I wondered if anyone could give me the benefit of their experiences of why my girl has missed please. I have just come back from the Veterinary Hospital having had my girl scanned at 32 days post mating.  There were no signs of any uterine dilation whatsoever and the vet said that at that time there would have been at least something to see.  His job is actually as an ultrasound scanner so he knows what he is talking about.  He said that there didnt seem to be an structural issues, or free fluid or any signs of inflammation.

She was on her fourth season and is just over two years old, this would have been her first litter. The stud dog is experienced and has litters on the ground. Both my girl and the stud are health tested with all the KC tests going and some extra ones to make sure, every i had been dotted and every t crossed regarding lines, health, results, and the stud owner is very well known and experienced too.  I have tried to do everything right and this litter had been 12 years in the planning, right house, right job as well as the right foundation bitch.

She was progesterone tested with Idexx on day 10 which came back the next morning as 6.4nmol (not yet ovulated), then again on day 12 which came back at the next morning at 8.6 nmol. (still not ovulated) Both times retest in two days.  She had been trying to pounce on my other two dogs from day 10, but on day 12 she was flagging and also standing, however the blood tests had showed she was not ready as she was still on 8.6nmol. She started not to flag quite so much on the Thursday and she was retested on the Friday, day 14.   I took her to the Stud dog on the Saturday (day 15) as I was expecting the result to be spot on and she refused to mate. She was growling and snarling and sitting down.  I put her back in the car and as I did so, I had a call from the vets, the results were showing that when the blood was taken the day before, she was at 28.8nmol, ovulated and mate between 1 and 3 days.  So everything in theory should have been fine.

After she refused to mate on the Saturday, after some indepth discussion, it was decided to try a different dog on the sunday (day 16), actually my first choice's son, so same lines, health tests, who is also a well known FTCH and same stud owner.  They mated within minutes and had a 25 minute tie.  Only one mating offered, which is standard for working kennels.

Since then my girl has shown every sign of being in whelp, she went off her food around day 20, she is normally one who's food doesnt touch the sides. She has been sick, tired and not wanted to play quite so much.  Her rib cage is a little wider and her nipples have started to pink at the ends, but not mammary tissue at the base.  So Im not sure if she is now going into a phantom.  She isnt producing milk or hiding toys yet and Im very worried about a pyo too.

The vet said that there wasnt even any signs of any puppys having been absorbed.  I know that sometimes things like this happen.  But is there anything that anyone can shed any light on, that is obvious.  We are obvious really devastated, this was a very much wanted litter, one of the pups was going to Hounds for Heroes as well and I had homes lined up for any others. 

Well the most common reason is mistiming, which doesn't sound likely here.  The re-absorption.

Perhaps her hormone levels just were not high enough to maintain a pregnancy to the implantation stage at 3 weeks.

Like us they are not machines, and though their conception rate all timing etc being spot on, is very high, sometimes they will miss.

Personally next time I would like to have her mated alternate days until she showed she had gone over.

the progesterone levels etc are what the average bitch is doing hormonally, eggs are released roughly over 24 - 36 hours (ovulation), but require maturation.  Perhaps with her violent re-action to mating on day 15 she wasn't as ready on day 16 as she could have been, but then the sperm should have stayed viable.

Who knows.  I always feel happiest if they have the opportunity to mate until the point either looses interest, as then I know the fertile period has indeed passed.

Was the second dog you used proven?

Advantage you have now is she is not a maiden anymore and likely to be more co-operative next time.

No advice, just wanted to say sorry to hear your bad news. you must be so disappointed. :(

No advice here, as it very much looks as if you couldn't have done more.  So sorry for you, it sucks doesn't it?

can i just say how sorry i am for you! a friend on here had 4 misses with her girl and she had traveled over seas with her girl too she used progestrone test every time , now this time was the last time she could mate her girl but didnt progest she she need the looking at changes in the cells???(cant think what its called)....it shown a change at day 12 so she mated her and yes she got pups :) now then she was progest testing it always said ready day 16 but never took even tho she did stand!

Sounds like the timing was right. Viable sperm can live 3-5 days in a bitch.

I've had the same bitch miss over and over. Not a position you are in at the moment though. With me, it was infection based and the vet finally sorted it by giving her a course of antibiotics when her season started and stopping a week after mating. (With pregnancy safe ab's I must add)..and it worked. After loads of misses when I had people telling me she was just a bitch who would never have puppies (even repro vets told me this) I had a happy healthy litter from her.

Did you notice any discharge at all, particularly a week after mating, thats when my problems always started.

I've had 3 bitches that have come to my young dog (over a period of 2 years - he's not overused!!) that have been blood tested. They were all mated at least a couple of days later than the dates suggested by the blood tests and each had a decent size litter (9 - 11 pups)

Hmm all very interesting. I have always had 100% faith in progesterone testing. But I do remember having one of those tests done, can't think of the name, when they have a smear done and its viewed down a microscope. That test told the bitch had not ovulated, blood test taken on same day said she had. Confusing. I went with the progesterone test, mated her and missed. Makes me wonder if it was too early.

It's why I liek being able to have access to a stud until the stud or bitch loose interest to pont she has in fact gone over to avoid too early cessation of mating.

Hi all, thank you so much for replying.  Just in answer to some of the questions, no she didnt have any sort of discharge after mating, she was well in herself and there was a 25 minute tie.  We werent offered another mating, some working gundog kennels only offer one mating, hence the progesterone testing on advice of the stud dog owner.  Ive tried to add some more information, I really appreciate your experienced advice as just trying to untangle the 'why' a bit more. 

Going from my notes, Ive got a feeling that she was a bit over - what do you think?
Monday day 10 (test done 8am), 6.4 nmol - started flagging for my neutered boys but not standing
Wednesday day 12, (test done 8am) 8.6 nmol - really standing and flagging for them and driving my Cavvie mad chasing him (she dripped some red watery blood at the vets when we went to have the bloods done.)
Thursday day 13 - bit quieter not flagging quite so much
Friday day 14 (test done 5pm so blood taken much later in the day) Almost normal all day, almost a bit quiet, not flagging, 28.8 nmol according to the IDEXX chart that is 19 - 31 nmol/L   Ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1 - 3 days
Saturday Idexx results come back at 10am, she wouldnt stand for my original choice at 9am in the morning.
Sunday evening (as stud dog owner in competition all day) she mated at around 10pm with second choice dog, proven stud and son of original choice.

So just thinking laterally here, if she Ovulated on say Thursday morning, by Sunday evening it probably was too late?  Can anyone help me understand this a bit more if it is just a timing issue?

Is there a swab that can be done for CHV just in case?

No I'd say she was spot on when mated as it takes two days for the eggs to mature. 

If you were doing AI that is the day they would have done it days after ovulation as that is when the most ripe eggs would be around (as ovulation takes around 36 hours to complete) and they would survive for anther day or so, after that.

So what would be your suggestion as to what to do next?  Her next season could be the very end of August, which could mean Christmas puppies :( plus the fact that in the warmer weather the pups can play outside (supervised obviously). The season afterwards would be January, so not terribly ideal weather wise either, can just see going for visits to stud dog in the snow (I drive a tiny Kia Picanto...).  We have a free return, but not terribly sure if it was 'free return next season' or just a 'free return'.

Is there a test for CHV? Could it have been that?

She is only just two if that helps.

If she was yours, what would you do? 

If she were mine, I would start the progesterone testing and when she hit 8 or so, I would take her to the stud and leave her there. Not everyone likes this I know but I am often quite friendly with the stud owner anyway so its never a problem and I have myself had bitches stay when one of my dogs has been used. That way the dog and bitch are together for the peak time and have access to each other until they lose interest.

Not everyone can leave their bitch, not everyone wants to and not everyone can accomodate a bitch so its an individual thing. Or else maybe you can say in a travel lodge with her, local to the dog and get across daily, or even stay with the owners if they are friends of yours. Its just ways of keeping the dog and bitch together for the maximum ammount of  time.

'd agree with the above and is how I have nearly always arranged matings for my girls.  It is by far the most natural, and if you believe as I do that a happy relaxed bitch is more likely to conceive then allowing the pair to become well acquainted is preferable to a single mating with a dog the bitch has barely laid eyes on.

Thank you for your replies. I'm really not sure whether I will be allowed to leave her. The stud dog's owner is currently in Italy judging, so I spoke to his Father who is now retired from judging and trialing, but who looks after the dogs whilst his son is away. He just said that he would get his son to phone me when he gets back. In common with a lot of working/trialing kennels, I was only offered one mating with a free return if no pups.  So very upset today, I had envisioned a summer playing and training one of my girls pups and I've had lots of emails from my potential puppy buyers saying how sad they are and for all the time we spent with them. Next time I feel like not even putting details of the mating on my website until she is confirmed pregnant, but I really wanted to get to know people before pups were that close.

Hounds for heroes were also going to assess the litter, so had to disappoint them too :-(

I know things are changing but traditionally where stud dog owners had kennels it was normal part of stud service to board bitches.  In my own breed where largely owners do not have kennel facilities it is still usual to board bitches, or even allow the stud to stay with an experienced breeder.

This one go and that's it, hand over the money doesn't sound like much of a stud service.

Surely those who care about a breed should be anxious to ensure that there is the best chance of successfully producing top quality puppies, from top quality parents.

Personally I'd be looking for a more accommodating and interested stud dog owner.