Has anyone tried or heard of John Rogerson's method of not letting a dog aggressive dog be in the vicinity of another dog for 6 weeks working ?.
I've always been intrigued by this, and now I just have little Daisy, I thought it would be worth a go and should be easy enough to do.

For those who've never come across this, John tells any clients with dog on dog aggression to keep the culprit away from all other dogs, including house mates and friends for 6 weeks before he takes them on, he reckons that this will sort the problem with no need for him in the majority of cases.

I've never heard this before and have been on several of his courses/got his book etc. Would be interesting to see how he re-introduces said dog to other dogs when the 6 weeks are up. Presumably it's done to reduce arousal levels/interrupt the dog practising aggression etc but a lot really depends on the skills of the owners at reading their dogs (not something JP is that good at in all honesty) and knowing what the dog can cope with and how to handle situations without them escalating into violence.

He mentioned it at a seminar on dog aggression and it's in The Dog Vinci Code right at the end.
I've just checked in the book and it's 5 weeks he suggests not 6.
I think it's worth a try, but as you say, the reintroduction will have to be very carefully arranged.

Daisy won't try to approach another dog, she'll even walk past a quiet one, it's when they romp up to her or bark that she can't cope and resorts to aggression.
I should add, this hasn't happened for a good few years as I do my best not to put her in that situation.

I read about this in the Dog Vinci Code by JR but I took it mean you apply this when you have one or more dogs living together and one is aggressive.  Then you separate it in the home from the other house dogs.

If you have a single dog that is aggressive to others I'm not sure if avoiding them while you're out and about would have the same effect.

Does either situation apply to you?

Sort off, until a few weeks ago I had 2 dogs, sadly I had to have one pts, so now I have little Daisy who is the aggressive one.

I see what you mean though, I took it to mean aggression to dogs other than a housemate, certainly that's how i took it at the seminar.

Hi Celli

I've just got the book out to check for you and its Section 7.  He describes a lady ringing him and asking for help for her dog aggressive dog and he asks about her other, older dog.  She is amazed that he knows there is another dog and he explains that there invariably is and its the younger one who has the aggression problem.  He puts it down to the younger dog having too much time with the influence of the older dog, playing aggressively together and becoming almost a  'feral' dog that has little influence or input from the owner. 

I'm not sure how true to life it is as I've had a multi-dog household for years and none of mine are dog aggressive and I'm sure others here will say the same. 

Maybe it depends on how experienced the owners of multi dogs are or how much time they manage to spend building individual relationships with each of the dogs as to whether they get problems or not.

Not been to any of his seminars so not sure if it comes across differently there than in the book.

I too have had multi dog household ( this is the first time in 13 years I've had only one ) and this is the first time I've had a problem.
TBH, I should have just walked away from Daisy's litter, but hey ho, she's mine now.

Looking back I can see where the problems have started. Playing pretty rough games with Spud ( same breed, SBT ), and a spate of attacks on her by mainly small dogs in groups ( it's only small dogs she has a problem with ) when she was at that "delicate " age, plus bad breeding.
I'd honestly never had a problem with dog aggression in previous SBT's, so Daisy came as a bit of a surprise.
She used to be fantastic with other dogs, but that very quickly unravelled when the attacks started, despite me trying to protect her and her doing everything in the puppy handbook to ingratiate herself.
It's a shame as otherwise, she's perfect, fantastic round adults and kids, cat's, livestock, and in busy town's, nothing fazes her.

I'll give the exclusion plan a go as a starting point and start a methodical careful reintroduction from there.

I take your point about building an individual relationship with a dog, and I'd say she and I do have a very strong bond, she's certainly very good at obedience, very fast at responding, and as I don't work, I was/am with my dogs the majority of the time.

Thanks for taking the time to pick through the Daisy problem with me :-)

I do explain to puppy owners that they need to be very careful how they let their puppies play/who they allow them to play with. Too much rough and tumble with other dogs (esp bigger ones so the pup learns he has to come out fighting - not literally - to hold his own/to win the game) can cause pup to become over-excited in the presence of other dogs and to think he has to play rough as this is what all dogs do, as he sees it. A lot depends on the pup's temperament too - if they've got in them to be 'sharp' or reactive, it doesn't take much to set it off.

Conversely, a pup can also be taught to become aggressive through this type of play if he feels overwhelmed, can't get away from the boisterous older dog and the owner doesn't step in to part them. Pup then feels he needs to get the first attack in or to warn off the other dog.

Hi Celli

There sems to be a bit more here than dogs playing boisterously because Daisy has been 'attacked' more than once aswell and that will influence her response to other dogs.

She may feel that when she meets other dogs she has to get the first attack in as a means of defence!  So you may need to do some de-sensitisation with her around other dogs.

But going back to the principle of 'isolating' aggressive dogs from other other dogs I seem to remember that when J Fennels TV series went out on Channel 5 a few years back, she also used to advise owners of dog aggressive dogs (not necessarily in multi-dog households) to stop taking their dogs out for 3 or 4 weeks to avoid the problem happening and then to work at home with their dog.  Of course she was very much into being the 'pack leader' and working at home meant putting into practice several of her 'rules'.

Maybe the suggestion of isolation from other dogs for a few weeks to break the habit that's been learned will apply in multi-dog and single dog households.

Yeah, I think the combination of being beaten up over a short period of time ( worst one was a pack of 5 JRT's ) and having learnt WWF Wrestling with Spud has produced a wee dog that has a short fuse and knows how to handle herself.

She remains fine round large dog's, Rotties are a particular favourite, and when I took in Ben ( adult TM ) a few years ago (sadly gone now, another cancer victim ) she got on really well with him, no aggression at all, so I know she still has the ability to have normal interactions with other dog's, it's just convincing her that they're not all out to get her.

> She is amazed that he knows there is another dog and he explains that there invariably is and its the younger one who has the aggression problem.  He puts it down to the younger dog having too much time with the influence of the older dog, playing aggressively together and becoming almost a  'feral' dog that has little influence or input from the owner. 

I'm assuming he means when a pup has been brought in and then becomes aggressive as it matures?  Even so, a very general, sweeping suggestion.  I've had four dogs with dog aggression here, and 3 of them grew up without the presence of other dogs.

Plus, several of mine play very aggressively with each other - Opi, for example, put a 1/4" deep hole in Remy's bum once! - but all are excellent with other dogs (Opi the most of all).

I wonder if perhaps what he's seen is the effect of what I would call pseudo-socialisation - the owner thinking a pup will be adequately socialised with the older resident dogs, so not learning to cope with strange dogs out and about and therefore becoming aggressive.

I wonder if perhaps what he's seen is the effect of what I would call pseudo-socialisation - the owner thinking a pup will be adequately socialised with the older resident dogs, so not learning to cope with strange dogs out and about and therefore becoming aggressive.

Quite possibly, in the book he seems to suggest the time out before he see's the dog, and that often there's no need for the owner to employ him.
I've certainly never come across anyone else suggesting this technique, and if it does work, I wonder how long it would be effective for, hence my original question.
You'd think that if it did work, it would be more widely used, although in a multi-dog house, it would be difficult, and probably involve sending the dog away, not something ( me included ) that most people would be willing to do.

I don't see how it can work for a lot of dogs = those that are aggressive through defense following an attack, those that can't read body language or communicate very well (can't learn that at all if they don't see any dogs for 5 weeks) and so on.

It would certainly drop the stress levels a lot which would help immensely but to then have no problems at all?  I'm struggling to see it myself.

> I've certainly never come across anyone else suggesting this technique, and if it does work, I wonder how long it would be effective for,

I can't see it working.
I had a dog agressive dog years ago, he was very bad, so was muzzled when out. Becasue of his agression we avoided other dogs with him, so it would be rare he would actually get to see another dog (apart from the sister he lived with). Having lots of times between meeting other dogs made no difference to his attitude towards them.

Avoiding other dogs will not combat the underlyng cause of the agression, if behaviour problems were that easy to deal with, the same method could be applied to any problem eg, dog agresive with people = keep away from people and after 5 weeks it will be people-friendly - can't see the logic myself.

Dogs have a great memory, they will not suddenly forget they are dog-agresive simply becasue they don't meet another dog for a few weeks.

My dog is wary of traffic, avoiding traffic will not make him feel any better about it, in fact the oppostie is true as constant, below-threshold, exposure results in habituation - that applies to any 'trigger'.

(apart from the sister he lived with).

Part of this protocol is that the dog is to be kept away from housemates too.

I think what every one is saying is very valid, and I have my doubts too.
Apart from the likely hood of it not working, can anyone see a reason why it would do any harm to try ?. I'm willing to give it a bash but not if it would make matters worse, I'm not even expecting it to cure her as such ( might be daft but I'm not that daft )but just give me a toe hold as it were.

Unfortunately good trainers/behaviourists are ( as far as I can see ) absent from Fife, there is one place I would trust the other side of Edinburgh, but the distance makes it a no go for regular use.

> can anyone see a reason why it would do any harm to try

Possibly make matters worse, but maybe do nothing atall.  Your dog must be used to seeing other dogs, even if it is only in the distance. It will only be when they push her past her comfort zone (how close a dog needs to be to make your dog feel the need to become aggresive) that she reacts. Dogs that do not push her past her comfort zone are maintainging some sort of socialisation/habituation for her (I see that dog in the distance, but I'm not bothered = dogs in the distance mean nothing).
By taking away that habituation/socialisation, there is a chance that all dogs could then become frightening after a break from seeing any - remeber she obviously is not overly happy with ALL dogs at ANY given distance, imagine if after ZERO canine exposure (not even seeing no-threat dogs in the distance) that suddenly she finds herself face to face with a dog. She will have no recent good/neutral memories to rely on.
I may be completely way off the mark with that notion, but I would not stop my dogs exposure to something he had a problem with, when that thing will be encountered at random, uncontrollable times in his life.
A desensitisation programme would be a better route to take. I did have a great link for this sort of thing, but it was on my PC that died. If I can find it again on google, I'll post it.

ETA, here it is: https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm

Just had a look at the only guy i would consider http://www.action4dogs.co.uk/index.html  including travel costs, I could get a home visit from him for about £100....that would be money well spent I think.

Right, I'm now seriously thinking about getting Max in.
What's stopping me is, I'm sure he'll do the under threshold stuff, which I can do already on my own.But even so, a fresh pair of eyes and more experience than I have would still be worth the money.
The problem is, the places round here that are common walking area's tend to be populated by out of control dogs, it seems that to the GP, if you live rurally, there's no need to control your dog, so I'm unsure if taking Daisy into those area's would be a good idea, doing anything under threshold would be impossible.

Any thought's ?. I feel like I'm going round and round in circles !

I might try this with my youngest. She is becoming a real pain going for my two older bitches (both spayed) and has now started being nippy with other dogs at shows too - never in the ring but a few times ring side she has started her nonsense and had to be told off. She never tries it on with her mum who she sometimes meets at shows or with any dogs when she is off lead but it is a pain and she does spend a lot of her time with my big dogs. It seems to be jealousy more than anything as she can't bear to share toys or chews or human food or my OH although she isn't aggressive with her meals.
One thing that would concern me though is that she usually starts when we get back from a show so she hasn't been with the big girls for a few hours or overnight. Would she be better or worse than ever if she was away from them for 5 weeks I wonder? A squirt of water stops her so we have never had a full blown fight but she is such a feisty wee madam it's a shame for the big girls. I may have to investigate this further too...

Where do you walk your dog Celli? I live in Fife too and we have found a really quiet walk near the bottom of west lomond that we rarely meet other dogs on. If that would be any good to you I could give you directions - though you might meet my mutts occasionally but you would know because our car would be parked at the end of the walk :-)

> there's no need to control your dog, so I'm unsure if taking Daisy into those area's would be a good idea,

Yep, you're right, that would not do Daisy any good at all.

Pity you dont live near me, the people that let thier dogs pester others change thier mind when they see Buster coming and put thier dog on lead (even if it means chasing after them at top speed!). Buster could act as a sort of force-field against them and being a big 'un she wouldn't be afraid of him.

Do you know anybody with a large/intimidating looking, friendly, dog, that other people will avoid, so you can walk Daisy with it?

I walk in the Lomonds too !, I think you might be on one of my walks !...is it the one near Gateside ?(thats where I live), there's so many different ways onto the hill it's hard to tell which is which.
My problem isn't finding quiet walks ( I'm an expert at that lol) it's if I embark on a desensitisation program, finding area's that do have dogs, but not where they will charge up to her and undo any progress we've made.
I also don't want her to practise her behaviour any more than she has...practise does make perfect, and she's already pretty quick to turn into a snarling beasty as it is.

I've just realised who you are - I'm at the other end of the village - Bernese - Gordon Setter - PBGV :-D Next door to the school. Did you have a LH GSD and a Tibetan Mastiff at one time? I think you lost the GSD not long after I lost Dakko? I saw you the other night when I was driving through the village and wondered why you only had one dog with you! My OH walks the girls up at the path beside Lappie Moss cottage and in the forest behind 'Muchty

Do you know anybody with a large/intimidating looking, friendly, dog, that other people will avoid, so you can walk Daisy with it?

No unfortunately,It's one of the many reason's I miss Ben the TM, he was a great bodyguard, most of the dogs I know are either of unsound temperament themselves or are small terriers, which is her main worry.

I know given the right conditions she can do this, just a few weeks ago she calmly walked past a mini Schnauzer ( about 12 feet away)she was on-lead and because the other dog ignored her, she managed to walk past, admittedly, with lots of glances to me for  guidance, but she still did it.

I've just realised who you are - I'm at the other end of the village - Bernese - Gordon Setter - PBGV  Next door to the school. Did you have a LH GSD and a Tibetan Mastiff at one time? I think you lost the GSD not long after I lost Dakko? I saw you the other night when I was driving through the village and wondered why you only had one dog with you! My OH walks the girls up at the path beside Lappie Moss cottage and in the forest behind 'Muchty

OMG !!..yes, I know who you are now !lol. Talk about a small world !.
Yes, sadly I lost both Ben, and my Spuddy within 4 months of each other. Ben used to right fancy your Bernese.

Celli, when I get back from dog club (will be after 11pm), I'll have a think about Scottish Obedience competitors in your neck of the woods as they might be willing to help.

> can anyone see a reason why it would do any harm to try ?

For singleton dogs, no - for any dogs, it would really help reduce the stress levels before starting work.  But work would still be needed IMO.

For dogs living with other dogs - yes.  The sheer stress of suddenly being away from the rest of the pack could do more harm than good - singletons wouldn't need any change except where they walk (although some situations would likely dictate that the dog didn't get walked in order to completely avoid other dogs, which in itself could cause problems), but dogs in a group would probably have to be sent elsewhere which could upset them hugely and negate any good the sending away would do.

Dakkobear - please stop squirting her with water.  You say this stops any full blown fights - but it's also adding predictable stress (i.e. the dog starts to anticipate a punishment in certain situations), which in itself which make fights (or attempts to fight) much more likely.  Vicious circle.  Ditto any telling off, punishments of any kind.  You need to work on things in situ in a positive way, improve the relationships.

I would stop taking her to shows for now - it sounds like she is getting stressed in that environment too (possibly a spillover from the stress at home), so a break would likely help.  At home, distract her BEFORE she starts being arsey, and HUGE praise and reward when she comes away - offer her an alternative to do.  Have a houseline on her if need be so you can physically stop her in a neutral way.  I have the same problem with my smallest dog - she is a bit of a bully, doesn't like the others playing with each other or with toys.  She looks like she's enjoying herself when she's doing it but she's actually very stressed.  Correcting her in the past made her 10 times worse, calling her away and giving massive praise, reward and an alternative activity (with me) has improved her brilliantly - to the point that now, if they start playing, 9 times out of 10 her immediate response is to run to me to start playing.  Everyone is much happier as a result.

Celli, when I get back from dog club (will be after 11pm), I'll have a think about Scottish Obedience competitors in your neck of the woods as they might be willing to help.

That would be fantastic, thank you.

Nikita, not wanting to stress Daisy out is the reason I didn't try the exclusion before, but now she's on her own it would be a doddle, where we walk is very carefully chosen, low chance of meeting other dogs, and if there are other dogs, there's a clear view for hundreds of meter's so we have ample time and space to take evasive action and keep Daisy in her comfort zone.

Since it's very recently that we've lost Spud, I wonder if it would be beneficial to her, to allow her time to adjust to life as a singleton before I get any help with her ?.

Thanks for the advice Nikita I will certainly give some of it a go.

In Daisy's case it wouldn't be a massive change and could give her stress levels time to really drop so yes, could be worth a try for her.

I've recently been to some of Johns lectures/seminars..

I can understand where he is coming from, though I think some of his suggestions are wholly impractical for the majority of 'average pet dog owners' and even for a lot of 'not so average dog geeks'..

I do however frequently find myself advising that people take as complete a break as they possibly can, from their dog seeing/interacting with other dogs, when there is a dog aggression problem (and I was doing this long before I read one of Johns books or attended a seminar).

My thinking is that every interaction, whether thats a dog seeing another dog, right up the scale to a dog going to a busy dog park (I talk to a lot of Americans!), causes stress, even those interactions that don't cause a reaction will cause some stress.

Taking a complete break (I usually advise two weeks), from the things the owner knows cause a reaction in most cases helps massively - most people though can't take a complete break, so they are advised to avoid like the plague, turn and go the other way, run if necessary, cross the road, hide behind parked cars, walk in different places or different times of day.

What I ALSO advise though, on top of the avoidance strategy, is that they work on some other stuff. When out and about, they are to watch their dog and figure out their dogs threshold (or critical distance as John says). At home, whilst avoiding all 'bad' stressful things (particularly, dogs being allowed to fence fight, yell at passersby through windows or fences, battle with resident dogs over food or toys etc etc), they are to work on increasing and improving the bond between dog and owner, and also self control (because so many dog aggressive dogs really lack self control) via a variety of positive reinforcement based training/games.

So once that two week period is up (and it might be longer with some dogs and shorter with others, its so hard to cover EVERY possible situation, but then generalising (as John and a lot of others do) leads to a lot of confusion and misunderstanding) - you should then have a much more relaxed dog; a dog who is far more trusting of his owner, because the OWNER decides to take evasive action when another dog appears, theres no waiting for something to kick off; an owner who is far more in tune with their dog..

And th en you have a solid foundation to build on, to fix the problem.

I do also discuss with people what their expectations are, because very often, their expectations are actually pretty unrealistic - for example so many people I talk to want to take their dog to a dog park - a dog park that is small, very busy and does not allow the use of food rewards or toys, and is full of bully-dogs whose owners are not paying attention.

They believe whole-heartedly that their dog NEEDS to interact and be best buddies with complete strangers (dogs that is) and that their dog will suffer if this doesn't happen..

I find a lot of people are actually really relieved to discover they DON'T need to do this and its not at all necessary (I do also point out that  yes, their dog does need to be relaxed and comfortable in the presence of other dogs, I am not suggesting its ok to leave a dog frightened about something!).

So, I can see where John is coming from and I do also agree that particularly for dogs in multi-dog households (but sadly, for a lot of single dogs too), dogs are NOT getting enough one-on-one time with their owners and they are getting far too MUCH time with other dogs, playing dog games and practicing fighting.

Lets not forget too, most of the posters on here are NOT 'average dog owners' - the very act of joining a forum to discuss doggy things puts people at least one step away from 'average dog owner' and nearer to 'dog geek'!

Excellent post theemx :-).

Gaining some self control is certainly needed for Daisy, in normal day to day situations she's fine on that score, she's very good at understanding "no " ( all my dog's have been taught" no" as a command rather than a shouted reprimand ) or "leave". But in moments of stress it goes out the window.
Thinking on it, Daisy's "fight, flight,fart about " reaction is on a hair trigger.
My other Staffie's have been able to take direction and react appropriately in times of stressful situations, Daisy doesn't, she panic's and takes things into her own hands.

I don't imagine Daisy will ever be friendly with every dog she meets, I'd just like to help her be more in control of her fear, and trust me to get her out of fearful situations.

Very true theemx. My personal preference - though I do also discuss this at my club - is for my nine dogs to exercise hard when they are out so off we go with fling-rings and tennis balls. Being collies, they feel they've had a good day at the office by the time they come home. I socialise mine as pups/if I buy a youngster or adult in, and they obviously meet other dogs at shows/training courses etc but when I produce a toy it's game on lol. They (usually, they're not perfect lol) have no interest in other dogs as I've got what they want. That way we can hopefully avoid any potential aggressive meetings or dogs getting bored and going off doing their own thing (usually to the annoyance of other dog walkers). I understand this won't be appropriate with all breeds/temperaments but it works for mine and I suggest to newcomers to club that they try hard to find something their dog loves and to use this on walks to (a) get the dog mentally and physically tired and (b) to keep the dog with them. Could also use scenting games if the dogs aren't interested in toys?

Oh aye, yes - for too many dogs, walks are boring so lets look for something to do - harrassing other dogs is a very exciting thing to do, it's no wonder so many do it.

On the other hand though for many of us our dogs preferred activities are not appropriate in many public places and even the alternatives are often hard to achieve - I have sighthounds, and whilst I am happy for them to catch rabbits and squirrels a lot of people don't want that happening in front of them. Lure coursing is a good alternative, but its not one I can provide every walk in open spaces!

I think also a lot of people want to let their dogs run around and 'play' with other dogs for something to do, because it knackers their dog out nicely - so I find encouraging people to avoid other dogs and spend more time with their dog (and I have a variety of ways of encouraging this!) means they are then pushed to find other ways to work with their dog and keep the dog exercised mentally and physically.

Celli, there are 2 clubs that might be helpful (or be able to refer you on)
1. Leven and District DTC. Sec Gail Green 01337 831 022
2. Knightswood DTC   Jim McIntosh 01698 860 358

Will see if I can find any more

Mxx

Thanks marisa, that's really kind x

Not sure where Knightswood is but I'll have a google and find it.

Just to pick up on a point made earlier about focusing on one to one with the owner, my hound mix lives to run and hunt and be with other dogs.  I spent a good deal of time over summer when we lost my older lab with just her and me (more like 6 months than 6 weeks).  The longer she did not have company and off lead time with other dogs the lower she became and the more reactive to any dog she saw (even a mile away on the horizon) to the point where she was yelping and crying on the end of a lead to try and talk to the other dog.

I am fairly lucky in that she is very friendly and very well socialised - so much so that at dog club she gets used with nervous aggressive dogs as a "friend" 

However I would say that for her she needs to be with other dogs, and it is a real genuine need within her.  No matter how bonded we are, no matter the fun we have, the exciting treats I have or anything else, the call of another dog is so urgent in her it becomes overwhelming if she is denied contact