My sister who wants a bichon frise has spoken to a breeder who she found very nice today. She said pups would be KC registered and leave with a care pack and wants to meet the entire amily (kids included) before selling. She said she doesn't show because her dogs have acres to play in and she doesn't like to have to keep them so clean.... now my sister is looking for a pet, not a showdog, and thinks i'm ott with thinking a breeder that doesn't work/show their dogs rings alarmbells... but i'm used to hounds, maybe toy dogs are a very different thing and i should be looking for other things? i just want to ensure they get a happy, healthy pup from a reputable breeder. both parents can be seen.

Agree it is better if the dogs are shown or at least the opinion of others is sought as to the quality of the dogs to be bred. To be honest I would be more worried that a dog owned by the breeder has been used at stud, now it is just possible this was the best choice but it could be that it was just easy.

The fact that "Both parents can be seen" and that she does not show would be flagging up "breeding for money" in my eyes, however if she is doing all the right thinks like health checks and good vetting of new owners etc. maybe I am being a little picky. Puppy environment and how they have been raised is something to take into consideration. It worries me somewhat that someone breeding but never showing and never taking her dogs out as they have room to play is not the best. All dogs need to socialise and to keep a breed true to it's looks and qualities you need to get them out to shows. I met someone with a very poor looking Westie the other day, to be honest it could have been any umber of small white crosses ! and yet it was KC reg and sold as pure bred Westie but the lady owner was not happy with it's looks. It is all well and good the RSPCA and otjhers saying we should not breed for looks but then the reason we choose a particular breed in the first place is because we like the look of the breed. To then end up hundreds of pounds out of pocket and with a dog thet is a travesty of the breed we wanted is unfair. If I paid £1,000 for a VW car and ended up with a Ford I would be justifyably anoyed. I have a huge amount of  repect for thos who go of to a rescue kennels and pick any dog to give it a hope of a forever home but we are not all like that and if she wants a Bishon then why pay the same price for a run of the mill puppy when there are plenty of good carefull breeders who will make sure her puppy grows up to be a shining example of it's breed.
Aileen

Has she looked into what health issues there are in this breed and looked at any health tests done and the results?

Agree with the others - I have sympathy with someone who doesn't want to keep a bichon in show coat, but make very sure that she has done whatever health tests are recommended (should be on the club website) and perhaps have a good google on pictures of bichons so she can have some idea of whether the parents look remotely like they should, bearing in mind that she might have them clipped short for convenience. Wanting to meet the whole family is a good sign. I wouldn't worry too much that she used her own stud dog, as long as nothing else sets alarm bells going, 3 of my bought in dogs the breeder had used their own stud dogs and they are all 'proper' show breeders, just happened to want to use their own boy that time.

She lives on a large property (10 or more acres) and keeps horses and says the dogs come out and play in the grounds so keeping them in full coat for shows is just not doable. There are no recommended health tests for this breed apparently (breeder didn't say this, kc website did).

ETA - just re-read the website and the sire is from another kennel in another part of the country so doesn't live with her. A google doesn't bring up this kennel but I know with my particular breed, not everyone is online.

> She lives on a large property (10 or more acres) and keeps horses and says the dogs come out and play in the grounds so keeping them in full coat for shows is just not doable.

Other people manage it so not sure if that is not just an excuse.  I would be asking just what she does do to ensure she is breeding true to type?
What about the sire?  Has he been shown and if not, why not as there must be plenty of choice from those that have?

i'm finding it very hard to get my sister so interested in asking those sort of questions, she has no interest in, or plans to, show and feels that perfectly nice and genuine people breed dogs with no intentions to do anything with him. She said she'll go see these pups and decide from there but you and i know that people rarely walk away from cute, fluffy pups, no matter how much advice they've had.

It is a shame, she could probably do much better but it may all turn out OK so you can only try can't you :)
If nothing else I would stress to her to tear herself away from the puppies and take a good look at the temperament of all the adults not just the mother as chances are they are all relatives.  I should think she will be interested in that aspect at least.

I am at a loss to understand why anyone would insist on buying a Bichon if they don't care what they look like, clipped out and dirty it does not look like a Bichon, you will not know if the breeder is producing the sort of dog you have in mind it will look nothing like a Bichon.

I've seen the website photos they look like bichons and are not shaved etc - just not in the full 'halo' show bichons are groomed to. I'm still at a loss as to why anyone would want a bichon, or pay huge money for a pet from fairly random parents. (sorry bichon fans!)

E.g This

http://www.google.ie/imgres?um=1&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=6AKgeTQ2zweySM:&imgrefurl=http://dogbreedpictures.blogspot.com/2011/11/bichon-frise.html&docid=mA-O3KOyxBtweM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TCmfWpleto0/TrO24hO8xVI/AAAAAAAABOk/9RzS6deyDEw/s1600/Bichon-Frise-Dog-Breed-Pictures-5.jpg&w=800&h=1009&ei=eXmiT-ta0JiFB6O2-PMI&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1125&vpy=255&dur=3973&hovh=252&hovw=200&tx=145&ty=118&sig=115061473207484281607&page=2&tbnh=141&tbnw=130&start=21&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:21,i:190

Rather than this:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images10/BichonBevBusseChip1.jpg

To be honest I think the first one looks like a nicer dog! :-o

As does my sis, she doesn't like the show coat all  puffed up.

Inka, they are both bathed and groomed one is clipped the other not but you also get them clipped right down and if un-bathed a sort of mud colour.

Thing is the show coat is a natural coat just groomed, if she likes a short curled coat then may be a Spanish water dog would suit them better.

The breeder didn't say she doesn't bathe/look after them, just that she is out daily with the horses in their grounds and doesn't put the upkeep into their coats for showing. My sister prefers the dogs not with the 'afro', that's all. it's not a big deal for her eitherway. I would rather her go to a different breeder who at least showed her dogs, or something...

Well if she is sure she wants a Bichon even it it looks like something else that is ok as long as it is well bred and healthy and you can tell if the dogs the breeder has are quality dogs.

In fairness, I disagree that the dogs in the first photo don't look like bichons.

There may be no health schemes as in official KC/BVA ones but certainly all toy breeds and many small terrier breeds etc should have their Patellas checked.  Don't understand why we have no scheme in UK as in USA they grade Pattellas.

Regardless of whether your sister wants to show, how does she feel about a Bichon that might grow much larger?

There are all sorts of Bichon sizes around here - I've no idea whether they are being crossbred, the owners always say it's a Bichon

My friend recently lost her 8 year old Bichon who was actually as big as his best friend - a large Cocker spaniel   He wasn't the healthiest dog I've ever met either, despite being a lovely little man.    Luckily she didn't buy him as a very young pup and knew he wasn't going to be Bichon sized as he was too big even at 6 months old, but she still didn't expect him to be the size of a Cocker!

Sadly, if the breeder isn't showing the dogs there is no guarantee that correct sized dogs have been used in the parents :( 

Most people who buy a Bichon want a small dog, otherwise they'd be buying something bigger surely?

Forgot to add - regardless of whether your sister wants to show or likes the pouffed up coat, there is still A LOT of coat care involved with owning a Bichon, soft curly coats tend to matt very quickly and need attention every day - more often in wet weather!

Give me a hound any day!!

Sadly many toy breeds do  not have any health tests done.  I would not be put off in a toy breed if they were not shown, it's not the be all and end all, says me who's just imported a toy breed with my mum LOL!

we have a bichon and the 1st pic is of a pup that hasnt grown its adult caot:) the second is of an adult thats been brushed!!! when a coat isnt brushed every day it goes curly :) my daughters pup is only 5moths shes inbetween both :)

We have recently rehome a 12 week old Bichon puppy who ended up with us (American Cocker REscue) as my co-rescuer is a groomer and the kids in the pup's family were mistreating it, so the Grandma took matters into her own hands and removed the pup.  He is certainly going to be a big boy, his new home has one of my pugs, just over a year old, and although lighter weight the bichon pup is as tall as the pug.  Lots of hte pet bred ones are very big indeed.

I agree with Jeangenie--the first looks like a nice little dog, and the second looks like the coat is the most important thing, not the dog. I'm sorry, but I always feel sorry for breeds who have to be so over dressed for the show ring. I can see where your sister is coming from-- if you like the personality of Bichons why on earth not buy one from a breeder who has done all the health tests but doesn't show, and lets her dogs be real dogs, instead of perpetually fussing to keep them clean and in full show coat?

> Give me a hound any day!!

LIKE.... :)

You can still have a coated breed, that's like mine, and 'wash and wear', and it's a hound group breed tooo LOL

I couldn't be in a breed with loads of show prep, a thorough comb brush and occasional bath are enough for me.

its very easy to keep their coats clean by brushing them every day lol they only need cutting every 6-8 weeks ,they are pets before anything eles i cant see brushing every day and bathing every 6-8weeks or bath before a show any different to any other breed really! you still need to brush every day even if its not kept in a show cut because of them knotting up! so show cut or not it dont matter, its just down to each owner, but good job we like the show cut lol x

Our breed look like there's masses of show prep when they are in the ring.  But you would be wrong!  Most of the show dogs also live normal doggy lives and love going out into muddy fields, often hunting for themselves, brambles are great places to find live stuff to hunt

The pale parts often get stained as they are the underneath parts - even on darker dogs, but a quick wash and brush and they're good to go.  Trimming is not much different to the normal pet clip, just a bit more particular and a good groomer will be able to do it in just over an hour including washing and drying.   The difference is made by correct coat care - just a few minutes a day with a comb run through and not rubbing dry after rain/mud.  Just a pat dry with a towel and then quick comb out when bone dry.   Some of the show people do like to fuss and spend time trimming, but it's not really necessary with a correct coat ;)  Bathing too often just softens the coat so only when it's really necessary and preferably not within 4 days before a show, drying is really quick - especially if they can go outside and run about a bit.

The dogs actually enjoy the attention and will vie for first up on the table at combing/trimming time.   It's only when coat care isn't regular (and/or an incorrect cottony coat) that it becomes a chore as matts take longer and pull at sensitive areas of skin, this means that a groom and clip can take up to 4 hours and IMHO is frankly cruel and the dog would get fed up - these are always pet dogs whose owners think showing is cruel

Curly coats only look fluffy and 'show perfect' when going in the ring or just combed or brushed, an hour later the curls are separated again :-D

LOL yup, what you said :-D

You managed to say in 3 lines what I put in my essay ROFL

I've got to learn to stop waffling!

but you make it good reading dill ;) lol

What would concern ME most is that these dogs and therefore pups, may well have NEVER been off the breeders property and so are undersocialised/potentially have some behavioural issues they have passed on to the puppies - if thats the case and if also the breeder doesn't have many visitors, you could have a real problem on your hands pretty quickly.

Yes, she needs at least to make sure that the parents and other adult dogs are friendly and look well cared of, and are roughly the size and shape of a bichon, clipped coat or not. Fingers crossed!