I have searched but nothing has come up, what is everyone's opinion on this?

Article here. http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/68280

I am interested in this as I'm planning on mating my girl but can't decide between two studs, and potentially this could "solve" the decision.

it seems to be something the KC here is encouraging possibly due to their restrictions on litters but not something I'd consider, or really I'd like someone to do if they wanted to use a stud dog of mine (although they may not tell me!) of course you'd have to have the litter dna tested before registering the births.  It may encourage you to keep two if you couldn't decide, but why not use one stud dog now and the other later? the only thing I could think of which may be useful is if you took a bitch abroad and wanted to use two stud dogs, knowing my luck it wouldn't work :-(

Gosh that's interesting. It's not something I have ever heard of. I'm not sure I like the idea tbh, I think I like to know who each pups Dad is right from the beginning! Interesting the KC are wanting to extend the gene pool; kind of adds to the debate on whether only bitches and dogs who have been successful in shows should be bred from - quite a small gene pool then within a breed. Something the KC obviously see as a problem.

> kind of adds to the debate on whether only bitches and dogs who have been successful in shows should be bred from - quite a small gene pool then within a breed. Something the KC obviously see as a problem.

Which breed do you mean?  I can't imagine many breeds will need to adopt this practice but one I was involved in a few years ago suggested all healthy bitches be bred from but it was a breed producing less than a hundred puppies a year so rather a special case.

Think most have advocated shown or worked rather than just shown Benjiw :-)

I should have said "breed club suggested" in my last post :)

It doesn't seem to cause a problem in the countries that routinely do it, so I think it is a good idea - it isn't going to be something every body will do for every mating but I can see it has its place.

I like the idea of it because it means potentially a bitch could have a single pregnancy/whelping which will cut the associated risks - I'd be curious to see what (health) negatives it could bring though?

Penny - for me any dog I use on the mainland is essentially going abroad for - involving fairly careful planning and long drives which maybe aren't quite as simple as it is for mainlanders (but definately not as awkward as using a dog in europe) so that reason is another to consider it!

Two stud fees and no guarentee that puppies would be from both sires  then of course chance of transmitting infections so probably all dogs and bitch concerned swabbed before mating just to start with.

It is something I am considering. I am hoping to bring some semen in from the USA later this year and have thought about using a stud over here as well in case the AI mating doesn't take. My only concern is that not knowing how the fertilisation of eggs works exactly would there be a risk of the "naturally introduced" semen somehow  have an advantage and fertilse the eggs in preference to the AI semen so would I get more pups from the natural mating than the AI? And of course I would want to keep a puppy from both studs...

As for dual sired litters being somehow wrong, they are actually quite normal in dogs as a bitch will naturally mate with more than one dog if she gets the chance. I think the distaste comes from our human preference for sticking to one partner at a time.

I don't see it as a problem where there is a limited gene pool. Especially now that we have DNA testing available. I wish to use an older dog next year, but there will be no guarantee that he will still be fertile then. I could consider using a younger dog as well, just to make sure that the bitch was actually pregnant. Or what if your bitch is getting to the end of her breeding programme and you can't decide which dog to use, especially if she has missed. A lot of thought would have to go into it first though.

There have been instances where a bitch was mated by 2 dogs (her choice not the owners ;-) ) and DNA has been used to clarify things, so the KC are just saying that it is now ok to do a double mating.

Dual sire matings are not uncommon in Silken Windhounds as a means to increase the gene pool without bitches having to have too many litters, as all silkens are dna tested anyway it's not a problem to them.

A friend had a pup booked from a dual sire mating and the dna tests came back saying that neither planned dog was the sire, dad turned out to be a 3rd dog the bitch had somehow got access to without the owners knowledge, another good reason to dna test every pup even if you didn't think it was necessary.

not aimed at any postee

I believe if you cant choose between 2 sires then the litter shouldnt be bred at all...one has to choose between 2 dogs in the show ring, for the CC or any other award, so no different in my book.

In rare breeds where every bitch of a suitable quality should be bred than using two sires means increasing the genepool without the bitch having to have extra litters :-)

Not much comes up when searching the subject, this is something I was doing a month ago :)
We travelled abroad and both males compliment my bitch and her lines and come from different lines to each other.
It was not a case of "can not decide which one" but both are good.
I can not see any reason why it should be frowned upon, can't see any reasons why somebody would be doing it for any other reason than trying to benefit the breed...

There would be no need in a breed such as yours but I can see the sense of it in one like my own providing you can find two sires that would be suitable for your bitch it can be difficult enough to find one that offers a good combination.

Can also understand using it if using AI as the failure rate is high and the period the bitch may have for breeding short, you may not be able to waste a season or two.

Not directed at any postees

In my opinion, it is not the way forward & another mistake by the KC. I am entitled to my opinion, wether folk agree with it or not!

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, this is a discussion forum, we're discussing it :-)

Why don't you think it's the way forward? The 'not being able to choose' between males would I'd imagine hardly ever be the case, it's more a case of one litter being able to provide 2 lots of new genes :-)

I am entitled to my opinion

Anyone is entitled to their own opinion but that is not what you said in your first post and it is that post that I replied too.

you said "I believe if you cant choose between 2 sires then the litter shouldnt be bred at all...one has to choose between 2 dogs in the show ring, for the CC or any other award, so no different in my book." that was what I replied to not anything to do with your opinion.

In my opinion, I do not think it has anything to do with choosing a stud it is to do with widening the gene pool - not needed in your breed but is needed in mine.

But that is my opinion...I understand others will disagree

But that is my opinion...I understand others will disagree

But we are not talking about being able to choose a stud we are talking about increasing the gene pool - so what is your opinion on increasing the gene pool because unless I have missed something you have only stated that people should be able to choose a stud, no doubt they can do that, their problem is not choosing a stud but increasing the gene pool.

> But that is my opinion...I understand others will disagree

We're trying to understand your opinion :-) If a dual sire mating is done to increase the gene pool in a breed that needs a wider gene pool why do you think this isn't a good thing?

I can see so many good reasons for something like this and can not see a single true negative reason why not, except the cost for the person doing it :)
In the end, it is like using two different studs at different seasons but it is done in one litter?

If it is to be older bitches last litter and there are still two boys you feel would suit the bitch, you can use both and get 2 different combinations to go forward with :)

If one male is older and the sperm quality is not top knotch you have not missed a season or two trying and ending up with nothing (in the end older males have got lot to give, more "data available" about their health, possible previous offspring etc). This is actually one of the main reasons for people who I know who have used the double mating. Especially with bigger breeds, the time period you have for "using a girl" does not allow for multiple goes and bitch missing over and over again if you would like to have more than one litter from her. There are many benefits of using an older dog, people are ready to give it a go and hope they get an offspring but covering the bitch with another male means the whole season is not "missed" in trying the older dog.

If you have travelled very far and wish to try to bring in more than just one lot of "genes", in the end most people travel for this very reason, to bring something "new" in to be used in the future? The cost of travelling to a stud can amount to lot of money if the distance travelled is great...

It can give you an opportunity to see what lines might go well with your girl, if you are "out crossing" and using totally different lines and not sure what the outcome will be... This is if you are not line breeding or doing something everybody else is doing so might have some idea of the possible outcome. It might help in selecting the stud for the next litter(out of the ones you have already thought about) as if all offspring of a bitch for example show certain "area needing improvement" in that mixed litter, next time you could search for a boy who is known to usually improve on that area.

If a problem surfaces with one of the studs later and you feel you should pull the offspring from being used,you have not lost a whole litter of pups but still have some usable "material".  It can be a large number losing 10 pups out of going forwards if not that many registered over all.

just few positives I can think of, I'm sure there are many more...

I see the comments aboit not breeding if you cant pick one but the reason I am struggling to choose between two dogs is both compliment her but one is ISDS and the other show line.. VERY different but both bringing different elements and are not like for like comparable. The breed is popular and personally I can't help thinking a dual sired litter would be a good thing - Some ISDS bred dogs/lines are not suited for general pet homes and only having a % of a litter to rehome in more specialist homes is a good thing

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">It doesn't seem to cause a problem in the countries that routinely do it, so I think it is a good idea - it isn't going to be something every body will do for every mating but I can see it has its place.

I can't see anyone doing it for the hell of it.  It has occured when there have been accidental matings to find who the sire of each pup is.

There are the logistics of getting the bitch and two males together and mated at optimum times.

There would be two stud fees, and sets of travelling costs etc.

From a stud dog owners point of view they could go to a lot of trouble and by simple chance none of the pups be by their dog.  They in all fairness would still need to be compensated in some way?

Certainly in breeds that have huge litters it would be a better use of the bitches limited (4 litters) breeding potential.

In the USA it does seem to be used most often when one sire is used by AI, and the other is back up, or an aging stud dog backed up by a younger in hopes of at least getting a litter.  The one least likely to succeed is used at the most optimum time and the other after.

I was offered the choice of this when I went abroad to use a stud, but declined (the dogs were litter brothers, but quite different from each other)..

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">only having a % of a litter to rehome in more specialist homes is a good thing

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if it would work out that way, could end up with all pups by one dog, statistically, like with split of sexes, there should be 50/50 chance of each siring, but we all know of single sex litters etc.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I think the distaste comes from our human preference for sticking to one partner at a time.

Anyone who regulary watches Jeremy Kyle, Springer, etc will realise that doesn't always hold true with the shock  DNA test results.

"Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if it would work out that way, could end up with all pups by one dog, statistically, like with split of sexes, there should be 50/50 chance of each siring, but we all know of single sex litters etc. "

Yup, but at least using two sires increases the chance of them being mixed!!