In my local rag today :-

"PEDIGREE" cross breed puppies for sale. Collie/Goldie mix, fantasitc and unique cross. Economical flat coat look alikes... £350 secures.

Ho hum !!

It amazes my that they call them PEDIGREE,,, we have a shop that sells puppies near us and i have gone in out of curiosity,,  and on asking what breed a pup was i was told "he's a pedigree, x this and that" comes with papers the lot lol,,, ,,, Dont this and that make him a mongrel ?? or a bitsy ,, i guess he comes with a copy of the Sun then as his papers,,, or something just as worthless lol

Ands Yikessss that price,,

No, crossbreeds can have a pedigree, that is just a "family history" and may, I suppose have "papers" in that someone may have gone to the trouble of writing that family history down, although not registration documents from the Kennel Club of course.

Amazing...mixed breed pedigree...

Some one near me had "pedigrees for sale, £325 not registered, both parents are so you can do it yourself if you want them registered"

I liked the "economical flat coat look alike ".... presumably then all black puppies ! the Goldie had little input into the colour then ? Black is a pretty dominant colour.
I know the difference between a Pedigree and a a KC reg document but how many unsuspecting new owners will assume from this advert that the pups are something special?
Aileen

> "PEDIGREE" cross breed

a contadiction in terms.

Surely this ad breaks the trades descriptions act ? you cannot advertise something as pedigree is its a cross?!

Pedigree does not have to mean pure breed.  It is simply family history, we all have one :)

But in normal useage Pedigree Puppy is understood to be a single breed heritage, if the ad said "pedigrees supplied with pups that would be acceptable - referring to paperwork not status,  but I am fairly sure Trading standards would be happy to work with and ad describing Cross breds as Pedigree.

> but I am fairly sure Trading standards would be happy to work with and ad describing Cross breds as Pedigree

Do you know if they have ever been able to?  I would have thought it was too woolly.

The problem is Joe Public believe all this rubbish. My Aunt has a Lab, the litter was advertised in her local village shop as Pedigree. She rang me a few months after getting him asking how she could get his "pedigree papers"? I told her to go back to the breeder, to cut a long story short she eventually got a piece of paper with his pedigree written on, it showed Mum and Dad were brother and sister !!
She still wanted to know how to get his pedigree, what she meant was his KC papers, which of course he didn't have as the litter was unregistered. The litter had never been advertised as KC registered so the breeders hadn't broken any advertising rules. I asked her if she'd known that he'd come from a Brother / Sister mating when she had seen the litter would she still have bought him. Her answer was "Yes" as they had all been so lovely.

Perhaps the answer is to educate people as to what these terms actually mean.  They are falling for it because they don't understand these differences.

Like someone advertising a Golden Retriever GSD cross and saying it is recognised as a genuine designer breed in US. It is called the Golden Alsatian but they have a Golden coloured puppy and a BLACK puppy for sale. Perhaps it should be renamed the 'Golden/Black Alsatian'

fair Do's, I stand corrected, :-) well when i was a kid a cross breed was a mongrel,, meaning 2 or more different breeds put together,, i suppose its just  what i been use to knowing them as,, and a  pedigree is to me a dog bred from the same breed and by a proper breeder and when they say papers i assume that to mean real kc reg documents,,

I think the majority of Goldie crosses turn out black for some reason, especially with collie, knew one near me years ago (called Gideon) that at a distance i mistook for a flatcoat.

> I think the majority of Goldie crosses turn out black for some reason, especially with collie

The main reason for that would be because Golden Retrievers are clear red, ee and this colour is not common in Border Collies (only from imported Australian lines where it is known as Australian Red).  Therefore almost all Border Collies are EE which over-rides the Golden Retriever's e genes to give offspring of Ee = solid colour, usually black.

It's not impossible for Liver/brown to show up though if the BC parent was liver/brown or carried it, as some GRs especially those with brown noses may be liver-based.

The fact that GRs also have the KB gene (aka Dominant Black) despite not being visually black - and Border Collies have the other type of black, Recessive Black, aa is probably another factor in so many black offspring being produced.

However I knew of an instance some years ago where a Flatcoat Retriever (another breed that has KB) bred to a BC produced one/some Brindle offspring, meaning the Flattie hads a brindle gene k(br) hidden up his sleeve. It couldn't have come from the BC as it can't be hidden by Recessive Black.

Same story with Goldmali's litter some years ago, GRet x Malinois - the brindles in that litter had come from the GRet parent as the a(y) gene of the Malinois is similarly unable to carry brindle.

Yes I was thinking of goldmali's litter with the brindles but assumed that was some quirk with the BSD colouring as the breed is closely related to the Brindle Dutch Shepherd.

I find colour genetics quite fascinating and did some experimental (for the pot) colour breeding when I had the bunnies, though I know some colour rules are different in different species..

>i guess he comes with a copy of the Sun then as his papers

ROFLMAO!  :-)  :-)  :-)

> Yes I was thinking of goldmali's litter with the brindles but assumed that was some quirk with the BSD colouring as the breed is closely related to the Brindle Dutch Shepherd.

I think most people assumed that... but only when the molecular research on the KB gene came out, did they find brindle is on the same locus, and can't be carried hidden by A locus genes. [In theory it *could* be masked by the KB gene in Groenedaels but doesn't seem to have surfaced even in inter-variety matings]. Otherwise, brindles could have been popping out all over in Belgians across the years... the brindle gene seems to have been lost very early on in BSDs but survived in the Dutch.

Rabbit genetics was the first I learned, but a great deal of it does transfer over to other species; it's usually just a question of learning what genes are unique to that species and how they behave... the rest is pretty much the same.

How about this one?

Toy Schnoodles
The first of their type in the UK,Mum is a Solid Black,k.c registered Toy Poodle, Dad is my American Imported MSCA registered Blue Merle Miniature Schnauzer(photo is Dad), the first and only stud dog in the UK /Europe.
The puppies are expected to weight between 7lb-11lb Adult weight.
I have 5 puppies 4 girls 1 boy, they are raised as part of our family and will be very well socialised,they will be ready on 11th June at 8 weeks old, vaccinated,vet health cleared and clear eye screened.
The Miniature Schnauzer and Toy Poodle are very intelligent,loyal family pets and fantastic with children and other animals, Schnoodles with have the best of both breed traits and will make wonderful family pets for those looking for something Rare and Exotic.
I am the founder of this breed in the UK, I am launching a new breed club shortly within the UK, please look out for our website it will be dedicated to the Exotic pure bred pedigree Merle Miniature Schnauzers.This new club will be launched approximately end of May, but to find out more information about the Merles please visit the American Club, here you will find all information about the genetics etc.
The Merle gene is a mutation gene which dilutes to alter the base coat colour, this is a Random dilution which gives the mottled, marbled effect on the dogs coat.
Merle can result in all colours from chocolate,blue,silver etc.
I have 1 Blue Merle Girl, 1 Solid Chocolate girl, 2 solid Black girls and 1 Solid Black boy.
All puppies are carriers of the Merle gene.
The Blue Merle girl would be a fantastic asset to a breeding programme to create this Exotic colour in Toy Poodles or F2 Schnoodles, as she is a Dominant Merle, if mated her puppies should be dominiatly all Merle, she is a carrier of the chocolate and blue.
These puppies are the result of a lengthy breeding programme and will be placed in vetted, suitable homes.Ethical Breeders may apply.
Puppies are individually priced.Please feel free to call me for any questions you may have.

Lost for words, Marisa!!!!

Complete ignorance of the mechanics of merle to start with - need I go on? That's shocking, and a recipe for disaster which the dogs will suffer along with the gullible. I wish there was some consumer legislation, I really do, even if it inconveniences the genuine breeders, surely it's worth it in animal welfare terms in the longer run?

of course though in Australia it's simply known as 'red' with what we call red dogs called 'brown', in UK though we tend to call it 'Aussie red' to distinguish between our own 'red' which is technically not red, but brown ;-)

of course the colour cannot actually have originated in Australia as they got their collies from UK from the early part of the twentieth century - if we assume no crossbreeding with other breeds in Australia it's likely that the genes for 'red' were in the UK.  The ISDS however didn't keep colour accurate records - so whilst some colours are recorded with accuracy, for example dilute colours are simply ignored, so blue dogs were registered as 'black'.  Red - true or 'brown' weren't a popular colour nor were they 'welcomed' on the farm as it was believed the sheep didn't give a lighter dog the respect they gave the black dogs... so it's possible that they exported dogs carrying the unwanted genes to Australia!  The rise of 'brown' collies is due to two factors in UK - that the most used stud dog in the history of the border collie was a brown gene carrier and with the expansion of ownership of collies outside shepherds a liking for the colour has increased.

In Australia there was more note taken of the unusual colours so it's been easier to see where they are in lines.... which is why dilute crops up as a surprise in some UK lines, in Australia it's been noted and used in their breeding programmes.

Fascinating stuff...

Speaking of "red" dogs, was a little disturbed by this the other day:
(Advert for Kelpie pups)
"own your own RED DOG. cute and smart pedigree kelpie puppies. will become fabulous obedient dogs for either working or pets!"
A worrying amount of Kelpie and Kelpie cross litters being advertised lately, no doubt due to that film. Pity few of them actually explain quite how hardcore Kelpies actually are!

oh gosh, complete nightmare, although I've no idea which film... I do know kelpies and they don't become 'obedient dogs' without a lot of work and commitment...

Marisa - your post is completely and utterly against TOS of Champdogs - not only are you advertising a litter, it is a litter of cross-breeding.

This will be removed as soon as Admin/Mods see it - I've drawn their attention to it already.

But please remain on Champdogs - you may learn something about breeding ethics....

Marisa stated at the top "How about this one"  - I read that as just that she was adding to the previous ridiculous adverts (also she has 378 posts so not a new member) :)

Lokis mum-might be an idea that you read a thread in full..... be prepared with the humble pie!

> Lokis mum-might be an idea that you read a thread in full..... be prepared with the humble pie!

I have read the full thread, Celtic Lad ....either I'm being particularly obtuse or not seeing an underlying thread.   I am only reporting the ONE post - not the whole thread! 

Oh ok - I see now what you mean .....I am about to get knife & fork ready to eat humble pie .... - Sorry Marisa - I read it that YOU had the litter!!!!  Humble apologies!

Does the Chd or Chl gene appear in dogs - love my chinchilla & fox minilops & was thinking just today does it appear in any dog breeds?

No problems Lokis Mum, have only just read this and all resolved so no harm done lol.

Hi Kasshyk, No it doesn't...
For many years it was thought a Ch gene was responsible for removing yellow pigment in various breeds - "grey" Belgian Shepherds for example.

Recent research at a molecular level (that is, comparing DNA and so forth with the known patterns in CH gene animals) has not yet identified it in dogs.

There are other genes which produce a like effect - silver agouti cavies are not CH but mimic; silver grey hamsters look chinchilla but aren't; the Inhibitor gene in cats can remove yellow pigment but isn't chinchilla, that is to say not on the C locus.

So our elkies and other wolf coloured dogs are the agouti series with limited yellow?

> So our elkies and other wolf coloured dogs are the agouti series with limited yellow?

They are a(w) [wolf sable] on the agouti locus, but they don't necessarily have any other gene to lighten the yellow as a(w) seems to have limited yellow in most cases.

When the agouti genes of the dog were explored fairly recently, many breeds were tested to see which agouti alleles were found in each breed. Five breeds were found to be "fixed" at a(w), that is to say no other agouti allele occurs in the breed: Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, Keeshond, Swedish Vallhund and Norwegian Elkhound.

The other alleles on the canine agouti locus are:
a(y) - Fawn (the "Sable" colour seen in Rough Collies, Shelties, Tervuerens etc). This is dominant to a(w).
a(t) - Black and Tan (also accounts for 'saddle tan' in hounds)
a - Recessive Black - fairly rare and mainly present only in herding breeds.

What acounts for Dark mask and ears a pre-requisite in my breed but not present in many of the others, especially Huskies?

Many years ago back in 1998 OH and I bought a GR/BC cross, she was advertised as such, no mention of pedigree or papers she cost us the price of a rescue at the time. She was a beautiful black dog with a lovely nature but very very lively. We loved her.

Not all crosses are by deception some are by accident, we were lucky to have bought an accident. Accident should be the only reason for crossing.

We now have a love for a true/pure breed and I find it difficult to hold my tongue when we're out walking and we meet people with Yorkiepoo's, Cockerpoo's etc, there's 'poo' all over the place.

They are no doubt lovely dogs to their owners and will receive the best of care, but it is sad that these people think that they have something extra special and 'rare'. It's a bloody crossbreed and I want to say that to them but manners prevent.

The way things are going with these over priced crosses and the desire for the 'unusual and special'  I worry for the pure bred.

> What acounts for Dark mask and ears a pre-requisite in my breed but not present in many of the others, especially Huskies?

Almost certainly the presence of the E(m) gene, on a different locus, so therefore separate to the agouti component.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/mask.html

....explains more about E(m) and how its presence or absence relates to masks.

Thanks, doesn't mention masks with a(w), only in relation to the fawn agouti series brindle etc patterns.

It does mention masks in relation to fawn and fawn sable.

Would you like me to try and find out more about this? I'd be very interested for my own understanding.

Don't want to put you to any trouble just curious.

we meet people with Yorkiepoo's, Cockerpoo's etc, there's 'poo' all over the place

:-D :-D :-D

Met up with some friends of mine with Cavaliers at a rally trial today, their black & tan has fairly curly hair, and in a few places it really goes into ringlets particularly when wet. They were highly miffed one day to be told in the park by someone 'there's so many of these poodle crosses around nowadays'!!! The person would not believe that their boy was pure Cavalier, just because he had curls!!!

The main reason for that would be because Golden Retrievers are clear red, ee and this colour is not common in Border Collies (only from imported Australian lines where it is known as Australian Red).  Therefore almost all Border Collies are EE which over-rides the Golden Retriever's e genes to give offspring of Ee = solid colour, usually black.

It's not impossible for Liver/brown to show up though if the BC parent was liver/brown or carried it, as some GRs especially those with brown noses may be liver-based.

The fact that GRs also have the KB gene (aka Dominant Black) despite not being visually black - and Border Collies have the other type of black, Recessive Black, aa is probably another factor in so many black offspring being produced.

What if it was a Rough Collie, not a BC?  I'm quite curious because a doggy neighbour we walk with is a rescue so history unknown, BUT, everyone guesses GR and Rough Collie.  She is golden colour, bit of white on her nose and chest. Everything else looks sort of modified collie, head with narrow muzzle and collie ears, coat, and tail curls up a bit at the end.  Not spitz type tail at all though.

> What if it was a Rough Collie, not a BC? I'm quite curious because a doggy neighbour we walk with is a rescue so history unknown, BUT, everyone guesses GR and Rough Collie.

Not pure Rough Collie as they don't have the e/e gene... but that's not to say there might be more of a mix in this dog's background, or even a back-cross. Other breeds that have clear e/e red (as far as I know) include Nova Scotia DTR, Pharaoh Hound, Vizsla and probably more. But it's not in the background of RC's and so a straight cross between RC/GR wouldn't give clear red pups in the first generation.

Thank you.  I will tell my neighbour. 

Just jumping in at the end here, have been offline for a few days as I had to go home to Sweden to my dad's funeral. :( I know all of you here knows, but for anyone who happens to come across this thread I really need to point out that my Golden Retriever x Malinois litters (10 years ago this month) was very much an accident and not a deliberate cross. :) All were neutered.

I've just seen an advert by a commercial kennels for purposely-bred basset x springers! They're planning another litter and wanting £100 non-refundable deposits!

They're not quite as odd-looking as the shar-pei x basset I saw modelling a dog coat! That looked remarkably like a hippo.

They don't mention what purpose then?

On a more positive note, as a nice change, a recent newspaper story mentions a JR x Papillon that was stolen and it said the dog was valued at £50. No silly name for the cross given either. (Best of all the dog is now back home.)

>They don't mention what purpose then?

For sale as pets. These aren't accidental matings.

Yes, I realise. I was being facetious :)