Yes, like Golden retrievers being Golden, but Labs being yellow, and American cockers being buff, when it's all a pretty similar shade. :-)

When I was registering my first litter with coloured pups (rather than black & white) I asked my bitch's breeder what the difference was between Red, Chocolate and Brown because they are all acceptable on the registration documents. She said it is all the same colour just decide which word you like best !!! Mine are Reds :-)

The problem lies with what name people call a colour and what it is genetically.

Brown or Liver/chocolate is different to Red/Yellow genetically

> Liver, chocolate, brown, red, all the same colour just for different breeds, you'd think there'd be some consistency with colour names wouldn't you?! :-)

Yes absolutely, but being of a geneticky-minded person it's all clear to me...lol... not...Wasn't until recently I understood Welsh Springers aren't Liver/Choc, but ee red. That was a surprise!

If you compare an English Springer and Welsh (I have close links with Welsh) you can see they are not the same colour at all. 

Even the lighter washed out livers that many of the working type ESS are nothing like the lovely bright red that Welsh are, they are brown.

> Brown or Liver/chocolate is different to Red/Yellow genetically

I can put this into simple terms (I hope).
Brown/Liver/Choc are all a mutation on the B (Black) locus which changed black into brown. Genetically it is described as bb.

Red/Yellow is a mutation on the E locus [I believe E stands for Extension - which depending on the mutation, can be Extension of black, or Extension of yellow. All dogs which are ee are yellow, but this can vary from cream through to golden, through to red, through to a very deep red which can be mistaken for liver.

I guess it's unfortunate that some colours in some breeds have been called "red" for so long.... renaming them liver or chocolate would help.

However there are three different "types" of Brown/Liver/Choc now mapped by DNA and obviously some of those are so bright and rufous that they are likened to a 'red' even though they are still genetically a Brown, and still part of the brown/black locus B.

A very reddish brown was discovered in cats some years ago - a real bright foxy shade - named Cinnamon, a relative of Chocolate, which is probably analogous to the very reddish brown shades we see in choc/liver dogs.

I just say "Belgian Tervueren/Belgian Malinois" and let them go home and look it up on Google if they care to

LOL sorry that's my pet hate!! You can spot the breeders NOT in the know by how they advertise their pups -if it says "Belgian Malinois" you know they don't even know the UK name as they are using the US one. Or the puppy enquiries you get for "Belgian Malinois", they are the ones that have seen US websites, US TV programmes, working line adverts (most of which are not reputable -the good working breeders tend not to advertise) etc. So it acts as a red flag to me.

Um um um um from someone who has been on here for a long time and was there to see Ripley go BOB at crufts, I um um still say Mailnoy, and teruvean. I donnot know how to say the different types!!!! (Marianne said them to me, but I stilkll cant remember how to say them!!!!) and I am not a 'novice

Oh as a valued member of the Ripley Fan Club you can call them either Malis or Ripleys. :)  Lots of us do say Mali. And there's LOTS of breeds I cannot pronounce even though my brain knows how they are meant to sound, my mouth cannot say them!

Mal-in-wah

That would be the American way of saying it. (The breed club website in the US even says it is said Malenwah.) It should really be the French way, like Malin-oh-ah.

>It should really be the French way, like Malin-oh-ah.

I wonder why the French would pronounce the  -ois ending differently to the way they do in the name François, for example, where it's definitely a -wah sound not -oh-ah.

JG it might be me not being able to translate the sound into letters, I don't know but to me the two names would sound the same at the end and to me that would be oh-ah. All I can say is I use my pronunciation from hearing French judges say it. (We have quite often French judges for our breed champ shows.) But I don't speak a word of French!!

Do you mean oh-ah as in 'noir'?  So not quite two different syllables but you can still hear both sounds, rather than the straight 'wah'.

I say 'oh-ah' as in the name Noah - two clear syllables (like 'knower'). My French SiL says 'noir' as 'nwaaaah' and the end syllable of François as a shorter 'wah'.

It is scary.I often have a gander at various websites or even just ads in the paper and I'm staggered at the amount of people selling pups who can't even spell the breed correctly.which then amazes me that people would go anywhere near them to get a pup......and so the cycle continues.

I try not to be offended when people tell me what lovely 'lurchers' i have.I just say thankyou.
I ve got salukis.And they couldn't look more like salukis if they tried.

Seen on one of the big puppy sales sites.
Yet another knowledgeable breeder - " Mam and dad have same parents but are from different litters." They don't seem sure what colour the puppies are because they are changing daily but they are quite dark!!
Predictably there is absolutely no mention of health tests.

So full siblings mated, and our detractors moan about inbreeding in pedigree dogs.

I know this is an oldish thread but I had to share some puppy adverts I saw today....

Jack Sausage

Dach-huahua

Flandoodle ..I know its not good but the names do kinda crease me up !

WTF is in a Flandoodle?!

grrr a Poodle x Bouvier!!!!   WOW I bet that that cross could be quite hard work.

flandoodle :/ i cant imagine that tasting very good lol !