Moose loves to play with other dogs- she even goes to daycare for the socializing.

On walks she tends to start growling and barking at the same time- hackles raised and she thinks this is how
she meets other dogs to be able to play. Bad thing is the other dogs sometimes take it as a threat, which I totally understand who wouldn't.
Even the owners look at us like we have this big mean machine on our hands but she's not, she's as lovable as can be and we tell them
she thinks this is how she gets attention. We have tried popping her leash, walk on by at the same time, tried pop and sit at all times saying
leave it and good girl once we pass. She just gets very excited and wants to play. Would like to brake this behavious because she sounds like a monster
She now weighs 80.96 pounds and stands 26 3/4" at the shoulders so can see where she would look intimidating.
Once she gets to meet them she is happy and wants to bounce and play. Moose is now 7 months.
How do I brake her out of this behaviour?

Any idea's greatly appreciated :-)
Thank you

Hackles up suggests insecurity, as does the barking - what's the rest of her body language like?  Posture?  Any lip licking, set of her ears, 'soft' face?  Her tail - how high is it, does it wag fast or slow?

It sounds like she's unsure about the initial meeting then relaxes into play, I would be rewarding her while she's relaxed and take her away when she starts to get barky/hackley.  Clicker training can be brilliant for this (as can BAT training) as you can pinpoint the good stuff nice and quickly, and without getting too close yourself which can make some dogs more uncertain.  I reward my dogs initially as soon as they see another dog (I click when they notice then when they start seeing and turning back I click that) - the other dog then becomes a cue for coming back to me for a treat, and the whole experience is more relaxed as the pressure is taken off (i.e. they don't feel they have to go and greet, they have another option and that is the premise of BAT also).  It's useful not only for my dogs but for others - Linc is about the same size as Moose, so even though he's friendly and pretty good with body language, he can be intimidating.

Most importantly do not correct her for it - if she is uncertain that will only make it worse (association is formed of dog = correction), if she's not uncertain now then it could well make her so soon.

Her ears are normal, kinda go forward cause she's noticed the dog- she has floppy ears.
Tail is normal and wagging, usually up in the air. The growl y barking is when she see's them and she thinks
lunging at them so she can barge right in and visit works. We tend to pop and say leave it just as she notices and try to keep
on walking. If a dog just comes right into her (usually due to them being on an extended leash) then no acting stupid she's happy.
She goes and greats them straight away. She is a def brat that's for sure.

When she gets to meet them she still has hackles up, tail in the air wagging and sniffing. If we notice the other dog
starting to act a lil different where they seem a lil unsure or tend to give a growl then her tail stops wagging we just say good girl lets go.
So we leave on a good note b4 anything happens. I always tell her she's being rude and acting like that she won't be able to meet other
dogs on walks cause she scares them as well as there human friend lol Not like she understands me but I still tell her she's RUDE!

Is it possible that her behaviour is connected with daycare? (Eg if she is allowed to be boisterous with other dogs/fly up to them etc this may make her worse on the lead. Or simply that the dogs there are off lead so when she is worse on lead as she is frustrated?)

Ok.  First off, stop popping her.  That will only add an association of dog=pop to the situation, and can very easily make her behaviour worse (increased stress due to anticipation of pop leads to heightened arousal and therefore heightened reactivity).  I have seen dogs go through this - one in particular started with just a bit of barking, got a mild correction, and has now progressed to a full-on charge, roar, lunge and snap.  You also say you're doing it as soon as she notices the dog - so not only are you making an exceptionally strong connection between dog and correction as it's happening as soon as she sees them, but you are also doing it before she's even done anything - so she's being popped for not doing anything.  This is completely counterproductive.

If her tail is quite high, that suggests again uncertainty, as well as a bit of rudeness/being overbearing - sort of 'I'll look tough so they won't try anything' kind of thing until she knows they're ok.  Aggression does not necessarily follow this - my oldie used to do it, she is friendly but unsure of the initial greeting.

If a dog's coming straight into her she isn't getting a chance to do anything so you won't see it.  That doesn't necessarily mean she's comfortable with it but I would still use it - click (or 'good girl')to mark her not doing anything as the dog approaches, and reward it.  Next time she'll be more likely to be nice as a dog comes near.

Otherwise, I would start at a distance that she's not anything at - before she starts to want/need to bark and so on - and reward anything and everything that isn't rudeness, in particular sniffing the ground, looking at you/away from the other dog, turning away, shaking (as if wet) and licking her lips.  These are all calming signals and will relax both her and the other dog.

Will try that.

Thanks :-)

Good luck with this,dollface.Im grateful for the advice too,as my ten month old collie does this,shes fairly small,but it still sounds agressive,yet shes as soft as grease.Ive also been correcting her  for it,despite realising shes probably a bit wary,as I didnt know what else to do,really,but its not working!Doesnt help that Ive usually got my other 2 collies with me as well,though they dont react to other dogs passing by on leads like she does.

BAT and clicking/marking good stuff can be done for one dog within a group - trust me ;-)  I've had 8 dogs since Tia arrived with her serious on-lead aggression, and with my own health issues I wasn't able to do one-to-one walks with her (just couldn't do her then two other walks besides).

I've still got her happy though, so long as you can control the other dogs (mine are under voice control) it shouldn't be a problem.  It is easier one-to-one if that's possible though.

Thanks nikita,it does make sense.

I don't walk Moose with the boston's at all- since they do like to bark at other dogs, plus they can't walk
nearly as far being 12 and a half and 11 and a half years old- 15-30 minutes seems to do for them. Didn't want her learning off of them.
Guess she learned herself. Hopefully we can brake it out of her cause she does sound very mean :-(
She just gets so excited when she see's other dogs just wants to play- lil big bratt she is!

At daycare they are all off lead and allowed to play- if any show any signs of aggression or not playing very nice so to
speak they are not out with that group. Not all dogs get along. They said Moose gets along with all of them big and small.
Which is def nice to hear :-)

Guess it could be cause she is able to romp and play with the other dogs and she gets frustrated on leash cause she is not allowed
to and has to keep walking- never thought about that Don't want to stop daycare since the socializing is good for her and she
does enjoy it. She has always been like this even before daycare one of the reason we thought we would try daycare. She was
5 months when we 1st put her in. Time and patience I guess is the key and hopefully we will get this worked out.

Thanks :-)

You said in your first post that she growls, barks, hackles up etc and then you said "She just gets so excited when she see's other dogs just wants to play- lil big bratt she is!" I wouldn't interpret what you describe as wanting to play and, if I were walking a dog at the same time, I would give you a wide berth as I would not want my own dog to feel threatened or be put at risk of what she might do. Sorry if this sounds harsh but whilst these could be signs of frustration they could easily be signs of dog-dog aggression as well.

I'm not sure daycare is doing her any favours and if it were me I would be restricting how often I took her (if at all) and would ask that she played mainly with dogs her own size/temperament as, with all due respect, you do not know how she is acting whilst she is there. The staff may say that dogs who don't mix well are kept separately but how do you know if they really do police the play properly and know what to look for in terms of subtle signs of stress, bullying etc? 

Ya I agree if I was walking a dog and heard her I would assume she was real mean the way she acts. Reason why I am asking for help, But she does just want to play.
I think she is frustrated with us because she can't get over to them so she gets all rude! If we gave her a long leash then she is happy because then she could go straight
over to them. But we don't, and I like my dog walking at heal. Think we may have to do some sits and downs in the park while dogs go by and try to keep her focus on us.
Def something we really need to work on and hopefully we can get it out of her. Sadly dog classes don't start up again till late august which I wish went all summer long,
those are a great help as well.

Thank you for your very polite response. I realised after I had posted that what I had written could maybe cause offence so I'm glad it didn't as it was not my wish to criticise, just that some things occurred to me on re-reading the original post.

If it were me, I would change her expectation of what happens on walks. I would try and keep her busy during them so she doesn't see them as an extended play session with other dogs as this may also affect your recall with her and you are sensible enough to know that not all other dogs are friendly or would welcome her advances for whatever reason. If you can 'entertain' her lol then she is more likely to stay with you and not see other dogs as her source of amusement and her reason for going on walks.

Does she like to play fetch? I use fling-rings and extra bouncy balls (the orange chuck-it ones are great) which mine love to chase, fetch and then chase all over again. As collies, this gives them an outlet for their herding instinct and is much more satisfying to them than walks in the woods, on the beach etc. These toys are only used for their exercise and they know as soon as they come out what happens next lol. I know she is only young so you wouldn't need to spend long doing this and always quit whilst the dog is still keen on the toy. If she's not into toys, does she like food? Would she look for a smelly titbit container that you can hide for her to find on walks (in long grass, drop behind you on a walk etc). You would get her used to finding it at home and then build up to using it on walks - for some dogs this really appeals to their scenting instinct and/or their inner foodie. The titbits need to be very high value - eg sausage, ham, chicken, cheese etc so the dog really wants to find it.

I would use the dog classes as an opportunity to train with distractions so she learns to obey you in the presence of other dogs. If you can find something she really wants, this would be the key to getting and keeping her attention. I would just make sure I rewarded frequently and let her know how pleased I was with her as this will help your bond with her. Unfortunately, when we need to keep correcting a dog or are viewed as the reason they can't get to what they want (the other dogs, at the moment), this 'might' also affect the way she perceives you on walks (or she might be completely ignoring you but that's not what you want either).

The final thing that occurs is to me, and it might sound a bit strange, is to use a flexi lead when you walk her and you could then reel her in when you spot another dog. Some dogs are worse on a short lead and if you can anticipate the arrival of another dog and get her to recall in a positive manner, this may make her feel better about being on a lead. Recall her at odd times, not just when you see another dog, or she will get wise to why you are calling her and start to look for the other dog. Reward with high value titbits again, maybe try to keep her behind you while the other dog passes or scatter titbits on the floor for her to hoover up so she is thinking about that, not the other dog. The benefit of this is that she may then start to associate the presence of another dog with getting lots of lovely sweeties lol. I understand this may not be practical, depending on where you walk her but I think you mentioned using a long lead previously so it might be worth a go?

Thanks :-)

Think I'll try the ball- if I can get her focus on me b4 a dog comes into her sight maybe we can have a different outcome. She loves tennis
balls, food- actually anything lol She see's a bug you lost her attention, even a leaf going by haha. She does get distracted easy, something
we are working on.

Will try what you have suggested and hopefully something works .

:-)

Might be worth taking a couple of well loved toys with you so you can keep her interest. I would only do a few minutes worth of play and then let her have some mooching about time (but not too much as you want her to start thinking that walks mean bally-time). Then you can build up, as her focus becomes stronger. The mistake most people make is to go on too long, so the dog loses interest, and this is counter-productive as they will have to work harder next time to get the dog to 'switch' on to the toy. What breed is your girl?

The downside to toy work (and treat work, if not done right in both cases) is that it can end up distracting the dog completely - it doesn't teach them how to behave in that situation, how to respond to the other dog properly, it just takes their mind out of it.  I've seen that happen with both rewards - my River is fabulous with dogs with a ball in her gob but go on a walk without it, and she is extremely rude and quite a bully (she will charge and dogs and roar at them - she doesn't dislike them, she just needs to control everyone in a preemptive fashion).  This is because I haven't fully taught her *what* to do when we come across a dog - just masked the problem by throwing a ball.  It's useful, don't get me wrong, but it is a stopgap measure, not a solution.  Of course I am working on her behaviour without toys now - I've just had other much more pressing problems (such as Soli's dog aggression, then Tia's, then Rai's general stress/worry and so on) so River's gone on the back burner a bit, bless her.  She is making good progress now though.

Likewise I was told recently of a collie who'd been worked around other dogs by a behaviourist (not a very good one, from other things I've been told) with food - just distracting the dog with a treat.  By the time the person stopped working with the dog, they could haveher safely walking right past other dogs with a treat in front of her nose - the dog still eyeballs other dogs without and is still not comfortable (I've met the dog separately so I can confirm that - she's very nervous).  Again, the treat is just taking her mind out of the situation - it's not teaching her what to do.  More like an emotional crutch (the same thing was true of Raine and toys when she first arrived here, without them she was very worried about other dogs for quite some time because she'd never learned how to cope).

And again, another dog who was distracted with balls for his dog aggression issues - worked brilliantly but to this day his social skills are terrible, although he is now on the right track.

I'm not saying don't use them at all - just use them properly, as a reward, not a total distraction.  Teach the dog how to behave appropriately as well.  :-)

Moose is a Great Dane/ Red Nose Pit- but think she is taking the size of the Dane more so. She is way bigger then the Red Nose. Last weighed in at
almost 81 pounds and 26 3/4" at the shoulders. I'll prob weigh her again in June at my vets- plus gets her use to going there all the time.

We used a tennis ball yesterday on our walk, as we walked passed another dog we said watch me, showed the ball which did keep her distracted, she did
start her growling thing but the ball got her focus and her attitude stopped. Hubby bounced it also and said Moose whats this as we walked by- just trying different stuff. By the
end of the walk she just carried her ball in her mouth and not to much of a peep as we walked passed another dog, she gave a lil barky noise but her mouth was full lol. It gave her something to focus on.
She likes to hold the tennis ball and mouth it. Will be trying it again today. Think it also gives her something to keep busy with it in her mouth.

I do no at daycare they are allowed to run and play and prob be boisterous and run up to other dogs- pretty much just being rowdy dogs so to speak. She does play good
with all sized dogs- they have shown us a lot of pics of her playing, plus we have watched through the fence just to see how she is ourselves(worried parents lol).
Very hands on daycare/kennel. I do believe on walks she doesn't understand why she is not allowed
to run up to the other dogs and play- reason for her growling/barking I think is more pointed at the leash cause its holding her back. Once she does meet the other dogs
in the park she wants to play- but yup def comes off scary at 1st I am sure. She is very vocal dog and talks a lot lol almost like she is trying to tell you something.

Def looking forward to our walk around the park again today! :-) Yesterday was nice not having her so rude!

I can see what you're saying but, for me, exercise time is purely that. I don't take my dogs out so that they can meet other dogs - that is done when I first get them, whether they're a puppy, rescue or an older dog. They go out to run, chase and return home far happier than if they'd gone round the block and met two dogs on that walk. If using toys/food works in terms of the op's dog not getting frustrated/wound-up, then I would be very happy with that. There is nothing in the rule books to say that dogs must meet if their temperament/behaviour dictates that they are better off not doing so. There is also the opportunity to use dog club as a place where controlled meetings can take place.

I'm not saying they must meet but in this situation, we have a dog who does not know how to behave appropriately around other dogs to the point of a very strong reaction.  For her benefit more than anyone elses', she needs to learn how to behave appropriately - behaviour like this can be very stressful for the dog doing it (not to mention other dogs, owners, her owner if it escalates).

As I said I'm all for them being used to aid the situation - I merely wanted to make the OP aware that using them purely as a distractor may hinder, not help the situation.  That was my point.

Also, Moose is already going to daycare and interacting with other dogs - so anything that is going to help her do that in a more controlled, polite manner is only going to be of benefit.  She is also very large so for safety's sake, more control can only be a good thing.

My response would still be the same though - turn the energy she is directing towards the other dogs into something more appropriate. Hence the use of toys/food, whatever the dog values highly. If I'm in the presence of other dogs, I want my dogs to focus on me because I am more interesting/useful to them than other dogs. If you wanted to then gradually use this a reward after meeting a dog - on the lead - under control for just a few seconds, then it could be used for that as well. But the emphasis would still be on recalling quickly away from the other dog for her rewards, which the OP would have worked on making more valuable to Moose than meeting that dog.  

Absolutely, I'm the same - I want my dogs to listen and respond to me around dogs, so I make myself more interesting.  My point stands though - toys/food has excellent value for rewarding appropriate value, I just want the OP to be aware that they can cause the dog to completely blank out other dogs and the problem behaviour itself will never improve, just be masked by the focus on the ball.

The owner can have it both ways - a dog that behaves politely and appropriately towards other dogs, but still prefers to be with her owner because the owner is more interesting.  I try to look at it from the 'what if' POV - what if the ball gets lost, what if the owner forgets the treats.  If Moose hasn't been taught how to behave appropriately, then the old unfriendly-looking behaviour could come back in a heartbeat (as it can do with my River, if I don't have a toy with me for whatever reason).  By all means keep her focused on her owner, I do with mine, BUT teach her appropriate social manners with other dogs too because by the sounds of it, she is going to encounter them on walks and being a very big dog, could cause an injury purely by accident if she's very OTT.

marisa,you cheered me up!i hate to say i actively avoid dogs whenever possible,when out with my three,much as id love them to be relaxed around other dogs,its far easier and less stressful(for me,anyway!)They have a good hours free running at least twice a day,and i go out between 5am and 5 30 am as there are fewer people out then-cant do that in winter though,as its dark!I have Jess who I used to thnk was fear aggressive,perhaps she was,but now,going by her glare and stalking towards other dogs,or snapping to chase them off,ive decided shes just a big bully-oddly,at home she seems the underdog!Then theres Gwen whos scared of her own shadow,but doesnt usually cause trouble(but bosses the others at home!),and River,who loves other dogs but rarely gets to meet any exept at dog class,and i do feel bad about that,but she barks,and it sounds agressive,if we meet others,as Ive the others on leads,i dont feel I can let her off in case she scares people!But they have a great time on walks,with play,tearing about and a spot of ball throwing.

> I have Jess who I used to thnk was fear aggressive,perhaps she was,but now,going by her glare and stalking towards other dogs,or snapping to chase them off,ive decided shes just a big bully-oddly,at home she seems the underdog!

TBH that does sound like she's fear aggressive.  River's bullying behaviour is extremely rewarding to her, she likes to split up the other dogs playing so that she can play with one or the other and bullying also gains her toys.  On a walk with a ball she already has a toy, so doesn't need to bully.

But stalking, eyeballing, charge/snap suggests FA to me.

youre probably right,Nikita,Im not very good at reading dogs body language!Shes such a lovely,gentle dog at home.And at training class ive noticed shes more at ease with the dogs that"behave"themselves,and more likely to pull,glare and snap at the more uncontrolled ones,even if theyre friendly,or pups!

Went for our walk yesterday and it was lovely! I actually walked her most of the way- usually hubby does most of the walking
due to her rudeness!
Had my ball in my pocket, as we approached another dog she started to do her usual and I pulled
the ball out said watch me which she did and I gave her the ball. She carried for a little bit then I took it back.
Then we came into contact with about a group of 4 dogs 2 being Golden's  at the water fountain and she looked at them but I said watch me- she put her focus on me
got her ball and was great.
Also I find if the other dog is having no bad posture or growling, barking she is good in return. The Golden's just kinda looked at her like no biggie
so she gave the same attitude back. They kinda sniffed noses as we walked with her ball in her mouth and it was a slow pace walk by, all were happy.

Def love the ball idea and it gives her something to put her energy into and is slowly learning its walk time not play time with other dogs.
When she is good no attitude she will be allowed to meet and sniff.

On the way home someone was on a bike with their pitt who started to act up- Moose looked hubby pulled out the tennis ball so b4 she got to make any noise he said
watch me and she got her ball as a reward. The pitt on the other hand the guy had to ride his bike faster to keep him from going in front. I am sure if she
would have acted up the pit prob would of made a dash in front of the bike. But it all went good-

Now we can go back to taking turns walking her, me part way and hubby the other part- so much more pleasurable for all of us and she
don't look like this monster on the other end of the leash.

Took her to daycare today cause we have stuff to do and don't want her kenneled all day- but then she got all hyper barking ect,
once inside she stopped and was very happy to see everyone. So it def is excitement of wanting to play the way she acts- not mean
just sounds and looks mean.

So far very pleased with our progress
thank you :-) Now off to buy some more balls lol

Edit: To say she has to give us eye contact b4 getting her reward and she doesn't get to carry it the whole way.
maybe about 5 feet or so then we grab it back. If the ball is in her mouth while walking passed other dogs
her excitement is put into the ball and she is focused on the ball in her mouth not the other dogs lol we
have tried both. Even giving her the ball when no dogs are around so she don't think its only something
she gets when another dog goes by.

Im glad youve found a solution,I bet you ll be able to phase it out as she gets older,if you wanted to,but no real sweat if not!Well done!

Ya def hope to phase the ball out- Thanks!

I am very thankful for the help I got on here, now hopefully we can have much more enjoyable
walk with out her being rude!

:-)

You can come here and sort my River out next,heehee!

Lol :-)