"animal husbandry services"

That makes me think of puppy farming in this context, I could be wrong though...

"I think this may be an urban myth as the information is all in the public domain anyway."

I wouldn't agree it is an urban myth, but whatever you say :-)

> "animal husbandry services"
>
> That makes me think of puppy farming in this context, I could be wrong though...

I don't think you could describe puppy farming as animal husbandry services :)  I think it is more likely to mean kennelling or grooming and for that reason I don't feel particularly excited about the limited company aspect of this as many respectable breeders may have an interest in such businesses.

Maybe not - obviously I meant it was a way someone might describe such a practice, in the hope of not being found out ;-) It was the location that got me too, although perhaps we shouldn't put two and two together!

If the pups are old enough a in 5 weeks onwards I'd be expecting to hold an interact with whole litter and also mum! To say that you can't hold your possible puppy until you collect is not good enough. With saying that hand washes and all the other sanitizers they require you and your clothing to go through I'd still expect to handle the litter. Yes Parvo is about in places but to say no handling due to Parvo in the area is another puppy farmer ploy. There are Assured breeders who are puppy farmers, please do not get a puppy from this place!!

I'm with Suejaw, if you can't visit/handle the pups at 5 weeks, walk away.  I actively encourage visitors to my pups wether they are owners of the pups or not.  Not particularly keen on a lot of kids and only let my kids handle the pups when supervised but adults are welcome anytime.  You might get handed a plate of food or a mop and bucket but you'd certainly be welcome.
When I had pups booked with my last litter, I had my phone sat beside the whelping box and was ringing/get called from puppy owners as it was happening and e-mails/photos were flying back and forth till it was time to visit the pups.  I would walk away from anyone not willing to provide this friendship.  What if something happens to the pup or you? That is not the type of breeder to help your pup out after it's away.  I've taken pups while owners are on hols or hospital and have taken back pups that families can't keep.  You need to know that you have some sort of after-service too.  That is the caring breeder!
I also wouldn't take a pup from kennels.  I like my pups to be born and bred in the home so they are used to house-hold noises and drama.  A kenneled pup won't be as confident as a house pup. My opinion, for what it's worth.
There is a few people with this breed on here, LJS for one, who would help you out no end with a good honest breeder.  Cut your losses if you are not 100%
Edited to add - you have 28days if you buy an item unseen to get a refund.  As this is what you have done, paypal will help you to get your deposit back.  Don't just leave it.  Why should they have your well-earned money for a rubbish service?

> Some breeders prefer not to have their dogs pedigrees on the Internet simply because unscrupulous, puppy farmer types can copy them and use them for themselves....
> I think this may be an urban myth as the information is all in the public domain anyway.

Many yrs ago I sold a puppy (male) to someone who appeared to be ideal. A few months later I met a lady with a puppy who was a bit confused about it's pedigree so I offered to check it for her and lo and behold it was one of mine! There was no way that the pedigree was correct,it had been  "sold" to someone to use on their own litter of pups. That was before the Internet was widely available so I would think pinching pedigree info is a lot more common now.

> That was before the Internet was widely available

I don't mean it does not happen, I mean it is an urban myth that this will happen if you put your dogs name on a web site, the information can be taken from a number of sources and probably always happened occasionally.

Annoying and upsetting though it may be, they have not stolen the dog :) and any misuse that comes to light can be easily refuted.

If pedigrees, or at least full Kennel Club names, are not published how can the interested person access important resources such as the Kennel Club health checker? 

Lack of information and, therefore, the lack of an ability to use resources such as these, together with checking show or working results appears to me to be a feature common to BYBs and puppy farmers and much less common amongst breeders with rather more to be proud of :)

Get your money back and run like the wind.

A good breeder will happily give out details of their dogs pedigree etc - to a genuinely interested party. It is their choice as to whether they publish them on their website for all and sundry to see.
Not having your dogs pedigree on your website does not indicate someone is a puppy farmer!

"That was before the Internet was widely available so I would think pinching pedigree info is a lot more common now"

Indeed, roscoebabe.

> Not having your dogs pedigree on your website does not indicate someone is a puppy farmer!

I didn't say it was, just my observation as to what I most commonly see. 
If you are going to give your details to enquirers I can't see the point of not putting it on your website to save people the trouble.

"I don't mean it does not happen,"

Which is all I was saying Stooge - it can and does happen - it is therefore not an "urban myth"!

Stooge, there is nothing wrong with happily sharing your dogs info with genuinely interested people, but opting not to place pedigrees on your website for anyone (including puppy farmers/commercial breeders) to potentially get their hands on.
I like to know who I am talking to before I divulge too much info - not because I have anything to hide, but They might!

I think I have already explained that I am not saying the filtching of details is an urban myth.  I am saying I think it is an urban myth that it happens because details are published on peoples websites.
Full kennels names have always been published in the BRS, Breed Club Yearbooks, Catalogues and show reports in the national dog press.  Why be coy on your web page?

The average puppy farmer would be far more likely to search the internet for pedigrees to poach (free of charge, they can remain anonymous and it is instantly accessible) than to purchase a BRS or other such publications. Blimey, most of them wouldn't even know what a BRS was, nor would it occur to them to try and get their hands on a Breed club yearbook.

Just out of interest, Stooge, if someone phoned you and started asking lots of questions about your breeding plans etc but refused to give you their name, would you divulge all the info they wanted regardless?
Similarly, if you received a probing email but they did not give their name or any info about themselves, would you reply with lots of detail?
Most breeders I know will ignore one line emails that do not give any clue as to who the sender is.
Therefore, they choose whom they want to share some of their info with - that info might include pedigrees of breeding/showing stock.

> The average puppy farmer would be far more likely to search the internet for pedigrees to poach (free of charge and instantly accessible) than to purchase a BRS or other such publications. Blimey, most of them wouldn't even know what a BRS was, nor would it occur to them to try and get their hands on a Breed club yearbook.
>

It seems to me if you were going to the trouble of filtching someones dogs name you would want to choose one in the winning, so maybe not the BRS but definately the dog papers of a yearbook otherwise you may as well just use your own dogs name or make one up.

> Just out of interest, Stooge, if someone phoned you and started asking lots of questions about your breeding plans etc but refused to give you their name

Probably not although why they would not make up a name I do not know :). 

However, we are not talking about giving out our plans just our dogs names

> Similarly, if you received a probing email but they did not give their name or any info about themselves, would you reply with lots of detail?

Depends what you mean my probing but again bit odd if they did not give their name.

Send me a PM . I have had a look and there are too many alarm bells on some of the statements on the site so suggest asking for your money back and go and find another breeder.

"It seems to me if you were going to the trouble of filtching someones dogs name you would want to choose one in the winning"

Not necessarily, just one that existed with a 5 generation pedigree would suffice for a puppy farmer.

"Depends what you mean my probing but again bit odd if they did not give their name"

Indeed. But by putting specific pedigree information on a website you are granting people access to it -  without them having to identify themselves.

> Not necessarily, just one that existed with a 5 generation pedigree would suffice for a puppy farmer.

We are not talking about 5 generation pedigrees just the full kennel name although the rest of the pedigree is, as I say, in the public domain anyway.

It's only a name they can't steal the dog :)  The value of being able to check a dog's health status and achievements far outweighs this risk which isn't really a risk as far as I can see.  The Kennel Club have created these resources for a reason and the use of them should be encouraged. 

A quick glance at the breeders of Cavaliers here on Champdogs and their websites appears to confirm they share my view :)

Would agree with LJS about some iffy info on this website.

I am not sure why they wouldn't have all their dogs listed on the website, you have no way for instance, of knowing how many bitches they have, what their health test status is, or what their breeding plans are. Also, do they mate all of their bitches to their one stud dog? (I know there is a young dog also), There is one litter on the ground, and another due soon, so who are the parents? All the website says is that there are pups available... you have no more information than if you purchased from a pet shop!

To the OP, I think if you had a chance to visit, you should take it, as not all websites give good information. I would take the opportunity, make up your own mind, and if you don't like anything, just walk away...

> I am not sure why they wouldn't have all their dogs listed on the website,

Because they don't like probing maybe? :)

Can I please ask that nobody names the breed on this thread - not because it's advertising but because it makes the kennel more easily identifiable. Anyone who wants to know the breed, please PM the OP. All further mentions of the breed will be deleted ;-)

Thanks

Dog breeder seems to have come out of hiding today and has finally sent pics, albeit none with mum.  Think I will go visit and see what the score / set up is.  It does make me feel uncomfortable with everything that's gone on but I think I am a little more clued up having read through these responses.  Many thanks everyone!

"Because they don't like probing maybe?"

Nothing wrong with probing Stooge - provided your reasons are admirable. ;-)
The pedigree names of my dogs are on my website btw ;-) just not their full five generation pedigrees as they are too easy for dubious people to copy. If anyone with a genuine interest in my breeding would like to see copies of their pedigrees then that is absolutely fine by me. All they have to do is ask :-) :-)

I know someone (different breed) who had placed an advert on the internet with a direct link to their website. That advert was copied and pasted in full - website link included, by scammers. Breeder only realised this when he had a puppy enquiry from someone who had seen "his" Ad on a website he knew he had placed one on.... after a phone call to the relevant website (one of those free ad types I think it was) it came to light that these people were poaching puppy ads even though they had no puppies to sell (they weren't even based in this country apparently). Presumably, in the hope that they would get people to send them deposits..... can't think of any other reason behind it.

The point I am making is that you have to be careful what info you put out there - ok, they can't poach your dog, but they could benefit from your openness.

Anyway, enough already ;-)

To JazPER, if I were you I would go along with a view to getting your deposit back. Photos can be easily poached from the internet too, but at least if you go along you will have a better idea of what is going on here. Good luck!

"I am not sure why they wouldn't have all their dogs listed on the website"

There are some top show people in many breeds who kennel their dogs and couldn't possibly list all their bitches and dogs on their websites. If they did, one could get the impression they were a puppy farmer. ;-)

Just had a look at their website. I see they mention health testing with results. Unfortunately, with only pet names given, this really means nothing as it cannot be verified. Have you asked for the KC reg names of sire and dam? At least then you could check them on the KC health test finder.
And it goes without saying, if you do visit, ask to see all the relevant paperwork.

>It's only a name they can't steal the dog

No - but they can steal the dog's reputation, and that of its true owner.

> No - but they can steal the dog's reputation, and that of its true owner.

I think that is very unlikely.  I am struggling to think of a single instance where this has happened.

"I know someone (different breed) who had placed an advert on the internet with a direct link to their website. That advert was copied and pasted in full - website link included, by scammers. Breeder only realised this when he had a puppy enquiry from someone who had seen "his" Ad on a website he knew he had placed one on."

Sorry, quoting myself here but it was too late to edit it... this should have said "Breeder only realised this when he had a puppy enquiry from someone who had seen "his" Ad on a website he knew he hadn't placed one on.

I'm not sure what your point is there, Cavlover.  People should not place advertisements?
Might it have been one of those websites that "scrape" in advertisement from other sites?

Stooge, my point is simple - that unscrupulous people do indeed poach information from the internet !

No, this was definitely a scammer..... the people who copied and pasted the Ad had no puppies to sell and were relying on innocent people to utilise the contact method directly via the puppy ad site - as oppose to the private website link on the Ad, which is how the scammers were ultimately found out. The only thing the scammers changed on the ad was the location of the puppies, they claimed they were in London, when in fact they were up north.

> Stooge, my point is simple - that unscrupulous people do indeed poach information from the internet !
>

AT the risk of repeating myself :), I have never said they didn't, just that the information is freely available elsewhere so why worry about it? 
The benefits of making it easy for people, and therefore much more expected, to check out the health results and awards of peoples dogs far outweighs a risk of something that is unfortunate but does little harm to the breeder and you cannot eradicate anyway.

>I think that is very unlikely.  I am struggling to think of a single instance where this has happened.

How would you know? If you asked someone about their 'not-terribly-good' dog's parentage, and they told you the name of a really good dog and a pet-bred bitch, unless you knew he usually sired good quality puppies, and you knew the dog's owner would never allow him to be used on 'pet' bitches, you would be left with the impression that the dog wasn't a worthwhile stud dog, and his owner wasn't fussy. Two reputations damaged.

The more places that details can be found the more likely they are to be taken.

I risk repeating myself also...

If someone is genuinely interested in your breeding then of course freely give out the relevant info so that health testing can be verified etc etc.
But by publishing pedigrees for eg. on the internet you are making it so easy for puppy farmer/scammers to steal that information and I agree, ultimately innocent peoples reputations could be damaged... even if it just leaves someone in a degree of doubt about them, the damage has been done.

> If you asked someone about their 'not-terribly-good' dog's parentage, and they told you the name of a really good dog and a pet-bred bitch, unless you knew he usually sired good quality puppies, and you knew the dog's owner would never allow him to be used on 'pet' bitches, you would be left with the impression that the dog wasn't a worthwhile stud dog, and his owner wasn't fussy. Two reputations damaged.

I have plenty experience of people asking me in the street or on walks where my dogs came from, who bred them, but can't recall ever being asked who the sire was.

I think to lose reputation this sort of misinformation has to be rather more widespread than is likely to occur from people asking that sort of thing.

It would not mean a thing to the average person and what are the chances of someone in the know actually bumping into such an offspring?  If I did I think it would be intrigued enough to have an actual look at how he had been used before I took the story to market.

Cavlover, you said yourself you put your dogs full names on your website so why are you not practicing what you preach? :)   Sorry that should be preaching what you practice :)

That is all it takes to verify health tests and any show or working awards.  Nobody has to put their full pedigrees.

A certain registry was well known at one point for having dogs with pedigree names of totally different breeds.

For me one of our first imports is on a website of a foreign supposed breeder, stating that it had had a litter of pups etc.  The dog has been dead for a number of years and seeing he was a he it was amazing how he had the litter LOL!

"Nobody has to put their full pedigrees."

Which is what I have been saying all along?

There are several all-breed databases online, so it's not impossible to find enough details to make up a fake pedigree either entirely or just 'borrowing' a sire's or dam's details. Most of the time no reg numbers are given but many people do not know registration numbers have to be given at least for the parents, if not grandparents as well. And if you knew what reg numbers look like, an unscrupulous person could easily make them up, what pet-buyer is going to check?

I mentioned to someone yesterday that I'd enjoyed tracing a breed's history back to the start using one of these databases, and someone else said they wished they had one for their breed. Well, her breed is on there too, and her dogs!

> There are several all-breed databases online, so it's not impossible to find enough details to make up a fake pedigree either entirely or just 'borrowing' a sire's or dam's details.

Very true. The number of large online pedigree databases is increasing all the time - there are quite a few in my breed, many hosted overseas (some set up by breed clubs) which include full pedigree details as well as registration numbers of many UK-bred dogs. When this kind of information is publicly available, it seems totally pointless to worry about naming individual dogs and including their pedigrees on breeder websites.

I put my pedigrees on my website and the dogs full details and health test results.

I would want to know the pedigree of any puppy I was going to want to buy, or breeders dogs I was interested in, so provide that for would be puppy owners.

If my dogs details were ever used then it can always be checked for validity with the KC.

To the original poster ask for the parents names before you visit so you can check with the KC for health test results, and also if you Google their names any show results should come up, even years old.

If they do not show or work any of their dogs (just put the kennel name in Google) then their only reason for breeding is to produce puppies for sale, not to show or work them.

Quality breeding should be as part of a wider interest in your breed and dogs, not the prime interest.

Hi Brainless, I asked for pedigree information and was refused told that I could have when we meet, I was then challenged that I didn't trust them.  Is it acceptable to refuse me information until I do a first visit???

I don't like putting pedigree details online that's why I do not have my dogs listed separately on this site. The least the breeder should give u though beforehand us the parent kc nanes so u can check their health details on the kc website.

Well they wont, I don't know how to force this??

You cannot force them to do anything and as I have suggested just walk away and leave this down to experience .

I would not be forcing it I would be trying to get my money back. The breed you want is bred in thousands every year and you and your family deserve better. Forget this breeder and ask at a few of the many breed clubs or look on the KC puppy list or at the pups available on this site there is no need to be buying from someone who is not giving you the information you have a right to. I would never buy a pup not knowing the registered names of the parents how can you possible know what it is your getting that is the very least you should know.

Once you have the parents names you can check they are registered with the KC, the dam owned by the breeder, and how many litters the dam has had, you can see what health tests the dam and sire have had and be able to check on their backgrounds because once you have a name you can ask about the breeding.

It would worry me because it seems they cant tell you and why cant they tell you probable because they are buying this litter in, do they reckon that the pup will be registered by the KC.

EDIT - there are 90 litters on this site alone - some will not be the right colour - some will be too far but there must be at least a dozen to choose from. Remember you want a breeder you like as well as a puppy because if you get on well with the breeder you have help with you dog for life to say nothing of a friend with a very deep interest in your pet.

Yes, they are saying the parents are KC registered and they will give the info when I go there, not before.  I don't want to breach the contract I have entered into as I will be writing off these funds, I would rather they breached it by refusing to give me info (at present they are not refusing to give me anything, instead telling me I can see all certificates...when I visit).