I agree. I think to be denied the right to handle them is a little odd though and certainly over cautious, it isn't as if they are newly whelped.

"Their health results are all over their web site so did not really doubt they were ticking those boxes."

And that was enough for you was it Stooge - with only pet names given with the results?

Yep. I think I will be speaking to KC and asking their advice regarding that. I am still very much undecided here, this entire thing has tarnished what should have been a really exciting time for our family.

> And that was enough for you was it Stooge - with only pet names given with the results?

No, I would still want to check it out but these were not my greatest concerns about the whole set up so, personally, I probably would not even have got to that stage :)

Stooge - Do you mean you wouldn't even go as far as visiting??

Frankly, no. 
The website appears far too commercial for my taste. 
If you want honesty, I would always be looking for someone who has achieved something with their dogs, either in the show ring or working field, as I feel this is a stronger incentive for breeding a good quality litter, in terms of health and type and of the right temperament for their own purposes, which you may also benefit from, than the prospect of a few hundred quid.
To that end I would definately be using the Assured Breeder Scheme list but I would also be looking for these other attributes.  Thankfully, the scheme facilitates this by noting which breeder have stud book achievements and belong to breed clubs which takes you further along the search.

Many thanks for the advice Stooge.

By the way, where did you find out that they were an Assured Breeder. The KC haven't got them registered on their list as Assured, however you can leave your name off, but I couldn't imagine them NOT wanting their name on the KC site. Also pups do not appeared to have been registered with the KC yet.

Their website says that they're 'KC Accredited Breeders' but there aren't any on the KC website in their county , and it further says "If the county you wish to search is not listed, it means there are no Kennel Club Assured Breeders available." ....

Can you search the KC site for Assured Breeders?  I thought you could only search for Assured Breeders who were chosing to use the litter notification facility.
You can email the Kennel Club for a list though, I believe.

>Can you search the KC site for Assured Breeders?

This page suggests that you can. As AlisonGold says, you can choose to have your name left off that service, but why would you?

I searched the full list of kc assured breeders in all areas for that breed using the phone number on their website. It shows a match.

i couldnt find when i looked!

Where is the list searchable by phone number?  Can you show me?

I've read through all the posts on here with interest. To me, the bottom line is that if you have such lack of communication from the breeder at this stage you're unlikely to get any help and advice once you've taken a puppy home. You were concerned enough about this breeder to post on here, so trust your instincts, ask for your deposit back and walk away. I've just raised a litter of 9 puppies as well as having a houseful of adult dogs. I've managed to make time to answer all emails and phone calls promptly as well as posting more photos on my website. We all have busy lives but good communication is very important when selling puppies, both from the point of view of the breeder and the buyer.

There is only one accredited breeder showing in their area. e-mail address is different but presume it's the same person?

OP- you said in an early post that one of the reasons you chose this breeder was because they're local (not a good reason imo but hey ho) so why don't you just go and visit?

Yes, local as in not the other end of the country or a 7 hour drive. however as you rightly say that wasn't the only reason I gave!  As you will see I researched and researched and I have also gone on to say I set a radius of 2 hours each way travel that I had wanted to stick to, and the reason I had for choosing these was certainly not they are local, a journey of 2 hours isn't local to me but I realistically wanted the best dog I could get from, what I considered, the best breeder within a distance I would be able to regularly visit. Isn't that sensible???

So hey ho!

Previous posts have discussed why no visit have happened yet.

If I was that concerned about the money, I would have visited. I can't get back to the 1st page of this topic but you did say that being local was among the reasons for choosing them. I would not be sending money to any breeder without visiting them first. As has been said, how would you know you like the mum's temperament, the pups themselves and how they are being raised (plus check paperwork) if you don't do this first? I would also be wary of a breeder who would just take my money without meeting me first, even if you did fill out a questionnaire. People can be very different in the flesh.

I don't know how hard you researched if other posters are able to find quite easily that they appear akin to a puppy farmer, that they only post dogs' pet names on the website so you can't check health test results, etc? Perhaps you could have posted in the Searching section for a well bred puppy of that breed.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but the mistakes made seem more like what I would expect of Joe Public who is not clued-up.

Oh don't worry about your post sounds harsh, your first post was ill informed as is this one.

You state you can't get back to the original post, therefore how on earth do you know what I am truly concerned about? It certainly wasn't the money FYI it was the lack of contact from the breeder.

To be perfectly frank I am "joe public", I am not a breeder and I am not a dog owner, rather I am someone who wants a dog, perhaps my research was not as intensive as it could have been, I certainly didn't think it wasn't at the outset of this post. At this point it is worth noting the people who have found info online are all from this website and either breeders or already have dogs and have gone through the process therefore they know where to access information more so than I.

I followed guides on the KC, which I appreciate isn't fully comprehensive but it is a good start, or so I thought! From my "limited" research I can say that all breeders have assured me they can take me through the entire process and being a trusting type (although I have already been criticised for showing trust), I believed the breeder.

Thank you for your input, always great to have an opinion from someone with less than half the facts.
Perhaps you are one of those people who knows everything, perhaps you just enjoy criticising people who don't know everything, who knows. Either way I am not sure you can make opinionated comments having not read my original query.

JAzPER it looks to me like you did what research you thought was right at the time.

You aren't as experienced as many people on this site but I'm sure you have learnt alot since your first post, both about choosing a breeder and the expectations of some people here on Champdogs.

The question is now, what are you going to do? Will you be requesting a visit or your deposit back?

I'm just curious because it's such a difficult position your in now and this situation must have taken out all the excitement of having a first puppy.

(((Jazper))) sad to see another person hounded on this site. Witch hunt. When one poster has said what you think why repeat it folks, all adding to it makes it a witch hunt. You did what you thought was a thorough job Jazper, I really hope most of all that you find a lovely healthy dog for your family sometime soon - you will have worked for it. You've done so much more than most of the general public who use their local paper or freead sites.

When one poster has said what you think why repeat it folks, all adding to it makes it a witch hunt.

No, it merely shows that it is a majority opinion, whatever the subject. If one single person replies and says something, another person posts and disagrees, and those that agree with either side keep quiet, how is a poster to know what is the most common opinion? It doesn't matter what subject you post on, there will always be at least one person who disagrees with the rest.

JAzPEr,
I have stayed out of this up until now as didnt think I had anything worth saying but.... I have read all your posts and feel for you. You have done everything to find a healthy dog that the KC tells you to. a 4 hour round trip is not close, especially to someone who is not used to driving the length and bredth of the country to dog shows etc so a valid distance and certainly not on your doorstep (80 - 120 miles away depending on which roads you use)
I just want to say I applaud you as a novice for trying to do everything right and am sorry it has turned sour.
Where are you going to go from here???
How much deposit did you put down (sorry you may have said)
If you are going to walk away then ask on here for a breeder of the dog you want as there are alot of people on here with a mind of information, and someone of us can point you in the direction of good breeders that will help get the trust back in breeders, even if they are only able to help you find a breeder if they dont have any pups due in the forseeable future.
What ever you do GOOD LUCK.
Lea :) :)

No, it merely shows that it is a majority opinion, whatever the subject. If one single person replies and says something, another person posts and disagrees, and those that agree with either side keep quiet, how is a poster to know what is the most common opinion? It doesn't matter what subject you post on, there will always be at least one person who disagrees with the rest. .

I dispute that is the reason people are posting. If they were posting to say they agree with the majority posting they would have said "I'm agree with x, y and z that you should have" but instead they are asking the same questions "why did you .. x y and z". People aren't even bothering to read the whole thread, they are just lumping their posts in criticising and questioning repeating what others have said and asked, questions already answered by Jazper but they haven't bothered to read and see the answers they are just are mouthing off.

And yes here on this site it will be the majority of opinion as this site has mostly owners of show dogs the majority of which believe that only show dogs should be bred from and everyone else is inferior and wrong. Jazper didn't probably realise that this is what this site is about when they arrived and made the mistake that they would get advice and guidance rather than a heap of criticism and people who can't be bothered to read a thread before adding their own superior holier than though comments.

And yes here on this site it will be the majority of opinion as this site has mostly owners of show dogs the majority of which believe that only show dogs should be bred from and everyone else is inferior and wrong. Jazper didn't probably realise that this is what this site is about when they arrived and made the mistake that they would get advice and guidance rather than a heap of criticism and people who can't be bothered to read a thread before adding their own superior holier than though comments.

You don't think the name CHAMP Dogs is a bit of a give away?!

Once a thread has become really long, it's often impossible to go back to the start and read the first posts.

> Once a thread has become really long, it's often impossible to go back to the start and read the first posts.

Yes that is a problem with this thread - it has got so long that people are finding it hard to keep track of what has been said and have missed where the OP has given answers already to their question. This would happen on any forum discussing any subject in the world so has nothing to do with members wanting to criticise or "make holier than thou" comments for the sake of it. As it is, anyone reading the whole of this thread can see there have been plenty of really helpful, informative posts and lots of support for the OP given both on the thread and privately using the message system - seems a little unfair for some members to focus solely on the few posts expressing criticism ;-)

I'll close this for now but JAzPER is welcome to start a new thread later, perhaps to post an update on the situation after she/he has visited this kennel.