think your OH needs to understand that a terrier WILL make a noise from time to time - if he cannot tolerate ANY noise AT ALL from the dog then you do have a tough decision to make because it is unfair and highly unrealistic to expect silence from a terrier. Now I realise that may seem obvious, but actually ask your husband to think about what noise/what reasons for noise/ how much noise he WILL tolerate, so you get him involved in the process and he starts to see what is realistic, and what isn't.

Some of your problems need to be managed in the first instance.

So - put a postbox on the gate or by the door so the post does not have to come through the door. Alternatively put a cage on the back of the door and use a baby gate to prevent the dog having access to the door when the post comes.

Use frosted window film (you can get some pretty patterns) to block the dogs view from windows so he cannot see people passing or approaching the house.

Disconnect the doorbell and put a poster on the door asking people to ring your phone to gain access.

By taking those three steps, you will, within a week or two, cut out a HUGE amount of stress and triggers for your dogs reactivity.

Alongside this, make sure your dog is physically and mentally tired out, so an hours walk morning and night, clicker training and other fun stuff to tire out his brain. Feed from food dispensing toys rather than from a bowl and set aside some of  his daily food portion as food rewards for working with you (particularly for 'on the spot' training, so you carry that food around and he NEVER knows when you are suddenly going to spring an opportunity to earn reward on him) - mix in some higher value stuff like cheese or ham so its always a bit of a gamble as to the value of the reward, it keeps him guessing and keeps him keen.

IF he barks at you for attention (and I get the feeling this may be happening), IF you are doing all of the above stuff, then use a time out - you just walk out of the room, shut the door for the count of ten and return as if nothing happened. You do this EVERY time, the second he opens his gob to shout at you. If you find you are getting frustrated then change the subject rather than 'give in', so if its the 100th time you 'timed out', and you open the door and he tries to shout at you, one last time out and this time instead of opening the door to come back in, you open thedoor and walk AWAY to do something else.. thats 'changing the subject'.

If you use time outs WITHOUT doing all the other stuff I have mentioned, basically you will just push your dog to find a different way of getting your attention, so be warned, its a very very useful direct consequence for behaviour you do not want, but IF you use it without addressing all the other aspects, it will NOT work.

http://www.intodogs.org/books.aspx
Try getting some of these books to read . The methods used are very much along the lines of how to chill out your dog .
You could re arrange things . Postbox on your gate , if your gate is too far we put a gate up on the side path round to the house for the post .Or a soft padded letter box and a wire catch box for the post , and having a porch door between so your dog is not near the letterbox. Having noise sensitive  collies all doorbells are banned at every house we have lived in . We have had an intercom system  but the best was the old fashioned  ships bell  by the gate . I guess you are close to people though as you say about the dog barking when people pass.A good trainer will assess each aspect of how you live with your dog ..

OP- I felt that I had to chose between the devil and the deep blue sea i.e do I give the dog away and resent my husband for the rest of our lives or does he leave

Never heard of INT and I would be VERY wary of someone who states straight away that they don't use treats

Goes to illustrate how vastly far apart different people, in different situations, order their priorites & worries, especially as the the dog is continualy reinforcing (incorrectly called 'reward') the barking behaviour. (rewarding itself).

OP, the way you write it comes accross that something major is going to happen very soon indeed because of the loss of the quality of life & quailty of the relationship.

IF that is a correct asumption on my part then I suggest you try whatever it is you wanna try ASP, like tonight if you can.

If my assumption is right it seems all your 'do it tommorows' ran out yesterday.

I do feel for you, did you know that your husband was noise sensitive prior to choosing a breed? As terriers are definitely one of the most vocal breeds, it is part of their breed trait. :-) Your husband by the sounds of it is not being a grump he genuinely is finding any loud, piercing noise hurtful and possibly harmful if he is so noise sensitive he may well have a real gripe here. :-(

Barking as you know is how a dog communicates, they are as entitled to talk just as much as you or I, so you will never totally eradicate a dog from barking, there are many different barks from excitement, territorial, fear, saying hello to habit, and making their own fun through boredom, so understanding which bark is for which reason will need to be broken down and from then on you can learn how to deal with each scenario, a good behaviourist will help you with this and teach you how to react to each differing barking session.

The most important things to implement for many of the reasons for barking is to teach the command Quiet, Stop, Leave or even a good strong Shhhhhh......... depending on what is happening, it is something which should be taught from puppyhood and will stop a bark as it starts, and yes new commands are taught with a treat it is how you embed that a dog is doing the right thing along with praise, using tools like whistles and clickers are also invaluable, (I wouldn't be without a whistle :-) ) though not really great for using in the home, as as you have already realised you may not have a clicker to hand when needed so a command with praise will do just fine. :-)  So I agree wholeheartedly with theemx I would be very guarded if a dog is not being offered a treat as a way of understanding it is doing good and embedding the seed it is doing the right thing. **Thumbs up**

I also agree that distraction and keeping your dog away from situations which will start a territorial bark need implementing, when he feels you are taking charge of a territorial issue or declaring everything is ok it will stop him needing to give his own message, fun and excitable barks can be distracted along with boredom and habit barks, remember your dog is barking as he is giving a message how you react to that message is how you stop it from continuing.

Sometimes it may be as simple as blocking his view or putting him where he cannot be excited by something or stopping it by distraction before it starts, other times you can simply give a command for him to abide by. These are the things a behavourist will teach you, there is not one rule for all different barks.

If your husband believes you will be able to have a quiet dog with no noise, that is not possible either. :-) A dog is a dog. But, you will certainly be taught techniques for probably cutting down on much of it.

I would certainly look for a good behaviourist via this website.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/

Very best of luck. :-)

http://www.intodogs.org/ found this site re intuitive training. A bit non specific no mention of no treats but refers to gentle methods fitting each dog and definitly no e collars etc yay !
Can see why they would want aphone chat website doesnt give a lotof info to me

Thanks theemx and everyone else. I will certainly give consideration to what you suggest. I do already keep the blinds drawn in the lounge which looks over the footpath to reduce barking. I have thought of a post box too, its just persueding OH to make one! I always try to stop the barking before it launches if its at grumble stage and this does work for people passing by but not for the door bell or post. I will try the ignoring methods again although I can only do this when I am on my own as OH can't do this due to his intolerance. Although I work my dog does get 3 walks a day and also goes to doggy day care twice a week which includes a night stay over so he is very tired when he comes home, but still summons up the energy to bark when necessary! I think OH doesnt expect total silence just to manage it and stop it when it starts.

Unfortuntely at the weekend my dog barked in his crate which he sleeps in at 8am on Sunday morning. OH yelled at him to shut up but 10mins later he barked again. I knew that there was a reason for him barking but OH was cross that his lie in was disturbed so I went downstairs and told my dog off. Later I realised that he had pooed in his crate and he was sick several times after I let him out so the poor little chap was trying to tell me why he needed to be let out. I knew this but was more afraid of OH response so my instincts were overidden. OH was very sheepish and didnt make an issue out it - he would normally sulk and not speak to me for the rest of the day .  I'm determined to try to deal with this now. 

I have decided on a trainer/behavourist who sounds very sensible, uses clicker. Has a good reputation with vets and the courts for helping dogs in a behavoural way. Also judges at crufts and works with dogs for blind.

Tbh, if you are worried about your OH's response, so that instead of letting your dog out which you knew he needed but told him off instead, if you are genuinely afraid of his response so that you didn't do what you were wanting to, then that is worrying. Sorry but I would really be looking at your relationship rather than your dog barking. The same as if he would sulk and not talk to you all day if his lay in was disturbed. Having come from a violent controlling relationship, I'm more worried about you than your terrier barking at what any dog would bark at.

Ditto what Alfieshmalfie said. If you're so intimidated by your OH that it causes your dog to suffer I'd say there's something very wrong with the relationship. If he treated a child that way, what would you think of him?

I'd keep the dog over the OH - every time.  But then, that's me!!

I have to agree with others that have been in a controlling relationship.  I could never go through it again.  It is awful to be frightened of waiting for the next outburst.

Be kind to yourself!  And if you can't be kind to yourself, be kind to your dog.  Let him live with someone who wants a dog.

> I have a 6 year old westie which my husband has never taken to for various reasons.
> Last weekend things came to a head and my husband nearly walked out. I felt that I had to chose between the devil and the deep blue sea i.e do I give the dog away and resent my husband for the rest of our lives or does he leave

Heayes, I can quite see that the dog might well be the last straw but I'd be surprised if he is the entire reason.  If things are a bit stressful in the house then your dog will pick up on it but likewise you and your husband are probably focussing on the dog too - and he's responding. 

You've had some very good practical advice about steps you can take but these will require a calm household, and consistent messages from you both to implement.  If you are in any doubt about your ability to put things in place, or your OH's willingness to accommodate your dog then I fear you have some tough decisions to make - for all your sakes.

I have a terrier type and he barks - it's simply what he does.  We do what we can to minimise the stimuli AND control the amount of barks but he won't change.  My husband is the most tolerant of men, and adores all our dogs, but even he gets huffy when trying to work from home and our barker has found a dozen things to tell him about!!  Is your husband ok health wise?  Barking can be almost unbearable for people under stress and perhaps there are underlying issues which he can't voice.  If these are new, more extreme, behaviours from your husband perhaps there are other causes.  However it could just be that he's just hit a low patch and the dog is taking the blame, or perhaps the dog is the catalyst for necessary change.  In truth, I can honestly say it will be easier for your husband to change his responses than for the dog to change his barking.  I hope you manage to sort things out for the three of you :)

Unfortuntely at the weekend my dog barked in his crate which he sleeps in at 8am on Sunday morning. OH yelled at him to shut up but 10mins later he barked again. I knew that there was a reason for him barking but OH was cross that his lie in was disturbed so I went downstairs and told my dog off. Later I realised that he had pooed in his crate and he was sick several times after I let him out so the poor little chap was trying to tell me why he needed to be let out. I knew this but was more afraid of OH response so my instincts were overidden. OH was very sheepish and didnt make an issue out it - he would normally sulk and not speak to me for the rest of the day .  I'm determined to try to deal with this now.

I my experience dogs don't do long lies therefore one of you needs to get up and see to him (even on the weekend - the dog doesn't know it is Saturday and Sunday, it is just another day to them). A while back my dog had a diahorhea bug and was barking me up in the middle of the night so he could get out. If my dog barks in the night I know he is telling me something and I go to investigate.

I think it is your hubby that needs training (to be more responsive to the dogs needs).

Poor little dog

I agree am worried about little dog and the op. Unless there is something healthwise that she doesnt want to discuss re her oh and of course thats fine  i think she needs to re think her position in her relationship to let the dog stay what turned out unwell in its crate because she feels worried about oh reaction is awful. I really worry for them both

Bless her - hope they are both OK.  When I think what my OH puts up with dog and cat wise!  They always come first in our house!

>But, what I have seen Ian Dunbar write to an aquaintance of his is that food reinforcers should be phased out completly by 6 months

Ian Dunbar's not a stupid man; he knows that if you're training something new you're effectively starting from scratch, regardless of age.

I sympathise i really do.
I have a rescue JRT who is super noise reactive. She can hear whats happening in the next village never mind the doorbell.
She is much better now though.
When the post used to come through the door it almost looked like it had been shredded.
I bought a cast iron letter box from Ebay and mounted it on a paving slab. Only someone built like Garth would ever consider pinching it.
I Oiled our squeaky gate.
I Bought a cheap plug in door bell which i would activate for training purposes and when she would start barking i would instruct her to go to her basket using my deep firm im in control voice. If she remained in her basket and didn't bark she got an exclusive high reward treat i.e. dried liver. It probably took no more than two weeks to sort her out.
I only close the blinds when i go out otherwise she will bark in my absence but she doesn't do it when i am home.
On the plus side of a barking dog i am a firm believer it puts off potential burglars. I have five dogs and anyone even considering entering my home uninvited would have to be absolutely off their trolly. The area in which i live has predominately elderly residents so cold callers and dodgy builders are the norm around here. No one pesters me or either of my neighbours though. 
My teenage so who has Aspergers syndrome is very noise sensitive and he used to scream at my JRT to shut up. After i explained to him that it is her way of talking to me and that i was working on it he understood better. She senses his frustration which used to cause her to bark more.
Would ear plugs help your hubby at all just to make noises a bit duller or at least so he could have his lie ins undisturbed?
I hope you soon find a solution soon that suits you all.

> It simply means what it says, "Lure" to teach & then phase them out, it only takes (as most have experienced) 2-3 maybe 4 repetitions before even a puppy, with a low a concentration span, understands a simple task of "sit", then you phase them out once it's done that, as Ian Dunbar says "...make sure you phase them out as ASAP"<br />

In context:
"Even after you've stopped using food as a lure it is valuable to continue using food as a reward, but it is important to be selective and reward only your dogs best responses." Ian Dunbar
Taken from here (Quantum leap 3, phase out food rewards)

My dog is food motivated, he doesn't like toys and fuss wasn't high on his priority list. Using food paired with fuss, he now will accept fuss as a 'reward', but even at 4* years old the occasional food treat is used while out on a walk. For example, an adult stranger comes running at us, he turns calmly to face me without being asked to, that is a brilliant response (he's a guarding breed) that I want him to most defiantely continue with so he will get a food reward. Seems rather pointless to stop using somthing, especially something the dog values highly, completely.
*Or should that be especially as he's 4 years old, so going through the maturing phase and liable to be a bit 'testy', so IMO it's important to ensure the correct responses from him are reiterated as he goes into adulthood, don't want any guarding behaviours popping up.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">themx - wary of someone who states straight away that they don't use treats<br /><br />Oh really, so does your enlightening statement make Ian Dunbar a bit of a useless figs buttock then?<br />

Errr.. no, not in the slightest.. since you like picking apart peoples posts...

"wary of someone" - this means I would be questioning their methods and double checking on what they are saying/meaning.

"states straight away" - I may not have been clear here, but I am referring to the sort of trainer who explicitly states they will NOT use treats BEFORE they have met the dog or understood what the problem is.

Ian Dunbar DOES use treats, Ian is a big fan of treats (and I would know that, having discussed it with him personally) - but treats used appropriately, not treats used willynilly or to lure a dog so that the dog is blindly following the treat and has no idea what it is actually doing to earn it.

As far as I am concerned, a trainer who states outright without seeing the dog or finding out the problem, that they will not use food rewards, is the same as a plumber stating that they will NOT use a spanner before they have seen the job that needs doing.

Food rewards are a vital part of the 'tool kit' - where on EARTH is the point in NOT using what could be a particular dogs ultimate reward if you can use it..  thats not to say its necessary for every single dog in every single situation, but my problem is a trainer unwilling to consider it at all.

I've only just caught up with this thread and now I have, it's left me feeling quite sad. Did your husband ever really want a dog ?. My husband and I made the decision to have our boy together. He'd never had one before so I had to be 100% sure that he understood what it would mean to our lives. Now, nearly 10 years on we are still both so committed to him - we adore him, we spoil him, we go on uk beach holidays purely for him - we absolutely love him. He suffers many lows with his health and many many nights we've taken turns to comfort him despite our tiredness and frustration.
I think that before you even think about retraining your little dog you need to be sure that your husband can find love for him. Do they bond now ?. Does your husband take him out and make a fuss of him ?. Without some sort of affection for your dog I really don't think it will ever work. It's not fair on your husband or your dog to make them live together if he can't accept him. If he wants a perfect dog he'll never find one.

Never heard of INT and I would be VERY wary of someone who states straight away that they don't use treats - not that you HAVE to use treats necessarily, but I use whatever the dog finds most rewarding and for most dogs, thats treats. No point trying to use something the dog DOESN'T find rewarding now is there , and that then makes me worry that this 'INT' is in fact a clever gimmick to disguise dominance/bullying type methods.

Blimey, that's a bit of a drastic attitude.

What worries me is that people assume if someone isn't going to use food to train a dog then they must be into dominance/bullying type methods.

Do you really think there are no other ways than the 2 extremes??

>For example, an adult stranger comes running at us, he turns calmly to face me without being asked to,

Fabulous!

> Do you really think there are no other ways than the 2 extremes??

Food rewards are not an 'extreme',  they are the most common reward as most dogs will look at food as a reward and it is easily given. By stating one will NOT use food rewards as a blanket statement does not give a very good impression.

If I asked you what reward you would NOT use to train:
a) my dog in most situations
b) my sisters dog in most situtations
would you really rule out one specific reward for BOTH dogs prior to even knowing anything about them? 

A little clue, my dogs most valued reward does not even equate to a reward for my sisters dog.
My sisters dogs most valued reward will be seen as a very small reward by my dog, but not enough of a reward to train in a new behaviour.

To rule out either of those 2 rewards* as a general approach to training is rather odd unless the 'method' does not actualy involve REWARD based training.

*I know I haven't stated what the rewards are as it shouldn't matter - training should be tailored to the individual dog - that's the whole reason ruling food rewards out as a blanket rule raises concerns.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Blimey, that's a bit of a drastic attitude.<br /><br />What worries me is that people assume if someone isn't going to use food to train a dog then they must be into dominance/bullying type methods.<br /><br />Do you really think there are no other ways than the 2 extremes??

Not really (and Mastifflover has also explained things pretty well)..

Firstly, positive reward training is hardly 'an extreme', but thats by the by really.

If someone said to me, before meeting the dog or knowing the problem 'by the way, I never train using toys' I would be just as wary - if someone said 'I'll train your dog but I won't ever use a dog lead'.. again, wary..

Ruling out a hugely useful part of the toolkit before meeting the dog in question OR knowing what the problem is, and many trainers DO do this, is frankly, stupid. If they are THAT stupid, then waht ELSE do they do that is stupid...

Unfortuntely at the weekend my dog barked in his crate which he sleeps in at 8am on Sunday morning. OH yelled at him to shut up but 10mins later he barked again. I knew that there was a reason for him barking but OH was cross that his lie in was disturbed so I went downstairs and told my dog off. Later I realised that he had pooed in his crate and he was sick several times after I let him out so the poor little chap was trying to tell me why he needed to be let out. I knew this but was more afraid of OH response so my instincts were overidden. OH was very sheepish and didnt make an issue out it - he would normally sulk and not speak to me for the rest of the day .  I'm determined to try to deal with this now.

Ahhh poor doggie,, i feel your pain,, my OH sometimes gets his nose outta joint with my Bullies heehee,, they can be a handfull,, but i find it all rather amusing lol,, as for the sulking for the rest of the day ,, my OH also does this over silly things sometimes I say Amen to that ;-) , it normally means i get on with my day better anyway,

i dont think the problems your dog , he's smart enough to try tell you he's busting for a pooh and feels sick plz help,,

personally id get shot of the old man loool, ((sorry am i bad)),

the dogs are so much more fun anyway, they dont moan about whats for dinner they just eat it, they dont care about  footie on the tv, And Even All 3of My dogs put together Dont Snore as loud as my old man!!,loool

I know who's leaving the house should my dogs ever annoy my OH that much,, well honey you know where the door is,,  Dont let the Dogs leads whip you on your backside on the way out heehee, Doggies Rule! xx

> personally id get shot of the old man loool, ((sorry am i bad)),
>
>

I did exactly that Chelzeagirl lol.

On a more serious note Westies can be very vocal little dogs and can bark at the drop of a hatpin. The op has been given good advice and if she can get the timings right should be able to bring the barking down to a reasonable level. I doubt the barking will stop but it can be managed. The husband is however a different story and I do wonder if this poor little dog will ever be accepted and loved by this man.

Never heard of INT and I would be VERY wary of someone who states straight away that they don't use treats - not that you HAVE to use treats necessarily, but I use whatever the dog finds most rewarding and for most dogs, thats treats. No point trying to use something the dog DOESN'T find rewarding now is there , and that then makes me worry that this 'INT' is in fact a clever gimmick to disguise dominance/bullying type methods.

These days, no matter what the source of advertising, most (not all) trainers will clearly state in their Promotional Material to set out their stall:-

"only uses positive methods of reinforecment"  and mostly (not always) this means food.  And everyone is happy.

So someone comes along and makes a statement , which also sets out their stall, saying they don't use treats.  I find it bizarre that it is assumed that because they don't use treats the worry is that they must use 'dominance/bullying type methods'.

We all know there are other methods of positive reinforcement but just because someone states they train without food doesn't make them supporters of dominance or bullying methods. 

Sorry Theemix. You may not have intended it to sound such an extreme and limited a view but that's exactly how it comes across. 

As far a the OP problem is concerned, I'd echo the suggestion already made to find out why the dog was barking and tackle it accordingly.  One good way of finding the reason for barking is in Barking, the Sound of a Language by Turid Ruugas.  Strangely enough, Turid's books are recommended on the link that Stevensonsigns put up for said training organisation that might use dominance/bullying methods but no-one would ever link Turid Ruugas's name with D&B.

Food rewards are not an 'extreme',  they are the most common reward as most dogs will look at food as a reward and it is easily given. By stating one will NOT use food rewards as a blanket statement does not give a very good impression.

I didn't say that food was an extreme. The 'extreme' in my post refers to the fact that there seemed to be an either / or option of use food or use dominance/bullying methods with nothing in between - that's an extreme choice. 

I really don;t know how to make this any clearer than I already have...

It would make me WORRY, it would not mean I would walk away, look no further, ask no questions - it would make me 'worry' and I would delve deeper to find out if that worry was justified.

You are perhaps really lucky that you haven't come across quite so many owners as I have, who have been mislead by 'trainers' into doing things that with hindsight and a bit more knowledge, they deeply deeply regret.

These DO tend to be the trainers who state they won't use food rewards, amongst other things.

I do have quite extensive experience in picking up the pieces when owners thought a trainer knew all the right stuff and in fact, didn't, so the words 'I won't use food rewards' rings alarm bells for ME from experience,  and I will always advise people investigate carefully and be wary of unpleasant methods that may be being used.

There are as the delightful Hethspaw pointed out, some extremely GOOD trainers, who if taken out of context, can be seen to be saying food rewards are not necessary, Ian Dunbar and John Rogerson being two of them - but put INTO context neither are suggesting food rewards are not necessary or should not be used.

So thats why I say be careful, be wary, investigate further - it MAY be something thats been taken out of context.. or it may be indicative of an actual problem.

You are perhaps really lucky that you haven't come across quite so many owners as I have, who have been mislead by 'trainers' into doing things that with hindsight and a bit more knowledge, they deeply deeply regret.

These DO tend to be the trainers who state they won't use food rewards, amongst other things.

I guess it must all come down to life experiences then.

I seen many really good trainers who never used food to lure or reinforce and I've seen some bad ones who use food all the time.

But, I haven't reached the stage where if someone says they don't use food I don't automatically worry that they must train by dominance and bullying methods.  I think there are many, equally vaild and equally positive methods about and it sometimes pays to keep an open mind about what's on offer.

>Sorry Theemix. You may not have intended it to sound such an extreme and limited a view but that's exactly how it comes across

floJO I do feel that perhaps, as you don't know many CD members, it may be worthwhile pointing out to you that theemx is very experienced.  And much valued for her advice and help on here.  So, it doesn't come across the same to folk on here that are used to her way of responding.

It is extremely easy to misinterpret the written word (I know I come across too abrupt for most), but please be assured that theemx doesn't have "a limited view."  :-)

Thanks Jean..

I too have seen great trainers work without using food to lure or reinforce - I can and do do the same with some of my own dogs too - but to categorically state someone does not use food rewards EVER, no matter what the dog or what the situation...

That to me is worrying - I don't know how many times I can say this, I think you don't WANT to hear what I am really saying perhaps. At best they are potentially making the job harder for both them and the dog, at worst, their training may well not work at all, and thats before we even get into the realms of 'are they using other less pleasant methods'.

My main interest and 'job' is behaviour rather than training (though training is fun, interesting and useful and I am perfectly capable of it, its behaviour that really lights my fire).

The use of food rewards in particular is very interesting - it can tell you a LOT about a dog to begin with. A dog who takes food in the house but refuses that same food outside.. that tells me something. A dog who would sell his grandmother for a piece of cheese in the garden, but wouldn't even acknowledge the existance of half a pound of cheddar out on the pavement.. thats useful information.

You can get the same information from other rewards, but starting out with any new dog, food is the obvious first thing to try as most dogs like food, particularly smelly, strong tasting food, I personally think it is extremely foolish to NOT consider using it when it may be the best motivator for that dog.

When I deal with any new dog, I like to see their response to a range of potential rewards, and the stock things to try first are cheese, liver cake, hotdog sausage and roast chicken, and then toys, squeaky toys, tuggy toys, furry toys, balls, and then fuss/praise (though you can usually figure that out in the first half hour anyway without specifically trying).

Since I mainly deal with fearful dogs, and regularly its fearful rescue dogs with unknown backgrounds/histories it is important to find out what floats their boat and how much value that item has in various locations.

Food is a basic need and stress does something interesting to an animals desire to eat/willingness to eat  - it inhibits it. Because of this food rewards can be a better indicator than toys as to how stressed a dog is feeling, some dogs WILL play around with a toy when quite highly stressed, because its an outlet for the 'fiddle about' option (of fight, flight, freeze, fiddle about). So it IS important to 'test' a new dogs reactions to food and toys in a variety of situations to get feedback and find out where the problems really lie and what is the highest priority etc.

Talking specifically about behaviour modification, as I was in my original post to the OP, the use of food there is not a reinforcer in the same way it would be if given after the dog complied with a command - its being used to change the dogs response to the trigger for a reaction, classical conditioning in other words. Noise paired with a 'treat' often enough will end up that noise = treat so noise = good thing.

To change an underlying emotional response as with the OPs dog, you HAVE to use the thing the dog finds most rewarding - and that is highly likely to be food (but it might equally be a squeaky ball or a scrap of rabbit fur on a string), if you attempt to do this using something the dog doesn't find rewarding or can take or leave, the process just won't work.

Human responses to the idea of using food rewards are also very telling, and I do ask people why they don't want to use food rewards.

I can practically guarantee that someone refusing point blank to consider their  use ever, will also tell me a dog ought to work for me because he respects me/loves me/thinks I am his master (and that would be nice but again we are talking about behaviour modification here, not training a simple new behaviour in a normal, problem free dog in a normal, relatively distraction free environment!). Nine times out of ten I will also be told that if you use food rewards then the dog will always expect food rewards and won't work for you the day you don't have any, which merely demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how to properly use food rewards in training (and again, glosses over entirely the use of food rewards for behaviour mod. work, which the OP in this case needs!)

At its most basic level, a trainer stating they won't use a certain thing as a reward (and it doesnt really  matter which of the common rewards they state they won't use!) suggests very strongly to me that this person is NOT going to listen to the dog they are working with all that well, because the DOG is the one who decides what he or she finds most rewarding, not the human.

As JeanSW has said, I really don't have a 'limited view', I have five dogs who are all quite different and none of them are particularly 'easy' to train (and theres not a collie among them), some work for food, some work for toys, some work for praise, some work for the opportunity to do things they like (chasing stuff).

I do clicker work with those who enjoy it and I don't with those who do not (because not all dogs like clicker training!) - I have even worked out how to get a dog who doesn't care about clicker training, to do it... (he doesn't get any sort of kick out of getting things right or figuring stuff out for himself so free shaping for him was a pointless activity, he just goes to sleep) - I could use slices of steak as a reward and he wouldn't consider it...

I had to think outside of the box and this dog LOVES to steal things - it makes his day if he thinks he has gotten something that he probably shouldn't have had (ie, it was out of reach and not in a dog bowl) - so I started pairing a short (1 minute or less) clicker session wtih me 'accidentally' leaving a dish with a couple of treats in it on the side.. and he would pay attention because if he DID I would suddenl y get an urge to wander off and he would have his chance at stealing the rewards...

Now he WILL do some free shaping and we can do up to six minutes worth in one go now, and he actively enjoys it... because he knows he is liable to have the opportunity to steal at the end (and this is fine with me because I get to teach him some new behaviours, and he gets what he wants too!).

If that doesn't demonstrate an ability to think outside of the box and get a dog onside, I dunno what will really (and no he wouldn't work for toys either!)

Ooh opportunity to steal used as a reward, think it would work well for a lot of my breed LOL

To Jean
and Theemix

I do understand the value of food, particularlly as an indicator of how a dog perceives a situation, its stress levels, etc etc.  but that was not my point.

The point I was making is the leap from:

someone saying they train without using food and it instantly setting up a  'worry' that they may be supporters of dominance and bullying methods. 

I found that bizzare the first time I read it and still do.  The relevance of my comments is not that food is a primary reinforcer for a dog and is also necessary for survival.  Its the assumption that if you don't use food you must support dominance and bullying that I find worrying, one is not a natural precursor to the other .  IMO it leaves the OP with what might be an unwarranted suscpicion and aversion to what could be a potentially useful tool when she is clearly needing to deal with a  very 'immediate' problem and the OP had already stated that she had difficulties in working with the other 2 trainers.  (and one difficulty was the practicalities of using click and treat (food)).

Great post theemix :)

Fantastic way of using the buzz your dog gets from stealing to your advantage, definately thinking outside the box! :-D

> Food is a basic need

LOL, this dog demonstrates the power of food!

ETA for anybody unable to watch the vid, the dog joined the race after being given food by one of the cyclists.

Theemix, can you move to Fife where I live please ! ?

But I didn't say that a trainer refusing to use food DEFINITELY means they do anything unpleasant - I said it would make me wary which means it would make me do more research on them.

If it makes the OP suspicious, good - it IS suspicious to state you absolutely won't use something when you have NO idea if that might be the exact right tool for the job at hand.

In my experience and I'll bet in a lot of other peoples, people DO need to be generally  more wary and suspicious about dog trainers and behaviourists, all too often people trust them because they are in a position of 'authority' whether thats deserved or not, and that very often leads to people doing things that they later find has made their dog worse!

I hadn't seen that, thanks Mastifflover, what a cute and smart little guy, I hope he gets a home!

That is exactly what my Lola would do lol.  I have a nice little dog in her who works well on the lead, will do good heel work off lead where there are not too many distractions around (other dogs doing exciting things or other food) and is been a lot of fun and pleasure to train.  Her sole motivation in life is food.  To train her without it would be like trying to walk with your legs tied together, possible but frustrating and pointless!

I too would be wary of someone who doesn't consider food to be a primary reward/reinforcer. Sounds like the old school methods/way of thinking of 'The dog will do it because I tell him to'. These type of trainers feel they are 'bribing' the dog when really it's just like us - we don't go to work for nothing! Yet a dog is expected to do it for a pat on the head and a 'Well done'. I would certainly be asking just what do they use as a reward? If it's what I think it is, it would be a 'trainer' who uses force/physical compulsion to get what he wants which is certainly not the way I train or teach my class.

I too would be wary of someone who doesn't consider food to be a primary reward/reinforcer. Sounds like the old school methods/way of thinking of 'The dog will do it because I tell him to'.

I don't think that the INT Trainer said one way or the other as to whether they considered food to be a primary reward/reinforcer - just that they didn't use it.  And that really does not mean that they must have an attitude of 'the dog will do it because i tell him to'.

I personally know many gun dog and sheep dog trainers who don't use food in training but they do use very kind effective methods.  Some of them have gone on to train pet dogs simply because pet dog owners have seen the method and the results and asked for their expertise to train their dogs.

It really is not a case of use food or use bullying methods and I find it hard to comprehend how so many can say you are so experienced and still hold this either or concept while excluding all else in between.

I'll say it again - quite bizzare but each to their own.

That is not the point being made FloJo, the point is that if someone specifically states they do not use x y or z - be it food, toys, leads, whatever that instantly suggests they have a fixed opinion on training and would not be prepared to adapt their methods to suit the dog.  Most reward based training tends to involve using high value rewards for the dog to encourage appropriate behaviours.  Otherwise how are you going to reinforce the behaviours you want? 

It really is not a case of use food or use bullying methods and I find it hard to comprehend how so many can say you are so experienced and still hold this either or concept while excluding all else in between.

Even so -anyone giving a blanket statement saying they do not use food is surely very narrow minded and THEREFORE should be avoided, as all dogs are best trained with whatever rewards suits the INDIVIDUAL best! That could be food for one, a toy for another, or simply praise for a third!

And that really does not mean that they must have an attitude of 'the dog will do it because i tell him to'.

And nobody said so, rather we all said that for anyone to dismiss one type of reward out of hand for ALL dogs is a great cause for concern. It could just as well have been that they said they wouldn't use toys. Even if something only works for 1 dog out of 100, why rule it out? Thousands if not millions of people would love to go to a football match watching some top teams play live, if I was offered that opportunity for me that would be like a punishment. Dogs are the same, they don't all have the same preferences.

>I find it hard to comprehend how so many can say you are so experienced

With respect, please be aware that there could possibly be people reading this thread that are questioning why you think that you are so experienced and know better than the others.

We have so many really good people on here that I personally, find it offensive that you are being so argumentative with them.

'nice' sounding things like 'ami chien bonding'

Thats really memorable, I remember that filling up every post on all forums promoting it as 'positive' training, probably about 8 years ago, pet owners used to approach like groups of monks writing to block any mention of any other 'training' approach & sing praises to the craven idol Fennel. What happened to that? or did it not work? yes a bit of nostaligia those words.

With respect, please be aware that there could possibly be people reading this thread that are questioning why you think that you are so experienced and know better than the others.

Other people reading this may question what you say above.  That's is their right.

But I still stand by my questioning of what was stated on here which was  'if a trainer doesn't use food then there is a worry that they support dominance/bullying methods'.

So far no-one has explained to me the leap from one to the other.  There is no logical, reasoned or valid foundation to make such a daming judgement.

I have heard all the reasons why food should be used but no rationale to explain the bizzare assumption that not using food equates with bullying.

Years ago I was taught to read by the phonics method and it was reasoned that by learning to recognise each letter of the alphabet and how they sounded, learners could build up words and learn to read quite complexly constructed words they had never seen before and pronounce them. Having pronounced them they immediatley knew that had 'heard' the word before and so knew what it meant.  So not only could they read new words they could also understand the context of what they were reading.  It was an invaluable tool for learners to feel confident that they could approach any new, long and complex words by sounding out each letter therein.

Along came 'flash cards' or  'whole word' reading and the craze swept the educational system and was heralded as the only one worth using.  But this had limitations as when learners were faced with words they had never seen before they had no means of working out what the word was or how it sounded.  Flash Cards looked to bring quick reading but it brought little 'learning' in the long term.

So if you wanted a tutor for your kids and one responded to you but pointed out at the start that they didn't teach by the current 'craze' of Flash Cards would this automatically label them as supporters of bullying tacticts or of dominating the learner?

Of course it wouldn't.  It most probably meant that the tutor had a wider experience and knew that there was more than one way of delivering learning and having weighed up the pros and cons of differing techniques rejected the current 'craze' for a more tried and tested method which for them was more effective in the long term.

My 'arugument' if that's how you want to refer to it, is not disrepectful at all and no one so far has answered  my point but shifted the argument around to reiterate their own view of why food should be used.

My point was and still is that there is no justification for stating that if a trainer advises at the onset of being consulted, that they don't use food to train, it automatically raise the worry that they are supporters of dominance/bullying methods.

I personally know many gun dog and sheep dog trainers who don't use food in training but they do use very kind effective methods.

But surely, in those cases, the behaviour of working sheep and and retrieval work are the rewards ?, so no food reward would be needed in any case.