But they are refusing you, you have the right to know the parents even before you decide to have the puppy, walk away, forget the deposit and don't risk getting a pup from this source. An expensive lesson but you should have all this info before you ask to be put on the list and no respectable breeder would ask for a deposit before you had seen them and they you.

As said there are 90 litters on this site so they are not difficult to find and you deserve the best no need to settle for buying from someone who is trying to sell you something blind.

I'm sorry but alarm bells are ringing for you too, in my opinion.  Get off your butt and go and visit your pup! Why would you put a deposit on a dog you haven't even seen?  I'm sorry but we are only hearing one side of the story and although it does sound iffy, you wouldn't get a pup off me unless you visited first.  Someone who had handed over cash with no questions, wouldn't be top of my list as a terribly good owner.  My opinion.

Stooge, I went to visit a litter being advertised near me.  At that time, the breed I was involved in was very rare so everyone knew everyone and this person was 'known' but no-one knew who had let her used their dog at stud so I visited.  I asked to see the pedigree of the pups and was handed a typed pedigree which looked very professional but when I looked closer, the dams side was fine but the sire's side was completely invented.  In fact, the dog she had down as the sires dam was actually a Dog and not a bitch!! I did point this out and was very quickly shown the door!

Carcar.  Yes, there are alarm bells ringing because of the advice on this site, my original question was is it normal for the level of silence following the pups birth, since then lots of things have been raised.

If you had read the post in totality you would see that I did huge amount of research and the breeder was very receptive and open and gave lots of info, they also took lots - much more than the many many other breeders I had spoken to previously, there really was nothing to worry about the taking of so much info reassured me if anything.

As a potential new owner I wasn't aware how unethical some demands by are i.e. deposits must be paid upfront. I did not buy this dog blindly I have spent 2 years looking for the right dog, 6 mths of this waiting for pups to be born - I would have thought that doesn't make me a bad owner rather - why should it ??   I spent a great deal of time nad energy exploring dogs and breeders, surely that means I have done as much as I can, buying dogs must, surely, involve an element of trust????

> I don't want to breach the contract I have entered into as I will be writing off these funds

You won't.  Because these are "goods unseen" you are entitled to your money back.  Just ask for it.  If they do not immediately offer it, speak to Trading Standards but my suspicion is this sort of place prefers not to have any of that sort of fuss, to stay under the radar and will give you it without quibble.
The deposit is alarmingly large but, on the other hand, nothing in comparison to ending up with a pet that has a temperament or health issues that will bring great sadness and expense to your family.

> Stooge, I went to visit a litter being advertised near me.  At that time, the breed I was involved in was very rare so everyone knew everyone and this person was 'known' but no-one knew who had let her used their dog at stud so I visited.  I asked to see the pedigree of the pups and was handed a typed pedigree which looked very professional but when I looked closer, the dams side was fine but the sire's side was completely invented.  In fact, the dog she had down as the sires dam was actually a Dog and not a bitch!! I did point this out and was very quickly shown the door!

Goodness, I thought this one had gone to bed around the same time I did! :)
I do not doubt this happens but the point is whether any harm done justifies stifling the sort of information that puppy buyers should be expecting these days, encouraged to expect.  Particularly when you consider, this information is available anyway.

Nobody is criticising you, JazPER, we know it can be a minefield getting the right dog for your family but, because of that, it does make sense to take the advise of people with a lot more experience.

buying dogs must, surely, involve an element of trust????

Well no, what do you need to trust, you can find out everything about the pups ancestors before you decide to buy the only thing you would need to take on trust is that the breeder will be there for you and interested in the puppy for the length of its life and that can be judged by asking others in the breed.

No trust needed you can check on the quality of the pups by studying the pedigree and the quality of its care by looking at the litter, no trust required there.

You can find out about the breeder by asking around their peers and looking at the dogs they have bred in the past.

Yes, JAzPER, but you still haven't visited the breeders premises or your pup.  This is a major comittment that will hopefully be in your family for the next 10-15 yrs.  Longer than most marriages! Would you marry a guy you met on the internet dating site without getting to know him a bit first? Cos that's what you are doing.  How do you know you even LIKE your pup?  I have picked a pup for a family before but when they came to visit when the pup was old enough, they didn't take to him and liked another instead.  Sometimes a pup just chooses you and you get that gut feeling.
I didn't mean to be brisk before but I woke up to a PM from you (not that I minded that) and I know you have been PMing others so if you don't feel it's right, walk away.  You haven;t seen this pup or any of the older dogs, how do you know this is the right breeder?
As others have said, it can look great on paper or website but that's not to say they are as good as you thing(or as bad either).  My last pup was from word of mouth, the breeder had no website and no clue really except love of dogs and a great mentor.  Had I shopped about for a fantastic website, I would have missed my fabulous dog.  Sometimes you can look too hard?
Did you PM LJS? That is the person to ask about wether you are at the right door or not.
Also, Stooge is correct, you have 28 days.  Also, because you paid with paypal, get them to start a dispute.  I would speak to the breeder first though as it might just be a misunderstanding.
I do hope you get the pup you want.
Best of luck.

Thanks Stooge. I understand that but to be fair it's really annoying when I am told that I would not be a good owner because I gave them monies based on trust and faith.

I really did jump through hoops in terms of giving all details and speaking to each breeder I had a list of questions (which grew as my experience of speaking to breeders grew). I ruled out travel over two hours because visiting after the pups were born would be difficult and too long to do with enough regularity.   I absolutely avoided going to any website other than this one and KC looking for a pup.  This breeder was open, upfront and friendly and, as far as I could tell, honest.  Only after the pups were born and they were no longer contactable by phone / email did I come on here wanting advice.

This site and the advice has been very supportive, one the whole, however it feels as though some comments assume potential owners just call up expecting a pup same day, this certainly wasn't the case with me  (and I am sure I am not alone in that).

I spent a great deal of time nad energy exploring dogs and breeders, surely that means I have done as much as I can, buying dogs must, surely, involve an element of trust????

I feel so upset for you as blindly what you think is research isn't worth a penny. :-(

Researching a breed is great, well done :-)

Contacting different breeders is great well done. :-)

Booking a pup without meeting the breeder, the dam (the sire if possible) without seeing the relevant health test certificates and most importantly the pedigrees for yourself is crazy. Sorry but the most important things you haven't done.

If someone highly recommends a breeder you can probably trust that if they say a pup has these things it is ok, but not from someone you have only sourced via a website, it's crazy.

To leave your hard earned money with someone you have never met especially when they live locally, which is why you said it tipped the balance for you to choose them, I can not understand why you didn't just go and visit.  Why did you not go and visit, particularly as you say you were made to register and sign a contact, if local you could have done it all in person and then probably run a mile when you saw what kind of place it may have been.

Many of us book pups hundreds and sometimes thousands of miles away, but you go and visit if you do not know the breeder via reputation you give yourself time to do that, it needs to be a part of choosing your breeder and pup, more so than what you felt to be so important in choosing.

A deposit if taken should be left in person if you do not know the breeder just to cover yourself, if everyone followed these rules half the scams and puppy farmer funding that happen just would not happen.

As the pups are only 4 weeks old and you only booked the pup 2 weeks ago a decent breeder would refund as there is still plenty of time to find a new owner, and let's face it neither of you has met the other so you are just a faceless buyer to them.

A deposit is a contract they could be stubborn and keep your money and you then need to go to court to see if you can redeem it, if they are the type of breeder they are perceived to possibly be your money will not be returned and as others have said just walk away and leave it as a lesson learned.

If I were you I would go to the premises and do this all face to face, that way you can decide on what action to take on what you see and feel there.

Who knows we could all be wrong, you may find the pedigree,  health tests, dam, pups and people to be fine, but you won't know unless you go and see, you need to go there. :-)

Sorry stooge, I am agreeing with you in a roundabout way!lol. I, too, think pedigrees and scores and everything should be available to Joe Public.  Why not? It's only hidden if you have something to hide!  I advertise my pedigrees and health scores in the open web.
I just wanted to point out that it does happen but only if you go to BYB's.

Thanks Nova - perhaps the point being missed is that I am a first time owner, therefore I am not entirely aware that I can do that, infact it's only been comments on here that have made me aware of it.  On the whole I am not an overly suspicious person so yes, I would want to trust a person I was conducting a financial transaction with.

Cracar, I paid cash, as I had mentioned earlier. Thanks for your advice.

Carrington - I haven't signed a contract, not sure I did say that at all???  I said I had completed an application form before the pups were born to go onto their waiting list.  The contract has not been provided to me as yet.   They are not local to me, they are just under 2 hours away (that was the most I can travel back and forth each way for visits).

Carcar - The reason I had not visited the pups is because the dog was pg when I completed the application and the owner said she was not really up to having visitors (she isn't the first breeder who has said they limit visitors when mum is pg so I didn't think unusual!).  I was also told once pups born I would not be able to visit for first 4/5 weeks, again I respected the breeder.

For anyone who thinks I am starting to feel defensive so am signing off - thanks for the supportive comments, if there are people who think new owners - it's a crying shame that someone coming on here, to experienced owners and breeders, seeking advice can be treated as though they have done something wrong!  Shocking!

JAzPER, Please don't feel that way.  It is easy to forget that you are a first time dog owner and are not privvy to the facts that we are.  I apologise.
How old are the pups?  I don't have anyone visiting till the pups are 4 weeks.  By that time, mums had enough and wants someone else to occupy their time!lol.  If you are now recieving e-mails from the breeder, why are you still concerned?  She may just have been busy right enough? Over-sight maybe?
Why not give her a phone and tell her how you feel?  Let her know that you are so excited that you want kept in the loop and can't wait to visit your pup and see how the land lies?
What you need to remember is, we deal with liars and cheats everyday.  People will tell you anything when it comes to money and what they want.  Sometimes that makes me a bit judgemental and sharp.  I'm always looking for the worst in people:(

Give her a ring and then come back on here and let us know if you feel better or worse about your breeder.

Also, it's a great site for help with new puppy problems like feeding, training and such.  Don't leave because I'm a moody mare in the mornings!lol

> the breeder was very receptive and open and gave lots of info,

They gave you no real info, they appear to have flannelled you, if you do not even know the names of the parents. 

As a breeder I am proud of the puppies I breed (the achievements of the parents) and would want to give that information without asking (if it wasn't already on my site). 

As has been said the breed your considering is bred in huge numbers.  type is extremely varied between show and working, and even among the various lines, so having a potential owner want to know pedigree details should be expected as else how would they know the type of the breed to expect the pup to grow into.

Now they have your money and with a visit to see irresistible pups they know your likely to cave in when you see them.

Had I not made contact with a breeder and seen their dogs before a litter was born, I would want to know as much about the litter 'cold' before I ever set eyes on them so as to avoid the inevitable temptation.

Oh and as for sending a deposit blind, I did with my first dog, from a very reputable breeder (not my present breed), and had opted to pay in instalments before the pup was kindly delivered to me, very naive, but turned out to be kosher.

Difference being I had already researched the breeder (I'm a bit of a geek) through their breed club, (I knew about these from being involved with showing Pedigree Rabbits) knew they showed their dogs and had a good reputation among their peers.

seeking advice can be treated as though they have done something wrong!  Shocking!

JAzPER, you are bound to get defensive because you are having pointed out the pitfalls in how you have sourced this breeder, yes, you will take that as though some of us are telling you that you have done things wrong and of course that hurts. I am telling you that things were not done to cover yourself and to source the best pup if that hurts you just have to listen and learn from it.

I don't blame you, it is just frustrating how many people fall into these traps and I wish that yourself and others would come on sites like this before being scammed or used by a puppy farmer. (If this is the case)

We will help as much as we can, but we obviously will point out what has gone wrong, it is not in the interest of yourself or anyone else reading the thread not to know what has gone potentially wrong in choosing a breeder and pup.

So don't get upset with the comments that make you feel that you are being told you were wrong as it is how you learn to do things right in the future.

Let us know how things turn out. :-)

JAzPER,

There are wider implications of all this.

As a first time owner you will need and expect help, guidance and support all through the puppyhood at least.
We are often amazed when puppy owners come on here to ask the most basic of questions, questions which any decent breeder should be at the end of a phone to answer.
It seems very unlikely that you would be offered this, a huge loss to a first time owner.

"If my dogs details were ever used then it can always be checked for validity with the KC."

Not if your dogs details were used to construct a pedigree that was then registered with a certain other club as oppose to with the KC.

"There are several all-breed databases online"

Actually, that is very true ;-)

Out of interest, have all the litters listed on this site been verified? As in, people know they are genuine, show their animals, do all the health tests etc. and are home bred and socialised as they describe? Or can anyone advertise here?

> Not if your dogs details were used to construct a pedigree that was then registered with a certain other club as oppose to with the KC.

Well anyone doing their research would realise those details are highly suspect, so it would not bother me to much, as long as everything straight where it matters.

> Or can anyone advertise here?

Admin on this site require breeders to follow their breed clubs codes of ethics re health tests, ages of bitches etc, and do ask for verification.

This is when individual litters are advertised, but a listing of your website I don't think does (could be wrong).

> Can someone please tell me if the name of this place begins with a W and they have 'reduced puppies' as one of their pages?

No, they do not begin with a W.

I know what you are saying brainless and maybe I am thinking about this too much.. but I just hate the idea that a wealth of information readily available on the internet can, inadvertently, assist the puppy farmers in their vile practices.

I have seen someone listed on here (paid member) who not only breeds their listed breed, but also crossbreeds. Is that ok with admin?

> but I just hate the idea that a wealth of information readily available on the internet can, inadvertently, assist the puppy farmers in their vile practices.

I think the opposite.  A wealth of information assists the public to understand better what a good breeder is and does more to defeat the BYBs and puppy farmers than any danger of stolen details that cause very little impact.

> I have seen someone listed on here (paid member) who not only breeds their listed breed, but also crossbreeds. Is that ok with admin?

Dangerous territory  :)  I can't really see a blanket rule can be justified.  Working dog breeders may wish to try out crosses such as sprokers for specific working conditions, lurchers are another instance that may be legitimate, however I have seen one breeder on here advertising herself as a breeder of "Chorkies" on her website linked from Champdogs and can't really see the justification for that. 

"I think the opposite.  A wealth of information assists the public to understand better what a good breeder is and does more to defeat the BYBs and puppy farmers than any danger of stolen details that cause very little impact"

I agree, but at the same time it does give unscrupulous people access to such information which may then be abused.

"Working dog breeders may wish to try out crosses such as sprokers for specific working conditions, lurchers are another instance that may be legitimate,"

Yes, I appreciate that and agree such crossing is purposeful. :-)

Cavlover,

We can not be judge and jury over what people breed we can only ok pups advertised as adhered to by the rules on the site. :-)

None pedigree dogs not advertised on the site are nothing to do with us, I guess if admin had solid proof of a puppy farmer rearing dogs in bad conditions etc they would be struck off but it needs to be proof not just hearsay and if the rules put in place were broken again they can be struck off and many seem to be. :-)

But breeding outside of the site is nothing admin can control, crossbreeds are not outlawed so if people wish to breed them it is up to them. :-)

"crossbreeds are not outlawed so if people wish to breed them it is up to them."

Lol you wouldn't think so on here sometimes ;-)

I know :-D ............. tbh it's the inflated prices and silly names which cause uproar, it's all such a con which gets people's blood boiling. (Including mine :-) )

Most of us have had and even have cross breeds and heinz 57's, just so upsetting to see people being led astray into believing they have some super 'new' breed, which costs more than a well reared pedigree.

It's the taking of people for fools which causes steam from some of our heads. :-)

Just tagging on to the end here, not relying to anyone in particular. I am one who do not like to have pedigrees available online, because there HAVE been cases of people stealing them. I used to have a breeder's website bookmarked where they gave details of one such case of how their pedigrees had been stolen and used by somebody else , but unfortunately the site is no longer there.

I do have pedigrees on CD as you are asked to do that, but I have never been 100 % comfortable with it. I do not have full pedigrees on my own website and never will. HOWEVER, I have all my dogs' registered name, health tests, major show wins etc on my site, and if I have a litter for sale I give as much details as only possible (except the full pedigree) and anyone wanting to see the full pedigree can be e-mailed it.   How could anyone ever show interest in a pup without knowing the parents' registered names?? It's VERY handy to not only be able to check health test results on the KC website (For SOME breeds, not all -my toybreed does not have results listed) but by Googling names of parents you will also find out if they are being shown with any success.

No not all the litters on this site are from health tested parents, nor breeders adhering to the breed club's ethics, nor showing their dogs. It is the responsibility of the puppy buyer to establish the facts about a breeder.

"tbh it's the inflated prices and silly names which cause uproar, it's all such a con which gets people's blood boiling. (Including mine  )

Most of us have had and even have cross breeds and heinz 57's, just so upsetting to see people being led astray into believing they have some super 'new' breed, which costs more than a well reared pedigree.

It's the taking of people for fools which causes steam from some of our head"

Totally agree :-(

Hello everyone - thank you for coming the apologies, I am clearly very touchy about this as I have been too trusting - sorry for being so defensive earlier!

cacar - The breeder was finally in contact after several emails last night, after I asked a few Q's they accused me of not trusting them and followed by a !, clearly they are very annoyed with me, however since my last mail they have remained silent. They have not been answering the phones for several weeks now and I have been leaving messages, which are never replied to.  I too thought they are just busy as the pups are turning 5 weeks this week and although concerned I didn't want to keep on at them, it was only seeing their posts on utube I realised that if they have time to do that they should be making contact with me too.

I would be concerned regarding visiting them now and I do feel this is one to write off, as lots of the other posts on here suggest too. Before I do this I will be asking the KC, who they are, how they can assured by them when this is how they behave. I will also be contacting trading standards to see what they say too.

So now you have come to a decision on what you want to do. I would e-mail them asking for your deposit to be paid back in full as they are not providing the service that you have paid for. Give them 14 days to respond and tell them that you will be taking them to the small claims court if they do not return your money. Honestly, having read all the thread you are being fobbed off. The problem is that when/if you go there you would see fluffy pups and would not be able to walk away (something that they rely on to get you to buy a pup). I always allow people to see my dogs (unless they are so far along with the pregnancy at that time). I would always provide a potential puppy owner with photos of Mum and the dog I have used and would provide the pedigree names at the very least then you could do your own research about the pedigree and the health tests. The fact that they are not providing these rings alarm bells for me. It could even be that you will not get to see where the pups are reared which smacks of puppy farming. Do not write your deposit off, you deserve it back. There are plenty of good breeders in your chosen breed of puppy.

"The problem is that when/if you go there you would see fluffy pups and would not be able to walk away (something that they rely on to get you to buy a pup)."

Yes, this is probably why they are saying you can see all the relevant documentation when you visit.... and not before. It would seem they want to get you there first... then you will (they assume) fall in love with the pups and take one regardless.

>the point is whether any harm done justifies stifling the sort of information that puppy buyers should be expecting these days, encouraged to expect.

If people are seriously interested in buying a puppy they can contact the breeder for information so that they can do their research into health tests etc. :-)

In this case the breeder is refusing to provide the information, even after taking a deposit - that's where the problem lies.

> If people are seriously interested in buying a puppy they can contact the breeder for information so that they can do their research into health tests etc.

They could but I do think if it is easy to do that research before that stage you reduce the risk of people being given a load of blarney about whether tests and results are really important, nobody else bothers etc etc and falling for it.

We now know the KC names of sire and dam and I have checked them on the health test finder and all is present and correct it would seem. They will have been microchipped for the purpose of the eye testing which is good for identification purposes.

Their health results are all over their web site so did not really doubt they were ticking those boxes. 
What is a concern, I feel, is their kennel name throws up no results either from the show ring or field so just why are they breeding?  Also, how many are they breeding and how are they rearing them?

Stooge, what do you mean how are they rearing them??  Sorry, being a bit dumb.

rearing means bring them up ie feeding them playing with them making sure alot of different people meet them ,take them out in the car have the tv washing dryer ...so many different sounds, things like this!

how did you find the names of dam/sire ??

That they are being reared to be well adjusted, healthy pets.
Obviously they need to be in reasonably sanitary conditions but they also need to be raised with plenty of socialisation which must include lots of human contact.
It would not trouble me to see larger breed puppies reared in kennels as long as they were spending plent of time with humans and it included time in the house acclimatising them to normal family life. 
They should also continue to have close contact with the mother, if not other dogs, right up to the time they leave in order to continue learning how to interact with other dogs.
It is a worry that they seem more concerned with hygiene issues that letting them meet human beings contrary to the advise given by most experts including the Kennel Club.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2101

>*Have the opportunity to see all the puppies and be able to handle them, rather than just seeing the puppy being offered to you.

But the website states they are home reared in family with kids so there is lots of family interaction, that's reassuring isn't it??

Yeah, we can't touch them, but w/site states they are family reared. 

> But the website states they are home reared in family with kids so there is lots of family interaction, that's reassuring isn't it??

And yet they do not wish you to touch them.  How are you going to be able to assess whether there is truth in their website claim by how the puppies react to handling? 
I would still urge you to contact the Kennel Club and specifically ask if they have been inspected as they appear to be contravening their recommendations on at least that point.

yes if they are! if they are breeding lots of litters at same time how can they give time to each litter/pup?? but if they only have 1 litter at a time and make sure each litter is reard right then would will have a a lovely pet :) you need to go and see the set up :)