I walk the dogs on a piece of rough ground. Dogs are allowed to be off lead there.There are some houses backing  on to the land. This  morning one of my dogs chased a rabbit and it went into the garden of one of these houses and of course the dog followed. The owner was obviously in the garden and shouted crossly and said that dogs should be on leads and to keep him out of the garden. He did come back as soon as I called him but this chap was very abusive.

I don't actually let my dogs wander aimlessly over peoples gardens. While this garden does have a hedge round it, it is a conifer hedge that is about 20 feet high but with no branches for the first couple of feet from the ground meaning that dogs (and rabbits) can just run into it without noticing. Surely if he is that worried about keeping dogs out of his garden it is his responsibility to fence it properly?

I'd be interested as unfortunately this can happen to em at our country park where some of the new housing gardens are far from dog proof, and I can't let our Jozi off lead at all as she raids the food waste bins.

As far as I was aware it is up to the garden owner to ensure their garden is livestock proof.

I think its other way round.  its dogs owners responsibility to control dog and keep off other peoples property. not the property owners responsibility to fence out other peoples dogs.

Its the dog owner's responsibility to keep their dog under control, the same would apply to him if his dog escaped his inadequately fenced garden. Annoying but true.

but does that apply when bordering land where livestock (including dogs) is allowed free access? 

It's the main reason my lot don't go off lead much these days as it is too easy for them to step through (to them non existent) boundary before you have a chance to tell them no.  Crafty so and so's are inlcined to do it when I am 'picking up' and distracted enough for them to have a quick nosey.

It is up to the Dog owner to keep their pet under control.

I once lived in a village that had a covenant on it saying that ALL front gardens had to be kept open plan with NO boundary fences allowed...this includeded boundaries made up of Hedges, Rose bushes or any other type of Shrub. Which sounds lovely, all neatly mown lawns etc but in reality it was a nightmare as there are always those who let there dogs run free off lead to crap all over the place and then walk off and leave it.

Barbara, up here, that's the farmers responsibility.  He needs to adequately fence his land to keep his stock in.  I know this because some sheep escaped from his field once and they ended up in neighbours gardens.  My big lad was a terrific hunter and had to be leashed wherever sheep where.  Well, he scaled a 7ft fence and got out the kennel, cleared a 6ft fence without touching and killed one of the sheep on my neighbours doorstep.  I was out at the time and when I came home, the police had cordened off the entire street! Apparently he was un-happy about getting taken away from his 'dinner'.  I was so mad that by the time he saw me, he jumped up and ran home, knowing I was angry.  The farmer came to collect the sheep and I told the police that I would pay him for it as I felt it was more my fault than anyones but the police told me it was the farmers fault as he nneds to keep his stock in and safe.
Nothing ever came of the incident except my very red face when cleaning my neighbours step!

> Its the dog owner's responsibility to keep their dog under control

I had kind of thought that might be the case unfair as it sounds. But what recourse does the householder have should one of my dogs stray into his garden again? He was shouting about calling the police and prosecutions etc. I will be finding somewhere else to walk for a while as he really frightened me, but I don't want to avoid this area forever as it is a very nice place to walk the dogs.

The householder would be allowed to make 'reasonable efforts' to remove a dog straying onto his property. The police wouldn't be interested unless it happened repeatedly and the dog caused damage.

I imagine that lots of dogs are wandering into his garden, maybe even pooing occasionally? Hence the excessive rage. If he has any common sense he'll put a fence up to protect his property rather than spending money taking a trespassing dog's owner to court. As the others say I doubt the police would be interested as its a Civil matter.

I hate people like this - his complete overreaction to a minor infraction leaves you feeling stressed. Miserable sod.

If it ever happens again I'd shrug and say call the police then. Someone shouting abuse at you and behaving in a threatening manner is committing an offence.

The police and courts wouldn't waste time on a dog venturing into a garden for a few moments without causing any harm, even if technically a law has been breached.

>Someone shouting abuse at you and behaving in a threatening manner is committing an offence.<br />

I'm glad that you made that comment, as my initial reaction was that it was out of order to intimidate - the OP was clearly upset.

>I hate people like this - his complete overreaction to a minor infraction leaves you feeling stressed. Miserable sod.

Suppose his pet, or child, or grandchild, has in the past been chased or bitten by a dog straying into his garden? Would he be over-reacting when another comes in? Maybe he's been bitten in the past and is afraid of dogs? We don't know the background to this.

>If it ever happens again I'd shrug and say call the police then. Someone shouting abuse at you and behaving in a threatening manner is committing an offence.

It won't happen again because the OP will prevent her dog trespassing. :-) If she does let it happen, after being given a warning, then the householder has every right to be more annoyed than before.

As JG says, we have no idea of the background to this incident - there could be a dog phobia or previous bad experiences involved.  I have to agree that it's the owner's responsibility - and I say that as an owner in a similar position, or at least I was for years.

On one of my walks there was an unfenced garden - same sort of thing, tall conifer hedge but no branches for the first 2 or 3 feet so very easy for a dog to go in.  Which Remy has done several times, as the homeowner leaves food out for birds/hedgehogs/cats.  I've had to go in and get him once, and the last time it happened, the homeowner was in the garden and helped me get him back (by then the gap wasn't big enough for me to get in).

I've spent 5 years trying to train Remy not to go in there but finally had to just give up and keep him on lead as soon as we got within 50 feet because he would wait til I wasn't watching for a split second then sneak in.  The reward has just been too great the few times he's managed it!

I'm glad to say that in this case, the homeowner has finally put a fence in - Remy still tries to get in there every time we pass though.

Despite that - and despite me grumbling to myself many times that he should fence the bloody garden :-P - I've been under no illusions that it's been my problem all along.  If I were on the other side of it, I'd be blaming the owner (although I'd also make the garden secure so it couldn't happen again).

Suppose his pet, or child, or grandchild, has in the past been chased or bitten by a dog straying into his garden? Would he be over-reacting when another comes in

If this sort of thing had happened, the owner of the garden would surely have fenced off the garden to prevent it happening again. He lives next to an area used by dog walkers so the risk of it happening is quite high while his garden is insecure.

I didn't suggest it wasn't the dog owners responsibility - if you read my post I refer to it as a minor infraction (which I believe it is as the dog came back immediately when called). However, when this sort of this happens the response often home owner should be reasonable - they can indicate they aren't happy without becoming abusive.

Society only really works if we interact with each other tolerably and reasonably without going off the deep end over every irritation.

And I still think anyone threatening and verbally abusing another person falls more foul of the law than a trespassing dog.

And yes, I'm sure she won't let it happen again, but I'm also sure the man has given her a sleepless night and great upset over what should have been a very minor incident, so I know where my sympathies lie.

>Society only really works if we interact with each other tolerably and reasonably without going off the deep end over every irritation.

Personally I think calling the man a 'miserable sod' and that you 'hate people like him' isn't exactly tolerant and reasonable, but each to their own! :-)

I'm not interacting with him - he will be blissfully unaware of my response to his abusive behaviour.

The trouble is, Toon, we have no right to own dogs so society is already starting off by tolerating more from us than we do in return and you, therefore, also have to think about your responsibility to other dog owners not to contribute to society turning its back on dog ownership all together or at least applying much more restrictions.

Stooge - that's a nonsense post. We all tolerate things from other people all the time. The OP was behaving perfectly responsibly - she recalled her dog immediately when the situation arose. She shouldn't feel she has let some dog owning brotherhood down just because the owner decided to bully and intimidate her.

I wasn't thinking of the OP at all, accidents happen and as you say she reacted appropriately. I was responding to your advise if it should happen again.  That is why I addressed my post to you not the OP.

I stand by that advice. She should not fear the police being called in this situation. Infanct, if someone was threatening me and shouting abuse in this situation I'd be tempted to call them myself.

>I think its other way round.  its dogs owners responsibility to control dog and keep off other peoples property. not the property owners responsibility to fence out other peoples dogs.

I agree with this.  I have spend £k's on ensuring my garden is dog proof so my dogs can't escape.  This has involved losing the use of the front garden so the dogs don't encounter the postie/delivery men etc,  7' secure fencing all round, padlocks on the gate and ensuring that any random visitors can't get through the garage into the back garden. 

Yet despite all of this, one of my neighbours dogs got through a miniscule gap into my garden.  If my dogs had got hold of the dog and injured it I would not have held myself responsible as it is their job to contain their dogs in their garden i.e. out of mine.  Thankfully I have great neighbours so they sorted it on their side and problem solved.

One of the footpaths I walk my dogs on has people's gardens backing on to it. Someone has installed two ponies in their garden and put an electric fence round it. The fence is high so my dogs could easily get in, so this is somewhere else they can no free range. This is a garden, albeit a big one, so regardless of whose responsibility it is I would have thought it unwise not to fence them in better, rather then just have a strip of wire.

Years ago I lived in a row of detached houses in the country. the gardens however adjoined. My neighbours moved and the new people got half a dozen pet sheep...bloody nightmare ! My dogs had never attempted to go nextdoor and the fencing was adequate to deter them in normal circumstances,but maybe not with sheep to tempt them. I had to fork out for more sturdy, high fencing and nextdoor had the cheek to complain it was to high!....we moved :)

haha, I have sheep on one side which was definitely a prompt for ensuring the fencing is secure.  Dead dog isn't part of my plan.

I think it boils down to it being the responsibility of the owner of an animal, whether dog, horse, sheep, cow etc, not to allow it to stray, rather than the responsibility of others to prevent it straying onto their land.

>I'm not interacting with him

No, but you're advising someone else how you they think they should interact with him; and it's not with tolerance!

> so regardless of whose responsibility it is I would have thought it unwise not to fence them in better, rather then just have a strip of wire.

The cost could be prohibitive especially if they rotate their grazing and may have several areas.  I think I would resent that if it was not my responsibility :)

end result if just becomes too much hassle to allow your dogs free running even where they are allowed off lead, becaus of what if's, and so mine are generally nowadays (last 5 years) on lead outside my own home.

To Jeangenie -
Yes, they should not tolerate threats and abuse. That's where I'd draw the line. I have certainly not advised the poster to respond in kind - in fact my advised response was pretty moderate given what she had put up with.

Yes, I agree that it is the dog owners responsibility to have control of their dog, but obviously I sympathise greatly with you  doodlebug dogs are dogs and a chase of a smaller mammal is often difficult to foresee, I think today many dog walkers have to go on dog walks with their hearts in their mouths afraid of whether it will be a nice walk or one of fear and foul.

Many people would be annoyed if a dog/s ran into their garden, but tbh most would make sure one couldn't, if they lived in an area where dogs often walked past and rabbits were around, but sometimes people think they should not have to protect themselves from loose dogs in areas like this, that too is within their rights, not to have to worry about such things.

I would also be very upset if someone shouted and ranted at me, dog walkers are often left feeling helpless at times like this, as places to walk are becoming less and less limited.

Somehow today people expect dogs to act like humans, there often is little to no tolerance.

Doodlebug, unfortunately you have someone with no tolerance here, so if I were you I would always lead your dog until after that particular house to avoid this happening again, as you just can't guarantee it, and knowing dogs they always like to re-visit somewhere where a rabbit has been seen and chased they don't forget so that garden may well be of interest again to your dog.

It's not a terrible crime for your dog to commit, however the owner will upset you greatly so not worth another altercation.  Just pop him on a long line or lead until well past this house. :-)

I agree Stooge but I'm not sure back gardens that ajoin footpaths should be grazing ground ? It is another row of houses, deatached with big gardens.

> I'm not sure back gardens that ajoin footpaths should be grazing ground ?

I don't think there any rules against it are there?  There are lots of footpaths that go through grazing land.  Certainly, in those instances it would be up to the dog owner to control their dog rather than the land owner fence off the path.

I live in a rural area and it is common accepted practice that it is the farmers responsibility to provide fencing to keep his own livetock in his own land.  However, if sheep, cows, horses etc are retained by a couple of strands of plain wire fixed across a series of posts then he is doing what is required.

It is not up to the farmer to keep everyones else's dogs off his land - that's the responsibility of dog owners.

>I once lived in a village that had a covenant on it saying that ALL front gardens had to be kept open plan with NO boundary fences allowed...this includeded boundaries made up of Hedges, Rose bushes or any other type of Shrub. Which sounds lovely, all neatly mown lawns etc but in reality it was a nightmare as there are always those who let there dogs run free off lead to crap all over the place and then walk off and leave it.

The street I live in has open-planned front lawns. I have no problem stopping my dog from even stepping foot onto any one elses front lawn when we walk down the road, but annoyingly, other people can't seem to stop thier dogs from taking a dump on my lawn I'm sure they wouldn't be pleased to find a pile of Buster droppings outside thier front door!!

I agree it is the dog-owners responsibility to keep thier dogs out of other peoples gardens. I think the man the OP encountered was rather OTT in his reactions, but as others have said, he may have already put up with plenty of dogs getting into his garden/fouling on his garden so had had enough.

I've had a dog appear in my garden - it was a bit of a shock to see a dog in there that wasn't mine! My garden is set up to keep Buster in, but due to the size of him there are plenty of little gaps that small animals can get through and a little terrier from the next street fround such a gap. I popped a lead on her and took her back home, (a 5 min walk/10 mins both ways, as I'm not small enough to go the quick route like she did) and I didn't even get a thank you from the owner!

Its the dog owner's responsibility to keep their dog under control

I had kind of thought that might be the case unfair as it sounds. But what recourse does the householder have should one of my dogs stray into his garden again? He was shouting about calling the police and prosecutions etc. I will be finding somewhere else to walk for a while as he really frightened me, but I don't want to avoid this area forever as it is a very nice place to walk the dogs.

I'm afraid others won't agree with you that it is unfair for owners to take responsibility to keep their own dogs under control and off other people's land.  That should only be expected and dogs that roam into other peoples land are tresspassing where they have no right to be.  The DDA was established to take action against dogs out of control in a public place or on private land where they had no right to be.  I agree that safe places to allow dogs to run off lead are becoming fewer and fewer but that's not the fault of other land owners who don't want loose dogs in their garden or on their agricultural land.

I mentioned my run in with this chap to another dog walker this morning and apparently he is well known in the area for his attitude to dogs. He undoubtedly does get other dogs straying into his garden because of the lack of fencing and its position. However he waits in the garden just to ambush straying dogs and then apart from hurling abuse at the owners he also throws rocks and stones at the dogs!

The whole situation seems stupid to me. Especially as you could solve his problem totally with £50 for a roll of sheep fencing and a mornings work. He wouldn't even notice it from inside his garden. I am almost tempted to do it myself except he would probably have me arrested for maliciously making his life easier :)

Sorry, but I can't see it is his responsibility to pay out £50. 
He certainly should not be throwing stones or being abusive but it is his business if he wishes to observe his own property and the real responsibility lies with the people allowing their dogs to stray.

Stooge wrote

> The trouble is, Toon, we have no right to own dogs so society is already starting off by tolerating more from us than we do in return

Well actually Stoge I do have as much right to own my dogs as other people have to own cats or horses or to have children, or practise religion or to have a particular sexual orientation.  I think it is about time we dog owners stopped trying to appease the rest of the world by bowing down to the ever increasing ad unreasonable demands. Society accepts that some things are dangerous such as roads and rivers and electricity and knives. Dogs are far less harmfull than most of these when misused and do a lot of good in our society.

Anyway I am digressing. this probably should be the subject of a separate thread but as I have to work today I haven't the time.

> Sorry, but I can't see it is his responsibility to pay out £50.

No I am not saying it is his responsibility, but as the problem seems to be causing him so much stress then I would have thought it might be worth it just to make his life easier. but then again maybe he just likes throwing stones and intimidating people

> I think it is about time we dog owners stopped trying to appease the rest of the world by bowing down to the ever increasing ad unreasonable demands.

I don't think keep them off someones property is in the least unreasonable.
If we don't all act responsibly I think we will see more and more restrictions regarding dog ownership.  It looks like more is on the way already.
  Parents are held responsible if their children behave antisocially, don't go to school etc and there are regulations regarding horses.
  Cats seem to get off scott free though :)

Actually the responsibility of forking out for fencing belongs to one person only and that is the land owner! If he chooses not to have fencing, for aesthetic reasons or for financial reasons... he is going to have to personally guard his garden from intruders as he is doing. Or maybe some geese would do the trick?! It is common sense to enclose areas we want to protect which is why we put doors on our houses and padlocks on our sheds. If someone failed to have a front door and complained about the opportunist thieves that kept turning up not many would have sympathy when they chose to spend time guarding their home when a simple door would do the trick. That doesn't put the thieves in the right, or the owners of the wandering dogs, but it doesn't put Mr Grumpy's sensibility in the best light either. Perhaps he enjoys the drama of confronting dog owners?! Luckily I doubt the trespassing dogs are going to steal from him or spend long enough there to dig anything up but I do think he is at risk of a dog or owner reacting badly to his confrontational behaviour so I hope he manages to sort out some suitable fencing for everyone's sake!

It is the responsibilty of the owner of the dog to have control and not allow the dog to go on land which is classed as private property( I would class my house and land private )

It is trespass and you would struggle to defend yourself if the man decided to make a complaint to the police if he felt strongly enough about it. Even though he was verbally abusive ( he was wrong )I would suggest that the best course of action was to recall the dog,apologise and walk away.

In future if walking in the same area if the dog cannot be fully controlled then the dog should be put on a lead.

>If someone failed to have a front door and complained about the opportunist thieves that kept turning up

But he has a boundary hedge - it's not as if his back garden is open-plan! And even if it was, the point is that it's the responsibility of others not to trespass, not someone else's responsibility to prevent them doing so.

The whole situation seems stupid to me. Especially as you could solve his problem totally with £50 for a roll of sheep fencing and a mornings work. He wouldn't even notice it from inside his garden.  

I moved into a detached house at the top of a private drive with 2 other neighbours sharing the right of way.  The chap at the bottom had only had his house built there some 10 years earlier.  My house had been there for 300 years!  This neighbour found and kept a stray  german shepherd x collie which he allowed out loose to roam around his garden and paddock which adjoined my drive and front garden.  This dog came into my land and crapped on my garden every day. 

We asked him nicely to keep his dog enclosed on his own property as it kept fouling on our front lawn.  He refused.  The dog then started coming upto my house (across 250' of my drive and garden) and began annoying my dogs while in their own back garden by stalking and barking at my side gates.  We again went to see the neighbour and asked him to keep his dog under control and off our property.  He ignored us. The drive had always been open as it served the access route to the property higher up the drive than us.  We spoke to these neighbours who appreciated the problem this dog caused and they agreed for us to put gates across the drive (at a cost to us of £300) where it came into our land.  This meant they, like us, had to stop and open and close gates behind us everytime we left the property on foot or by car in order to keep this dog out.

Still the dog was loose.  We then had delivery people complain that when they came to get out of their vehicles to open the gates to our property they were 'barked and  lunged at' by this GSDx and so they refused to get out to open the gates.  They would sit at the gates and beep their horns until I heard and went down to open the gates for them to save them getting out of their vehicles.  Obviously that was fine when I was home but for those times when a delivery came when I was out and the dog was loose we had to have a proper box fitted on the gate post do that they could reach from the van window and 'post' stuff in the box.  More expense for us.

The refuse men refused to collect our rubbish if the gates weren't left open on collection day (with no time set for collection it meant gates open all day) and still this dog crapped on my garden and caused a nuisance to us.

Eventually, it went to court and this man was forced to keep his dog under control as a) it was classed as an unacceptable nuisance to people with a right to use the Right of Way to the properties and b) it was tresspassing on private property where it had no right to be.

Why should I and others have to face big bills and daily inconvenience to keep other people's dogs off our land?  Although I don't agree that this person should be abusive as the OP reported, I do agree that every owner is responsible for thier own dog and if they can't keep it from roaming on others land then it should not be off-lead in the first place. 

> I agree it is the dog-owners responsibility to keep their dogs out of other peoples gardens. I think the man the OP encountered was rather OTT in his reactions, but as others have said, he may have already put up with plenty of dogs getting into his garden/fouling on his garden so had had enough.
>
>

I'd agree, but we are not speaking of the street in this case.  If your garden backs onto an area where dogs are allowed to be off lead (he told the owner the dog should be on lead) then it is obvious if the garden is not dog proofed, occasionally a dog will come into the garden when the owner doesn't notice, or too slow with a command, and if trained will be recalled straight back.  This is all an owner can really do until they become aware of the danger.

Now if you walk a footpath in agricultural or grazing land you know that you may encounter livestock or crops and that you need to keep the dog on lead, or strictly on the path.

As I have said unfortunately the new houses along the side of our large country park where the dogs had lovely walks for years, mean it is now a no go area, as it's too sad to go there any more and have to keep them on lead, as I can't guarantee that one of them won't do a nosey into the gardens, especially with the temptation of the food waste containers that only need a nose under the handle to open.

I think location is irrelevant.  A lot of housing/domestic dwellings have conditions written into the sale/rent agreement prohibiting any kind of boundaries being put around the 'garden' or property to leave the area 'open plan'.

These people have as much right to have their property 'dog free' as I do and unfortunate though it is for dog owners to appreciate, the onus is on THEM to keep their dog off other people's property and not for owners of gardens and land to keep unwanted dogs out.  Sorry if that upsets anyone but I say that as an owner of half a dozen dogs.

I agree that it should be the responsibility of the dog owner to stop their dog straying onto property.The house owners response may have been OTT but he may have had countless dogs doing the same thing.

> I walk the dogs on a piece of rough ground. Dogs are allowed to be off lead there

Doodlebug, I agree with the others that it is your responsibility to prevent your dogs going onto private land - which you'd normally do.  However, we'd usually expect most landowners to accept the odd accident or mistake and, even if grumpy and intolerant, to refrain from verbal abuse.  On the flip side though he may have experienced 'persistent offenders' and could genuine reasons for not fencing his land and may not even be allowed to.  In this case it seems sensible to avoid walking there if you can - it's not worth getting into a difficult situation if it can be avoided...

In the meantime though it might be worth double checking the access rights on the adjacent land.  Is it council owned land?  If he is insistent that dogs should be on a lead is it possible that he has checked it out and knows he's right?  If you Google your 'local authority name + dog control orders' you should be able to view the most up to date information for your region.  Many councils have updated these over the last two years.  If the owners of these properties have restrictions on fencing and they can prove that dogs off lead are a nuisance they can apply to the council for a DCO and, after a period of consultation, it may well be granted.  Many councils seem to like DCO's!

>If we don't all act responsibly I think we will see more and more restrictions regarding dog ownership

Exactly. It's dogs being allowed to cause a nusiance to others that will cause massive restrictions.

I personally keep my dog on a long line at all times, as a way to help stop the sight of him frightening others (don't want him shot for being loose as happened to poor Freya the mastiff some years back), while I appreciate that others do allow thier dogs off-lead, those dogs MUST be under control which means they should not be permitted to stray onto peoples property so they need a solid recall under distraction. It seems simple to me, if you can't be 100% sure that your dog will return to you at any given time, then you keep it on a lead/long-line where needed or stay away from places it is not permitted to stray into.

"I don't think there any rules against it are there?  There are lots of footpaths that go through grazing land.  Certainly, in those instances it would be up to the dog owner to control their dog rather than the land owner fence off the path"

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if there are rules against having horses or sheep in a built up area in your backgarden. This is not grazing land and whilst it is my responsibility to keep my dogs out etc, and I do, I think it is the height of irresponsibility to keep livestock in a heavy populated area ..having dogs attack your livestock is not something I would want regardless of whose fault it was.