Hi All,

Sorry for another question! Nando is quite big (A 10 month male GSD...!) He is the friendliest dog you could meet, however his recall is understandably non-existant so all 'off-lead' walks are on a recall line.

Owners of small dogs avoid him like the plague, and the added fact that he has a long line on most of the time makes it very hard for him to play with other dogs.

How do I continue his socialisation if noone is willing to let him meet other dogs? He gets walked with another dog and gets plenty of play time with the dog walker's puppy. He is usually walked on his own because he is bouncy around other dogs but the dog walker has done quite a bit of training to get him to behave nicely around other dogs and he is really coming on, to the stage where he can go for pavement walks with other dogs. Of course, when *I* walk him, having not done any of that training it goes out the window and he'll pull me to see another dog.

I can't help but think he is being under socialised because of it. It's not apparent in his behaviour but I feel that perhaps he will miss out on an important lesson of how to play like an adult dog.

Any suggestions?

Hi Josh, you are right, he needs to spend time socialising with as many dogs as possible. I too have big dogs and it really was a challenge to socialise them. Even though I am sympathetic to big dogs, I would avoid you as described in your post, as I wouldn't know why you have him on a long lead, and to me, good manners say give dogs on leash space. Even if I could see your dog is friendly I wouldn't want to allow my dog to play as yours might be too full on, over exciteable, or tie you up in knots on the lead.
The things I did to socialise my young bouncy thugs was organise 'play dates' with other dog owners I met at training classes (are you going to any yet?), and i made friends with local dog walkers who were walking groups of dogs and tagged along on their outings. It is really important that you aim to mix with a range of types of dogs and a range of ages etc. The biggest challenge for many young dogs is learning to calm it down and older dogs are excellent at teaching this. If they only mix with other dogs to have crazy play sessions then they will assume all dogs want to charge around like that, so while play sessions have their place, make sure you get in some more sedate walks where he has to plod along with another calm dog who will set a good example.
Its great that the dog walker is helping you out with this, but really you should view her input as a side bonus to all the socialisation you are doing with him, for the reasons you have already experienced.
Persevere, the more effort you put in at this stage the more laid back he'll be as a mature dog.

Perhaps try stopping and talking to some people you pass on your walk, that way they will get to know your boy and see he means no harm. There is an old guy who had a huge GSD female and when i was speaking to someone with 2 yorkies they were telling me how they dont go anywhere near them as they dont trust the dog. Well a while after that i was walking my nabours westy and mini snouser(sp?) and they were off the lead and normaly good but the westy took off and ran up the the GSD that i hadnt seen come in the field. The GSD was pulling its elderly owner and choaking its self compleatly phocused on the westy comming towards it with me in toe calling her thinking i would have to take her back to the owner with a bite out of her. But it turned out the GSD loved smaller dogs and was compleatly fine. After that they would often run around playing tougher. If the westy hadent run off and i had the chance to speek to the owner and see that the gsd was fine i proberly would have just advoided her. Sadly she is now very old and doesnt like my pup so i now have to advoid her. If i regulay pass someone on our normal work ill stop and ask about the dog and if they are ok ill let my girl play with them.

I had the same with my friend who has small dogs and wont let them go near big dogs, she was up mine as we were going to go to ring craft that evening and she came out on my walk with her dog but as soon as a lab i normaly walk with came over she picked up her dog and was carrying it for ages untill after i told her over and over agian that the dog is very calm and friendly and wouldnt touch her she then put her down and all was fine.

> How do I continue his socialisation if noone is willing to let him meet other dogs?

Hi parrysite. We have large working gp dogs and toy dogs here. Even though mine mix happily at home, I do feel wary of other people's large breed dogs around my little ones. Even though they may not mean them any harm, accidents can easily happen so I don't let my toys mix with other people's big bouncy dogs unless it is in a controlled situation. I find Obedience classes are ideal for this. Each handler works with their own dog and off-lead work is carefully managed. Classes are arranged according to the stage the dogs are at. I've taken both breeds along to our local classes. It does get them used to behaving sensibly around other dogs, and listening to the handler. It also makes me practice in between classes!

I expect there is a canine society near you where you could take him along to do some basic obedience, it should help.

Yes, it is important to socialise your dog, as a puppy hopefully he got to run and play with other dogs. :-)

As a large adolescent, does he need to run and play-fight with other dogs? IMO no, he doesn't. :-) As an adolescent he is much more likely to have negative interactions now anyway, he is out of puppy license and at the age where he will be told off, sometimes those tellings off will be vicious and not leave him with a good impression of other dogs, which may cause fear aggression etc, so keep him on that long line and protect him. :-)

You need to think about why pups and adolescents need to play-fight and rough and tumble, it is done as a way for them to gage their stamina, standing, brawn and intelligence against other dogs to establish that future pecking order. It is important if growing up in a pack for this to continue, however if you have a lone domestic dog it is not needed. :-)

So although you may feel he is missing out and although he may instinctually wish to continue, it is of no real relevance, he can socialise with other dogs very well on line meeting and greeting and reading body language just as well, with happy interactions where he is taught to sit nicely and approach in good manners he will learn that other dogs are no threat and as an adult will be uninterested as most adult dogs are.

Once adults they are established in their standing so no need for this type of play, the energy he has needs to be re-focussed with retrieve and training/working games and bonding with you, not necessarily as his instincts tell him, you are his family and the person he needs to bond with, he does not have a pack or need to prove his worth, as an adult he will feel no need to.

I know you feel he may be missing out, but he isn't, between you and the dog walker if not put in a negative situation with another dog he will grow up clam and happy when meeting other dogs.

Just continue with calm meet and greets on that long line and refocus all that testosterone on fun with you. :-)

Even though mine mix happily at home, I do feel wary of other people's large breed dogs around my little ones. Even though they may not mean them any harm, accidents can easily happen so I don't let my toys mix with other people's big bouncy dogs unless it is in a controlled situation. I find Obedience classes are ideal for this.

Exactly. It really does not matter at all how friendly a large dog is towards a little one, the thump of a paw over the back in play can kill in seconds and I never go near large dogs I don't know with my toys. My toys get plenty of socialisation with large dogs at home so they all love them anyway, but dogs I don't know are totally different. You only need to put yourself into the dog's situation as well. Imagine you weigh 2 kgs and somebody who weighs 40 kgs and is ten times taller than you looms over you -it's scary, whether they appear friendly or not. In such a situation many little dogs will get scared and as such will snap at the big dog out of fear, just to tell it to go away, and then the large dog has instantly learnt that small dogs aren't to be trusted. Far better to just go to training classes and get the dogs used to walking around other dogs of different sizes. It's not just small dogs either -my Malinois often get a bit unsure if they happen to come across Saint Bernards at shows as they aren't used to seeing such large dogs.

Carringtoni particularly agree with your last paragraph. Having made the mistake with my brooke of encouraging dog play to avoid dog to dog problems having expeirienced them before - now have to work To refocus brooke on me not the dogs

r

You need to start booking playdates like a new york mom!  I always get a tight re-call as soon as.  It's my only rule that I NEED from my dogs.  I don't mind that they climb over my furniture or wreck my garden or ignore a sit command but I demand re-call everytime.  You need to up your rewards for Nando to want to come back to you.  All dogs are different though.  One of mine loves food so she's easy, another likes balls so that's easy too and a couple do anything for a good girl pat on the head!  But when they are pups, you need to make yourself more interesting that everything else in the park.  I've did the whole 'examine a blade of grass like it's the most interesting thing ever' and the running like a loon in the other direction.  Lots of yelling and jumping and running will soon get your boy following you(and the men in white coats too!lol).
Once you have better control, you will notice Nando behaving better, which in turn will lead to more dog owners being willing to let their dogs play.
I have a large garden so I tend to host the playdates and I invite lots of doggy friends over.  My old girl gets to come outside too as she loves nothing more than to get right in the middle of the game and grump at everyone and god help any pup that stands up to her or ignores her.  She soon teaches them manners!
Look for local fenced in areas like tennis courts or schools and arrange to met other dog owners for a play.
Join a breed forum and arrange local met-ups.
Get to dog classes and arrive 15 mins early so he can have a play before working and then afterwards, stand chatting outside so he can have a rumble about some more. 
It's not about long plays either.  Short meets are just as good too.

Carringtons post is spot on..

He doesn't need to run and play with strange dogs, and thats not just an opinion.. its been studied and dogs do NOT need the company or interaction with other dogs - its us humans that like to see dogs playing with other dogs, and expect dogs to be friendly and playful with other dogs they have never met before.

What your dog NEEDS is to respond to you and desire to be with you and work with you above all else.

After that a dog needs to be comfortable and relaxed in the presence of other dogs.

After that, well anything else is 'nice' but not necessary - ideally your dog will be fine to be introduced to any dog you wish to introduce him to, and ok to walk alongside a strange dog without feeling the need to interact or behave fearfully or in a frustrated manner.

The problem with the advice 'socialise him with lots and lots and lots of other dogs' is that you end up as I think you currently are doing, seeing every walk as an opportunity to meet, greet (and from his point of view, physically and mentally test every dog) other dogs - and when that becomes the goal, the imperative to work with you and bond strongly with you is lost, it gets put on the back burner.

I realise a lot of the above might sound draconian and 'mean' but the reality is really no different to your own - YOU wouldnt expect to rush over to a total stranger and start pushing them around or getting physical with them in any sense. You wouldn't like it if strangers always did that to you either.  But you can form social circles with the people you meet at work, in various hobbies etc...

So can your dog, so then  your dog is fine with the dogs at dog club, hes ok with relatives dogs and maybe the neighbours dogs, or a group of dogs  you regularly meet and walk wtih at the park - but he DOESNT feel the need to dash off to meet every dog that hoves into view, because you make it much more rewarding to stay with you, and you set up a cast iron habit of waiting to be introduced before interacting with another dog.

And if everyone did this, we would not have any dog to dog aggression problems!

Thanks for your responses. It's certainly given me a lot to think about, in particular Carrington and theemx have given me a perspective I didn't think of before!

I really want to find him some sort of class. I have enquired to loads in the area and they have never got back to me with dates etc. To be honest I think when they hear that I'm a 20 year old lad with a GSD they think I must be a 'status dog' owner. To look at me you'd know I wasn't some thug but over the phone you'd have no way of telling!

when they hear that I'm a 20 year old lad with a GSD

They've never asked my age - only my dogs lol - whereabouts are you I'm sure someone on here can recommend a good class :)

I've never actually given my age- I just feel as though I sound 'young' on the phone! LOL. I'm on Wirral.

Try this link: here

Hi
I don't know where you are but you should look at the BAGSD website there may be a club near you. They certainly won't turn you away just because you are a young lad, they will only be too pleased to help you.

Ursula

Be careful with the BAGSD clubs. Some still use the old-fashioned ways of training dogs (choke chains, physically pushing dogs into the sit/down positions etc). Look for a club that offers positive methods so the dog enjoys training and therefore is also more likely to respond when he is off the lead because you have built a positive relationship with the dog, not because he has been trained by brute force.