Turns out her husband (and two sons) don't really want a bichon frise 100% so we're back to the drawing board.

They want:

- a small breed
- good with children
- not in need of huge amounts of exercise
- coats which need high maintenance are fine

they don't want:

- a large dog
- an adult dog
- a terrier

They are not in any rush but I don't think they'd want to spend over 400 which puts them in a bit of a pickle I THINK though the breeds I'm familiar with are very different so I'm quite lost when it comes to toys and standard pricing for them.

ok starting off what about a sheltie?  they love exercise, but don't mind if they don't always get huge amounts.. they love to join in, if you get the right breeder they're very outgoing and lovely nature, their coats need some attention but it's not arduous, I do mine on my lap whilst I'm watching the TV.

they're not a toy breed, but should be small enough :-)

I adore the look of shelties but would have presumed that like any collie breed they need a lot of physical and mental stimulation? Unlike a toy breed who will walk to the shop and the park kinda thing...

I don't think they'd want to spend over 400 which puts them in a bit of a pickle

I'd say more than a pickle, depending on breed they may only need to pay 100-200 more, but they are leaving themselves wide open to BYB's, puppy farmers and people who do not do the required health tests, if they wish to pay under £400 for a pup, they will seriously be missing out on something important, probably a good, reputable breeder.

When the breed is finally chosen, help them source a good breeder via a breed club or on here, you know what to look out for, help them don't let them do this alone, I always stick my nose in wanted or not when I know someone is looking that I care about and if I can I go view with them, so keep them on the right track they will thank you afterwards. :-)

I always think a great starter dog (how old are the sons?) is the Cav, lovely dogs, great with children and lovely temperaments (from good breeders - also health checks so important) I don't think you can beat a Cav as a first time dog. Though the exercise comment worries me a bit,  how much are they thinking?

There is the Dachsund, Shih tzu, Pom, Pap, Lasa, to throw in which may cover their needs............so many breeds to choose from. :-)

oh ok you didn't say they wouldn't get a lot of attention :-( Do they actually want a dog?  I would suggest they perhaps aren't 'ready' for a dog :-(  shelties are very easy going dogs (but they are going to cost more than £400) - they like some exercise and some mental stimulations but they're not workaholics like border collies.... they make excellent family dogs.

If they're looking for a 'cheap' dog and are prepared to put some effort into the dogs wellbeing (and this does take attention and stimulation!) then I suggest a rescue rather than a back yard breeder or puppy farmer, but they perhaps should seriously consider if having a dog is for them....

Oh I've stuck my oar very deeply in, i think they're sick of me already :D I had them watching a documentary on puppy farming last night...

The husband likes cavs, she doesn't.... and surely you'd be looking at over the 1000 mark for offspring from fully health tested parents?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say the dog wouldn't get attention, just that they would like a dog which does not have hugely vigorous needs for exercise like a border collie. Hence why I again suggested my own breed (greyhounds) but got nowhere ;) We grew up with gundogs so are all well used to high energy dogs, but this time around she want something less energetic. The dog would be an indoor dog and completely part of the family.

ok that's why I suggested a sheltie and not a border collie ;-)  for a good one, you're looking at £600-£700 though....

I know they've specified no terriers, but what about a border terrier?

I've always liked the look of them, and they do get some good write up's here?

I know Penny just i've no experience with shelties so was just querying whether they would not be a very active dog, physically and mentally, like most other collies, that's all :)

Terriers are out! :(

> We grew up with gundogs so are all well used to high energy dogs

Not true of all gundogs though - in fact I know plenty that once they've had a good walk are more than happy to sofa slump for the rest of the day!

Might be worth checking their definition of large too.  One persons large is another's medium and the KC Breed information doesn't always conform to an individuals idea either.  I think that's partly because we also look at weight/coat bulk to assess size.  For instance the KC describe the Golden Retriever and my Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla as a large dog.  The standards for a male are GR 22-24" and the HWHV 23-24.5" and yet I see the GR as a much bigger dog...  In this case I suspect it's because they take up more floor space, and aren't quite as easy to step over!  My wires can fold themselves up very nicely and are pretty lean.

Choosing a dog is quite a complex decision making process and not one I'd willingly volunteer to help another with, other than to suggest they review some basic characteristics to see what appeals: ears up or down; tail up or down; height above or below the knee; coat soft or coarse, long or short; colour.  Then start looking at those things that make living with a dog a joy or a burden; amount of exercise; barking; grooming; scent aware; livestock chasing; slobber :)

Good luck      ... of course you just know she'll choose something that you wouldn't, then ask you to dog sit when they go on holiday!!

How about using the KC's Find A Breed service? It might give a few ideas!

(That said, I tried it and stressed I wanted a large breed and it suggested chihuahua, min pin, pug and miniature dachshund!!!)

no they're not, which is why I suggested them ;-)  rough collies aren't like border collies either, although beardies and old english are :-)

How about a whippet , the ones I have met have been lovely , my son loved the ones at our ringcraft club. I think they take as much or little exercise as you can give , mind I have always had a soft spot for greyhounds :) and the lovely Italian greyhound but think they would be too fragile for my house at the moment ( 2 children running around ) :) .

I know they don't want an older dog but how about a dog that maybe a breeder has kept on to maybe show but hasn't met it's full potential for that?  They would be still fairly young and hopefully by this time should be house trained etc.

All hounds are out (!), they're set on a toy dog...

> All hounds are out (!), they're set on a toy dog...

Well I was going to suggest a PBGV but since it's a hound and you wouldn't be likely to get one for £400 I won't bother :-D

What about a Papillon or Phalene? (although I doubt they would be available for £400 either) but they are the breed I would get if I wanted a small dog. Marianne(Goldmali) would be able to tell you more about them but she is away at the moment.

ok not read any other posts but its obvious!
cavalier king charles!!!
loyal, loving, clever, not high maintinence, gud temprement and absolutly beautiful
if you want a lovely all round small family dog i dont think you can go wrong with this breed :)
also i know money IS an issue but when put against 10+ years and in no rush? i would wait for mr or mrs perfect....think about possible future vet bills ect...for the sake ov a hundred quid?? saying that sumtimes the most troublesum one just grabs you and its gudby common sense! hope they find the rite doggy xx

If they are set on a toy breed apart from maybe Yorkshire terriers that are totally pet bred, they are going to easily have to double what they expect to pay for one.

Toy breeds generally have much smaller litters and also many need to be homed older, so higher rearing costs, more C sections etc.

Straight for the Cavalier if you ask me. As long as they don't go for early spaying / neutering, which often causes a thick woolly coat which needs regular professional grooming if they don't want the dog to look like a small woolly sheep. An entire Cavalier has a flat silky coat which needs little more than brushing and they can shorten the feathering if they want if they are only having it as a pet. Reasonably small breed, excellent with children, will take as much or as little exercise as they like. They do need to find a good breeder this time though after the bichon near-miss, make sure they've done all the health tests, heart / eye / MRI scans.

ETA: just read the lower post about costs - I don't think you'll get any well bred dog from a reputable breeder for £400, they will need to either save up or starting looking in breed rescue, whatever breed they go for.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">(That said, I tried it and stressed I wanted a large breed and it suggested chihuahua, min pin, pug and miniature dachshund!!!)

Yes, I asked for a large breed stating I could exercise it for over 2 hours, wanted a long coat, lived in the country, reasonable sized garden....

Bolognese, Coton du Tulear, Havanese, Hungarian Puli, Lhasa Apso, Peke, Scottish Terrier, Sealyham, Shih Tzu, Skye Terrier, Tibetan Terrier & Yorkshire Terrier.

Now none of those even creep into Medium size (Besides the Puli) in my eyes and lots of those would never suit walks of over 2 hours.  What a rubbish service.

I think it's the price that'll be the problem when they settle on the breed.

There aren't alot of pups for £400 unless they're not from the best quality with health tests etc.

I agree, the families wish list does not add up.  A pedigree toy breed form a reptuable, caring breeder for £400?  Very unlikley.  As oneof hte other posters said, perhaps they may get a slightly older puppy which a breeder has run on,  but it is a long shot.  If this is really their price bracket they are gong to end up with a pet bred or worse puppy.  Bichons, their original choice, are towards the big end of the toy group, is this the sort of size they like?  It limits toy breeds in a similar sort of size bracket to Bichons, Cavaliers and Pugs, and brings in breeds like Shih Tzu and Lhasas too, but again the price is way outside of the amount they want to spend.  Maybe pick the breed and hten contact breed rescue and keep thier fingers crossed?

>they're set on a toy dog

It looks like only a puppy farmer then.  As I don't know of ANY toy breed that goes for £400.  I agree with an earlier poster that they need to wait until they can afford to have a dog.  As £400 is absolute peanuts when you start looking at vaccinations, other vet bills, feeding decent food etc.  It worries me that this is the sort of dog that gets reared on the cheapest supermarket food going.

If they want a dog with no health testing (to make it cheaper), could you not point out to them that buying cheaply could well land them with huge vet bills?  Or stand back, let them get on with it, and expect to step in when they decide to rehome the dog?

I dont want to judge people because everyone has limits of how much they want to spend or can afford, but I do think this is the type of limitations that drive would be puppy buyers to the wrong type of breeders.

It's a lack of understanding that puppies are like other items you buy in the respect that you get what you pay for.

I've tried to explain to a couple of acquaintances who were looking to buy a puppy and they've looked at me as if I was as mad as a hatter!

Agree with alot of the other, try contacting several breeders to see if they have any young adult/older puppies for sale that they have run on.

> I do think this is the type of limitations that drive would be puppy buyers to the wrong type of breeders.
>
>

A puppy from a well bred litter with stud fees, travel and health testing the quantifiable costs (let aloen time, extra ehating washign etc) alone will mean the puppy will have cost at least that to rear, and that in a generally easy whelping breed with average of 6 pups.

>  I don't think they'd want to spend over 400

Personally, I think, if the initial purchase cost is going to be a huge factor for them, then they really can't expect to meet the other requiremets. Anybody selling 'bargain' or cheap puppies is not very likely to be producing great examples of the breed, so size/temperment/excersise needs may be nothing like the breed is supposed to have.

You're all preaching to the converted here, I've waited a long time for my pup and he still won't be coming to me for another 4 months, parents are health tested etc, everything that could have been done has been and I am certainly paying for it.

Anyway, my sister text me the following day after this to say she'd mentioned to a friend she wanted a pup and her friend's family member had had an accidental litter of bichon x king charles so they took one of those. Of course no health tests etc were done etc but hey, too late.

In future I don't think I'll bother advising anyone, people don't want to know and do their own thing in the end. She's taken me up on crate training however and all the behavioural/socialisation stuff and it's a lovely little pup, just pray it stays healthy, so that's better than nothing.

I know what you mean! I came on here recently as my friend's daughter wanted a rare breed terrier, can't remember now what it was, a Dandie or Skye or something. Next minute she's emailed to say they've bought a Cavachon!! :rolleyes:

Argh! I went mad but my OH rightly pointed out what's done is done, and you've advised all you can, no point falling out with her over it now...